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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5141 - 2013-10-09 14:27:49 UTC
Just stopping by to say I am still a proponent of bastion.

And the hulls themselves need to be rebalanced to be worth a crap.


Take away range bonuses of hull and make it focus purely on tracking. (good tracking)
Exchange MJD bonus for MWD bonus (cap usage and/or cap penalty)
Give bastion all that extra range

Drop 10% from bastion omni resists and bake it into the hull
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#5142 - 2013-10-09 14:34:42 UTC
Mc Cormeg wrote:
To spread the usefullnes of Marauders in PVP maybe its worthwile to grant the Bastion Module a repair amount bonus not only to loal reps but rather also to RR reps?

That could be lead us to some interessting "triage" warfare with marauder wolfpacks.



That si what I proposed several pages ago. It would give a reason for enemeis to keep shoootign at the mraruders when they enter bastion mode.. because otherwise they would keep repairing allies.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#5143 - 2013-10-09 14:35:59 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Mc Cormeg wrote:
To spread the usefullnes of Marauders in PVP maybe its worthwile to grant the Bastion Module a repair amount bonus not only to loal reps but rather also to RR reps?

That could be lead us to some interessting "triage" warfare with marauder wolfpacks.


It would make them far too powerful.



Nope.. would just make bastion into somehtign useful Because as of now bastion only usage is as BAIT ship. And a too obvious bait ship to even work.

There is no reason why anyone would shoot a battleship in bastion mode when there are other targets around. The remote repair would grant that.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#5144 - 2013-10-09 14:37:43 UTC
Barrogh Habalu wrote:
Mc Cormeg wrote:
To spread the usefullnes of Marauders in PVP maybe its worthwile to grant the Bastion Module a repair amount bonus not only to loal reps but rather also to RR reps?

That could be lead us to some interessting "triage" warfare with marauder wolfpacks.

Only if nothing more but small reppers can be applied to them P



marauders cannot be remote repaired in bastion, so givign them logistic capability woudl not exscalate into somethign overpowered. Would just give the bastion marauders something to be meaningful in a fight. Otherwise the marauders only trick is "being left to be killed by last on the fleet"

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5145 - 2013-10-09 14:43:17 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Barrogh Habalu wrote:
Mc Cormeg wrote:
To spread the usefullnes of Marauders in PVP maybe its worthwile to grant the Bastion Module a repair amount bonus not only to loal reps but rather also to RR reps?

That could be lead us to some interessting "triage" warfare with marauder wolfpacks.

Only if nothing more but small reppers can be applied to them P



marauders cannot be remote repaired in bastion, so givign them logistic capability woudl not exscalate into somethign overpowered. Would just give the bastion marauders something to be meaningful in a fight. Otherwise the marauders only trick is "being left to be killed by last on the fleet"


NO!!!!

A RR fitted and bonused Marauder would do nothing but hurt the rest of us.

As soon as one got used in the Alliance Tournament, they would get the crap nerfed out of them..

And since we all know CCP, they would nerf something that kills the ship, instead of simply removing the RR capability...

Even outside of bastion, their self rep amount means they could cap transfer and be able to tank like a champ and RR with the best of them...

Tinker tanks would be unstoppable.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#5146 - 2013-10-09 14:54:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Kagura Nikon
Joe Risalo wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Barrogh Habalu wrote:
Mc Cormeg wrote:
To spread the usefullnes of Marauders in PVP maybe its worthwile to grant the Bastion Module a repair amount bonus not only to loal reps but rather also to RR reps?

That could be lead us to some interessting "triage" warfare with marauder wolfpacks.

Only if nothing more but small reppers can be applied to them P



marauders cannot be remote repaired in bastion, so givign them logistic capability woudl not exscalate into somethign overpowered. Would just give the bastion marauders something to be meaningful in a fight. Otherwise the marauders only trick is "being left to be killed by last on the fleet"


NO!!!!

A RR fitted and bonused Marauder would do nothing but hurt the rest of us.

As soon as one got used in the Alliance Tournament, they would get the crap nerfed out of them..

And since we all know CCP, they would nerf something that kills the ship, instead of simply removing the RR capability...

Even outside of bastion, their self rep amount means they could cap transfer and be able to tank like a champ and RR with the best of them...

Tinker tanks would be unstoppable.


That is nto true.. Alliance tournament already had in post rules on RR. Like only a single ship in team may have RR. THat can be easily solved

NEVER EVER spoil a ship just because itsd tournament performance.

Also the RR bonus shoudl be in the BASTIOn module, not not he hull.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5147 - 2013-10-09 15:03:36 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Barrogh Habalu wrote:
Mc Cormeg wrote:
To spread the usefullnes of Marauders in PVP maybe its worthwile to grant the Bastion Module a repair amount bonus not only to loal reps but rather also to RR reps?

That could be lead us to some interessting "triage" warfare with marauder wolfpacks.

Only if nothing more but small reppers can be applied to them P



marauders cannot be remote repaired in bastion, so givign them logistic capability woudl not exscalate into somethign overpowered. Would just give the bastion marauders something to be meaningful in a fight. Otherwise the marauders only trick is "being left to be killed by last on the fleet"


NO!!!!

A RR fitted and bonused Marauder would do nothing but hurt the rest of us.

As soon as one got used in the Alliance Tournament, they would get the crap nerfed out of them..

And since we all know CCP, they would nerf something that kills the ship, instead of simply removing the RR capability...

Even outside of bastion, their self rep amount means they could cap transfer and be able to tank like a champ and RR with the best of them...

Tinker tanks would be unstoppable.


That is nto true.. Alliance tournament already had in post rules on RR. Like only a single ship in team may have RR. THat can be easily solved

NEVER EVER spoil a ship just because itsd tournament performance.

Also the RR bonus shoudl be in the BASTIOn module, not not he hull.


It would be the only logi ship, but cap transfer is not part of logi consideration.

Also, it wouldn't be the first ship to get nerfed post AT
Vivi Udan
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#5148 - 2013-10-09 15:31:46 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
Vivi Udan wrote:
IOn a side note, I think the 'transformation' for the Kronos is more like popping the hood on a car and not nearly as impressive as the Golem's transformation.


You think the Golem transformation is impressive?

You have low standards....


"AS impressive" does not mean I LOVE IT I LOVE IT I LOVE IT it simply means it's better than.
Sorry for the misunderstanding.

The Mittani of House GoonWaffe, First of His name, King of the Goons and VFK, Master of griefing, Lord of the CFC, Warden of the West, and Protector of Deklein.
Shantetha
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#5149 - 2013-10-09 15:35:19 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Mc Cormeg wrote:
To spread the usefullnes of Marauders in PVP maybe its worthwile to grant the Bastion Module a repair amount bonus not only to loal reps but rather also to RR reps?

That could be lead us to some interessting "triage" warfare with marauder wolfpacks.


It would make them far too powerful.


so make bastion apply -50% to remote reps, you still get em but they would be significantly less powerful for you then local reps. Really the no remote assistance is a killer for both pvp and pve fleets.
CCP Ytterbium
C C P
C C P Alliance
#5150 - 2013-10-09 15:54:22 UTC
Quoting myself not to leave you in the dark.

CCP Ytterbium wrote:
So far, what I can see based on the actual testing of those ships, is that the Bastion mode is good, but that the hulls were most likely nerfed a bit too much.

I agree with the drone flexibility - while I don't see them necessarily keep the TQ bandwidth, they can use moar dronebay.

Also considering reverting some of the other hull nerfs, will let you know when we have more details (we aren't going to change their role though). And sorry to say, but version 2 with web bonuses is not coming back, it just didn't fit that well with the role and Bastion mode.
NexusWatcher
Perkone
Caldari State
#5151 - 2013-10-09 16:03:04 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Quoting myself not to leave you in the dark.

CCP Ytterbium wrote:
So far, what I can see based on the actual testing of those ships, is that the Bastion mode is good, but that the hulls were most likely nerfed a bit too much.

I agree with the drone flexibility - while I don't see them necessarily keep the TQ bandwidth, they can use moar dronebay.

Also considering reverting some of the other hull nerfs, will let you know when we have more details (we aren't going to change their role though). And sorry to say, but version 2 with web bonuses is not coming back, it just didn't fit that well with the role and Bastion mode.



That makes me happy. (Unless you just change the web to more range as opposed to velocity...then it would be worth it's weight in ISKies) But I agree the hulls themselves need to be modified albeit slightly.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5152 - 2013-10-09 16:16:31 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Quoting myself not to leave you in the dark.

CCP Ytterbium wrote:
So far, what I can see based on the actual testing of those ships, is that the Bastion mode is good, but that the hulls were most likely nerfed a bit too much.

I agree with the drone flexibility - while I don't see them necessarily keep the TQ bandwidth, they can use moar dronebay.

Also considering reverting some of the other hull nerfs, will let you know when we have more details (we aren't going to change their role though). And sorry to say, but version 2 with web bonuses is not coming back, it just didn't fit that well with the role and Bastion mode.


HIP HIP HURRAY!!!!
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#5153 - 2013-10-09 16:19:57 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Quoting myself not to leave you in the dark.

CCP Ytterbium wrote:
So far, what I can see based on the actual testing of those ships, is that the Bastion mode is good, but that the hulls were most likely nerfed a bit too much.

I agree with the drone flexibility - while I don't see them necessarily keep the TQ bandwidth, they can use moar dronebay.

Also considering reverting some of the other hull nerfs, will let you know when we have more details (we aren't going to change their role though). And sorry to say, but version 2 with web bonuses is not coming back, it just didn't fit that well with the role and Bastion mode.



My personal problem is not with that. Is with fact aht bastion module is a powerful for nothign module. THere is hardly a situation where this module makes sense. Increased defenses in a falacious way (falacious because nto be remote repaired is more of a nerf than a bufff) is nto relevant. When a marauder get in bastion mode people will just shoot the other ships, because the bastion marauder is not more dangerous in bastion mode than outside.. it is LESS dangerous!!

A commitment like the "sieging" of the bastion mode should come with an increase in threat factor of the ship. The modest buffs on the projection are not enough for that.

You can already tank a level 4 with 1 shield booster and 1 resit module and an AB, so there is no reason why i would ever get into bastion mode! In PVP its even worse situation. On other high end PVE, the huge alpha strike of sleepers for example make the marauder too prone to vaporization before the bastion can save it.

That last situation could be fixed if the ship received more base EHP, but the others need an increase in threat of the ship while in bastion mode to make sense.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#5154 - 2013-10-09 16:27:22 UTC
Shantetha wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Mc Cormeg wrote:
To spread the usefullnes of Marauders in PVP maybe its worthwile to grant the Bastion Module a repair amount bonus not only to loal reps but rather also to RR reps?

That could be lead us to some interessting "triage" warfare with marauder wolfpacks.


It would make them far too powerful.


so make bastion apply -50% to remote reps, you still get em but they would be significantly less powerful for you then local reps. Really the no remote assistance is a killer for both pvp and pve fleets.


Not when they can rep 25% of their armour back every cycle. They can tank many of the small gangs that are out there.
Taegessia
Doomheim
#5155 - 2013-10-09 16:28:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Taegessia
Currently on TQ, max range with torpedos rage is 43.2 km with a CNR using :

1 x 5% hardwiring velocity or flight time, doesnt matter which
1 x T2 velocity Rig
1 x T2 flight time Rig
1 x T1 flight time or velocity Rig , doesnt matter which

As long as you don't use 2 x T2 Rigs of the same type (velociry or flight time) you won't get stack penaltized.
All velocity\flight time relevant skills maxed.

In the same sense and with 1 less T1 Range rig slot, the respective TQ max range with torpedos rage for Golem is 38.2 km

** Im unable to test so would appreciate a little feedback on this. If the bastion 25% range bonus is stack penaltized then it becomes aproximately a 21.75% bonus, applying it to the TQ Golem makes its max range with rage torpedos 46.6 km. If its not stack penaltized then its 47.8 km. In either way, PvE wise, its not a bad increase at all, taking into account the huge dps increase with rage torps (in conjuction with tp duration changes).Only a few npc battleships try to orbit you above 45km (<= 51 km).I can imagine fom now getting in L4 rooms with javeling torps at start,clear the more distant targets and then when everything is below say 46-47km switch to bastion\rage and clear the rest.That might be enough to help finish the tougher L4 missions faster.

Ofcourse im not sure if the numbers above are accurate, can anyone confirm?

"Please add an option to automatically repackage & stack our currently unpackaged items in our item hangar".
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#5156 - 2013-10-09 16:29:08 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Quoting myself not to leave you in the dark.

CCP Ytterbium wrote:
So far, what I can see based on the actual testing of those ships, is that the Bastion mode is good, but that the hulls were most likely nerfed a bit too much.

I agree with the drone flexibility - while I don't see them necessarily keep the TQ bandwidth, they can use moar dronebay.

Also considering reverting some of the other hull nerfs, will let you know when we have more details (we aren't going to change their role though). And sorry to say, but version 2 with web bonuses is not coming back, it just didn't fit that well with the role and Bastion mode.


Perhaps a tad more CPU too?

There are all of those spare high slots but we cant fit much in themUgh
Vorseger
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#5157 - 2013-10-09 16:30:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Vorseger
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Quoting myself not to leave you in the dark.

CCP Ytterbium wrote:
So far, what I can see based on the actual testing of those ships, is that the Bastion mode is good, but that the hulls were most likely nerfed a bit too much.

I agree with the drone flexibility - while I don't see them necessarily keep the TQ bandwidth, they can use moar dronebay.

Also considering reverting some of the other hull nerfs, will let you know when we have more details (we aren't going to change their role though). And sorry to say, but version 2 with web bonuses is not coming back, it just didn't fit that well with the role and Bastion mode.


What is their role?

I am feeling the same along the lines of drones. If dropping dps with drone; could that little loss in dps be looked into some other form of compensation to the ship (damage preferably)?

Bastion module benefits some ships more than others due to stacking penalties. Any chance this will be looked into before the expansion or possibly in one of the first few patches after the expansion?
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5158 - 2013-10-09 16:35:13 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Quoting myself not to leave you in the dark.

CCP Ytterbium wrote:
So far, what I can see based on the actual testing of those ships, is that the Bastion mode is good, but that the hulls were most likely nerfed a bit too much.

I agree with the drone flexibility - while I don't see them necessarily keep the TQ bandwidth, they can use moar dronebay.

Also considering reverting some of the other hull nerfs, will let you know when we have more details (we aren't going to change their role though). And sorry to say, but version 2 with web bonuses is not coming back, it just didn't fit that well with the role and Bastion mode.


Perhaps a tad more CPU too?

There are all of those spare high slots but we cant fit much in themUgh


and PG....

My Golem has almost maxed CPU and PG with two empty high slots that I can't even fit a salvager in....
Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#5159 - 2013-10-09 16:40:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Mer88
Taegessia wrote:
Currently on TQ, max range with torpedos rage is 43.2 km with a CNR using :

1 x 5% hardwiring velocity or flight time, doesnt matter which
1 x T2 velocity Rig
1 x T2 flight time Rig
1 x T1 flight time or velocity Rig , doesnt matter which

As long as you don't use 2 x T2 Rigs of the same type (velociry or flight time) you won't get stack penaltized.
All velocity\flight time relevant skills maxed.

In the same sense and with 1 less T1 Range rig slot, the respective TQ max range with torpedos rage for Golem is 38.2 km

** Im unable to test so would appreciate a little feedback on this. If the bastion 25% range bonus is stack penaltized then it becomes aproximately a 21.75% bonus, applying it to the TQ Golem makes its max range with rage torpedos 46.6 km. If its not stack penaltized then its 47.8 km. In either way, PvE wise, its not a bad increase at all, taking into account the huge dps increase with rage torps (in conjuction with tp duration changes).Only a few npc battleships try to orbit you above 45km (<= 51 km).I can imagine fom now getting in L4 rooms with javeling torps at start,clear the more distant targets and then when everything is below say 46-47km switch to bastion\rage and clear the rest.That might be enough to help finish the tougher L4 missions faster.

Ofcourse im not sure if the numbers above are accurate, can anyone confirm?


for golem, i think you get max range with 2x flight time T2 rigs. So bastion vel dont get stacked. also, you get better range with flight time rigs due acceleration having lesser affect on flight time than velocity
Sentient Blade
Crisis Atmosphere
Coalition of the Unfortunate
#5160 - 2013-10-09 16:40:20 UTC
Having played about a little earlier on, I found that the Bastion module dropping your speed to 0 is basically a suicide-switch vs anyone that has even basic funding (read: can deploy a dreadnaught or two) as they're just getting blapped over and over on SISI when we're flying them into the testing area.

The tanking seemed pretty good, a dual-XLASB Golem tanked a hell of a lot... but still, it died in a hurry vs even a single dread. I suspect a single rail moros or nag could take out an entire fleet of bastion fit ships, with them having no hope of retaliating.