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Balancing: Caldari Hybrid Shield vs. Amarr Laser Armor

Author
Moonaura
The Dead Rabbit Society
#21 - 2011-11-16 16:48:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Moonaura
Abesch Klaridon wrote:
Considering the fact that ehp does not take into consideration damage types and only works from overall resistances, nor does it consider signature or shield recharge rates, neither does it consider incoming reps or local reps; This post could be significantly shortened by just asking for 'ehp' to be redifined so your 'calculations' actually mean something.


Just to clarify and show the math of shield recharge rates. In a buffer fit, while a shield tank is getting a free passive 'tank' recharge, the Vulture - the largest buffer of any of the fits and so offers the best passive tank, only gets 460 hp recharge tank with hardners overloaded, 420 with them off. The other thing to note about the mechanics of how shields recharge, is that they don't do do their peak recharge rate until there has been a significant amount of damage already taken to the shields, and there is a drop off point, where below a certain percentage, the peak recharge drops dramatically and is ineffective, this varies from ship to ship, but peak recharge tends to kick in around 40 to 20%.

So, typically, being shot at by a single battleship, the passive tank on a vulture tends to average around 200 recharge per second say... which gives it about 12000 extra hit points over a whole minute. Even if you were to double that number and claim that the passive shields were recharging at near perfect rate for the whole duration, you're still only talking 24,000 ehp extra per minute, which means it would have to be shot at for around 14-16 minutes at peak recharge to make up the difference from the Damnations tank - and that is just one ship, doing about 400 DPS to the Vulture at the peak recharge rate.

In fleet combat, we tend to call out primary targets which everyone then shoots to kill that ship quicker than it can get repaired, which means you have 10-100 ships shooting at you at any one point. Technically speaking, the passive tank can go whistle for all the good it does in this scenario; It has absolutely no bearing on tank numbers, and makes up a tiny tiny percentage of where the real tank is delivered from - Basilisks with remote shield transfers. What comes into play in this scenario is EHP - to survive the initial damage before you get repaired - and the Resistance numbers - which increases your actual tanking number when the Basilisks are already giving you shield transfer.

This is why it is these two areas that need bring into balance, because even with a like for like EHP and Resistance to Amarr, the Caldari will still be at disadvantage, because of their far larger signature size and lower overall DPS. While the Basilisks fifth large shield transfer helps balance that out, the DPS still matters. But at least through good FC'ing and tactics, fights could be won with Caldari if they had similar EHP and Resistances, where as at present, it is not worth undocking them. This is my hope, not because I am a Caldari fanboi - but because variety, is the spice of life and EvE needs more spice.

"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans 

Ahazu Sagam
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#22 - 2011-11-16 17:49:06 UTC
Do you ever considered that shild ships do not need that much buffer in a RR gang, cause shild transfer boosts at the beginn of the cycle, not at the end like armor. You need 5 more seconds to repair a guardian or damnation (compared to shild stuff) thats why you need more buffer to compensate for this extra time untill the rep kicks off.
What mathers than is the resistance and there is no real difference between them.
Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#23 - 2011-11-16 17:59:05 UTC
This is why shield tank high DPS is king in fleets currently.

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.

Moonaura
The Dead Rabbit Society
#24 - 2011-11-16 19:14:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Moonaura
Ahazu Sagam wrote:
Do you ever considered that shild ships do not need that much buffer in a RR gang, cause shild transfer boosts at the beginn of the cycle, not at the end like armor. You need 5 more seconds to repair a guardian or damnation (compared to shild stuff) thats why you need more buffer to compensate for this extra time untill the rep kicks off.
What mathers than is the resistance and there is no real difference between them.


I am aware of it, and mentioned this in my last post.

It does factor, of course, but you are not factoring into the fight, the higher signature, which means shield ships take more damage, at faster speeds. In addition, armor pilots also have that first warning of the shields going down, to broadcast for armor, shield pilots have to broadcast as soon as they take damage, which in itself can cause confusion for logistics pilots if those ships then turn out they aren't taking significant damage - it is a locked up ship, and maybe a cycle of rep wasted for somebody who was just being shot by a cruiser. If a shield pilot doesn't get shield in time, the armor and structure is worthless to them.

And while the basilisks might also provide that first advantage, to get even close to the Guardians tank numbers, they give up ECCM, so they are either being jammed, melted, or cap drained (they have about 35% less cap stability than guardians when paired) on top of their also, larger signature.

With a claymore in an armour gang, the guardian has the signature of shield frigate, with the EHP of a battleship and the resists of a T2 cruiser. I don't think they should be nerfed, but I do think Caldari should be able to get close to Amarr numbers to make them competitive.

Minmitar get away with shield tanks and the current level of EHP, because they have the speed, slightly smaller signatures and gunnery range to compensate and the DPS to go with it. Caldari aren't built like that, they are designed to slug it out at lower DPS while being slow.

"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans 

Pattern Clarc
Citeregis
#25 - 2011-11-18 22:46:24 UTC
Thread spot on. The Raven probably needs a look too.

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction

Lili Lu
#26 - 2011-11-18 23:52:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Lili Lu
Sorry to **** in the punch at this Caldari party, but, no.

If you want all the good stuff of armor and Amarr then you have to give the stuff you currently enjoy an armor equivalent. Passive regen, a whole ship class with a skewed stat for armor regen, range, damage selection, x-large reppers that fit nonetheless, an armor version of shield boost amps, etc.

The tanking is different. The implants are different. They have always been that way. If CCP fixes the gang bonus to apply immediately after jump that is ok, and if they restrict the effect of slaves on caps and supercaps that is ok. These things make sense and are good for the game. However to introduce all the things shield lack and not introduce what armor lacks will upset the rough balance there is.

The grass is always greener is not the way to view this game. If you fly all the races, as I have characters that do, you come to accept the differences as long as there is no clear imbalance. Damnations and Vultures are both used in their respective pvp fleets.

If anything they are being both stepped on by T3 ships. Especially Tengus which are swimming in CPU and have little problem fitting multiple ganglinks and siting a ss in virtual safety. Try fitting a Loki or a Legion in the ss and multiple link manner and it is not so easy and damn expensive for officer co-pros.

Drakes are not perfect. Or more precisely, if CCP holds to their former statements, it is the ability to project decent damage, at a range that turret ships of the same class cannot match unless fitting tracking mods, and not having to make choices between tank and range. They hinted at a heavy missile range nerf and introduction of mods to boost the range back if it was wanted, that would break up the ease of fitting tank on the Drake. Still waiting on that one and looks like it won't happen now.

In short, no, you can't have the same ehp on a Vulture as a Damnation unless you are going to give an unplated agility and armor regen to the Damnation. See the problem now?

edit- and while it's fun to eft ehp I can think of no situation where it made sense to spend for slave implants for my damnations. You lived or died with your fleet. If the remote reps weren't going to hold you at ~300 ehp without slaves they weren't going to matter with slaves and ~500 ehp. You would still die and would also lose all those shiney implants. Slaves are more a lowsec or supercap thing. The supercap use of slaves may get fixed. In lowsec where your pod cannot get bubbled slaves are fine and balanced with crystals imo.

I flew Damnations, Claymores, Scimis, Basis, Guardians and Oneiroseseses in 0.0. They each had their niche. The Basi being the least used of the lot. Maybe the Basi could benefit from -1 low to +1 medium so as to fit the same tank it has now and an midslot eccm. Regardless, Damnations really aren't all flying around with slave sets so don't sweat it. As I said I can't think of a single situation where a slave set would have saved me. If the logis were killed or driven from the field and I was tackled I was toast either way. And if they were there repping me the extra ehp was not needed tbh.

Also, I never fit a point on my damnation. I was not there to tackle. I dual propped, cap recharg and cap injector to keep the links and tank running, lows full tank, highs links and small acs and ecm drones to try to shake a tackler if I had to.
Opertone
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#27 - 2011-11-19 06:28:42 UTC
Caldari is not flown. Simple as that. Very few enthusiast do it for aesthetic values.

Boost Caldari rail boats somehow, or Caldari in general. Maybe Extra Large Shield extenders (for BS), maybe extra resists bonus 5% to 7.5%/

Ships that shine - Raven (DPS, pve), Cerberus (dps, range, speed), Drake (Insane EHP, tank, range, dmg). All of them are missile ships. Our hybrids are not competitive with other race platforms. Low damage, low speed, low tank, no tackle.

This post sums up why the 'best' work with DCM inc.

WARP DRIVE makes eve boring

really - add warping align time 300% on gun aggression and eve becomes great again

Jaigar
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#28 - 2011-11-19 10:09:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Jaigar
Lili Lu wrote:
Sorry to **** in the punch at this Caldari party, but, no.

If you want all the good stuff of armor and Amarr then you have to give the stuff you currently enjoy an armor equivalent. Passive regen, a whole ship class with a skewed stat for armor regen, range, damage selection, x-large reppers that fit nonetheless, an armor version of shield boost amps, etc.

The tanking is different. The implants are different. They have always been that way. If CCP fixes the gang bonus to apply immediately after jump that is ok, and if they restrict the effect of slaves on caps and supercaps that is ok. These things make sense and are good for the game. However to introduce all the things shield lack and not introduce what armor lacks will upset the rough balance there is.

The grass is always greener is not the way to view this game. If you fly all the races, as I have characters that do, you come to accept the differences as long as there is no clear imbalance. Damnations and Vultures are both used in their respective pvp fleets.

If anything they are being both stepped on by T3 ships. Especially Tengus which are swimming in CPU and have little problem fitting multiple ganglinks and siting a ss in virtual safety. Try fitting a Loki or a Legion in the ss and multiple link manner and it is not so easy and damn expensive for officer co-pros.

Drakes are not perfect. Or more precisely, if CCP holds to their former statements, it is the ability to project decent damage, at a range that turret ships of the same class cannot match unless fitting tracking mods, and not having to make choices between tank and range. They hinted at a heavy missile range nerf and introduction of mods to boost the range back if it was wanted, that would break up the ease of fitting tank on the Drake. Still waiting on that one and looks like it won't happen now.

In short, no, you can't have the same ehp on a Vulture as a Damnation unless you are going to give an unplated agility and armor regen to the Damnation. See the problem now?

edit- and while it's fun to eft ehp I can think of no situation where it made sense to spend for slave implants for my damnations. You lived or died with your fleet. If the remote reps weren't going to hold you at ~300 ehp without slaves they weren't going to matter with slaves and ~500 ehp. You would still die and would also lose all those shiney implants. Slaves are more a lowsec or supercap thing. The supercap use of slaves may get fixed. In lowsec where your pod cannot get bubbled slaves are fine and balanced with crystals imo.

I flew Damnations, Claymores, Scimis, Basis, Guardians and Oneiroseseses in 0.0. They each had their niche. The Basi being the least used of the lot. Maybe the Basi could benefit from -1 low to +1 medium so as to fit the same tank it has now and an midslot eccm. Regardless, Damnations really aren't all flying around with slave sets so don't sweat it. As I said I can't think of a single situation where a slave set would have saved me. If the logis were killed or driven from the field and I was tackled I was toast either way. And if they were there repping me the extra ehp was not needed tbh.

Also, I never fit a point on my damnation. I was not there to tackle. I dual propped, cap recharg and cap injector to keep the links and tank running, lows full tank, highs links and small acs and ecm drones to try to shake a tackler if I had to.

Lame. I hate this board, I just finished a long analysis on comparing out an LSE affects a bassy vs. how a 1600mm plate affects a guardian. I post, then because it took me so long to post it, it didn't actually post and I lost all that data. But I got the basics:
Plated guardian takes 18.2% longer to warp, but only loses 14% top speed (with AB) with a plate, while a bassy gets a 27% sig radius increase from an LSE. Comparing align speed, the bassy aligns in 6.5 sec vs. 8.8 sec on the guardian, which is 35% faster, top speed with a 10mn AB2 is 575 m/s on the bassy vs. 596 m/s on a guardian. Sig radius with a single LSE, 115 vs. 70, which makes the bassy 64% larger.
Max Kolonko
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#29 - 2011-11-19 12:02:18 UTC
Moonaura wrote:

Just to clarify and show the math of shield recharge rates. In a buffer fit, while a shield tank is getting a free passive 'tank' recharge, the Vulture - the largest buffer of any of the fits and so offers the best passive tank, only gets 460 hp recharge tank with hardners overloaded, 420 with them off. The other thing to note about the mechanics of how shields recharge, is that they don't do do their peak recharge rate until there has been a significant amount of damage already taken to the shields, and there is a drop off point, where below a certain percentage, the peak recharge drops dramatically and is ineffective, this varies from ship to ship, but peak recharge tends to kick in around 40 to 20%..


Peak shield recharge spot does not varies between ships, and is somewhere around 30% (dont remember exact number, in my time we did some extensive research back in ferox times, and later when drakes became very popular)


The downside of passive recharge is that when facing alpha ships, even with lower DPS than Your max recharge, You can find Yourself in a situation where first shot will take You way before peak recharge point, and the next already on the other side, so peak recharge will never occur
Moonaura
The Dead Rabbit Society
#30 - 2011-11-19 12:57:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Moonaura
Max Kolonko wrote:
Moonaura wrote:

Just to clarify and show the math of shield recharge rates. In a buffer fit, while a shield tank is getting a free passive 'tank' recharge, the Vulture - the largest buffer of any of the fits and so offers the best passive tank, only gets 460 hp recharge tank with hardners overloaded, 420 with them off. The other thing to note about the mechanics of how shields recharge, is that they don't do do their peak recharge rate until there has been a significant amount of damage already taken to the shields, and there is a drop off point, where below a certain percentage, the peak recharge drops dramatically and is ineffective, this varies from ship to ship, but peak recharge tends to kick in around 40 to 20%..


Peak shield recharge spot does not varies between ships, and is somewhere around 30% (dont remember exact number, in my time we did some extensive research back in ferox times, and later when drakes became very popular)


The downside of passive recharge is that when facing alpha ships, even with lower DPS than Your max recharge, You can find Yourself in a situation where first shot will take You way before peak recharge point, and the next already on the other side, so peak recharge will never occur


Yeah, it has been a long time since I did my math for my Gila fits so appologises for the broad numbers, but yes, if memory serves it is about 32-34% I believe. I know that below that once you go beyond that point, the drop off in recharge is severe.

I will do the math to show why recharge rate is non issue for fleet Caldari ships, and also do the math to show how quickly they would die to an alpha gang, they might even insta pop given they might be lit up like a christmas tree with their signature sizes.

With a request for more EHP there is of course the worry that ships like the Rokh suddenly become a one-vs-one passive tanker, but that could easily be remedied by reducing the recharge rate. The Megathron had a similar nerf a few patches ago, because its shield passive tank was actually far better than it's armor tank! Straight

And sorry you lost your post Jaigar, what you wrote looked solid. I found that going back a page, it is sometimes saved, but I have also got into the habit of copy the text before posting to be safe.

"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans 

Covert Kitty
SRS Industries
#31 - 2011-11-20 07:08:06 UTC
So.. you pick a certain metric, and are surprised when ships designed for that niche do well vs others? Yes Amarr bs's are generally the best fleet bs's. In eve balance is game wide, it's wrong to think of a notion of balance between races, there isn't. You choose to train various races/ships for their various strengths. You don't go and say "I'm a caldari pilot only" you train all of them. Caldari have the Tengu and drake, ravens are the highest dps pos bashing bs in the game, caldari has the best ecm in the game.

forget the whole notion of even balance between races, it doesn't exist, it shouldn't exist.
Moonaura
The Dead Rabbit Society
#32 - 2011-11-20 12:12:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Moonaura
Covert Kitty wrote:
So.. you pick a certain metric, and are surprised when ships designed for that niche do well vs others? Yes Amarr bs's are generally the best fleet bs's. In eve balance is game wide, it's wrong to think of a notion of balance between races, there isn't. You choose to train various races/ships for their various strengths. You don't go and say "I'm a caldari pilot only" you train all of them. Caldari have the Tengu and drake, ravens are the highest dps pos bashing bs in the game, caldari has the best ecm in the game.

forget the whole notion of even balance between races, it doesn't exist, it shouldn't exist.


I appreciate your point of view Covert Kitty, and I agree there should be differences between the races. I am also against homogenisation in the sense they should all be the same, which is why I have stated that Caldari should remain the lowest DPS of all the races and have also said I am not sure giving them a damage bonus for Hybrids is a solution either, which is why it is now awkward the Naga has that 25% bonus, and the Rokh is now 25% worse off.

I would prefer that Caldari can't kill things quickly, but can survive longer to make up for it, therefore offering something different, and naturally quite different from Amarr in the sense they are shield ships with limited mid slots which does change fleet tactics quite a lot.

Specifically I was looking at fleet based ships, such as the Vulture, Basilisk and Rokh. Hybrid ships for Caldari are an issue basically. I believe in those specific ships, there should be balance. While the Tengu is a popular ship, it is also around a billion isk ship, so it should be 'Good' for that sort of ISK. But given that you have brought it up... here are the EHP numbers (Fits in post below) compared to Amarr.

Legion
EHP: 201,064 (overloaded for a very comfortable 4.2 minutes with Damnation bonus)
Resistances: EM 89.1 TH 85.8 KN 84.3 EX 88.9
Signature: 147m
DPS: 614 at 16km OR 438 at 39km
Speed: 565 m/s

Tengu
EHP: 182,756 (overloaded for 2.5 minutes with Vulture bonus)
Resistances: EM 90.7 TH 91.3 KN 87 EX 83.4
Signature 205m
DPS: 593 OR 463 with 45km with T2, but speed reduced to 490 m/s
Range: 30.4
Speed: 633 m/s

Results:

If you use the DPS graph feature in EFT, it gives a much clearer picture. At optional ranges, the Legion does more DPS than the Tengu, by a significant amount, but drops off gradually once it closes in, at which point it needs to change to close range crystals (and really kick ass) The actual DPS is of course reduced against the Legion because of it's signature size, where as the Legion is able to get almost maximum DPS when at it's ideal ranges for each ammo type. If you increase DPS with the Tengu, it is with the T2 ammo which increases signature significantly, and makes the Tengu the same size as a battlecruiser putting it at a distinct advantage against battleships compared to the Legion which will always take less damage.

The Legion, while being slower, survives for longer with it's hardeners on, a third longer in fact in an overload tank. I would say, that the Legion just beats the Tengu, but the margin is very slim, the legion can do more DPS at the right ranges, but the Tengu does lower damage at all times, but the damage is the same over the range of the missile, so I would say that these ships are close to being perfectly balanced.

However, based on my very first post in the thread, the shield based Caldari fleet these Tengu's would need to be supported by for repairs etc, are far from 'Balanced' or even fair.

The Basilisks with their very large signature and low EHP combined with their slow speed and cap vulnerability will die easily to the Legions in all engagements, the Vulture soon after. Then it is simply a case of cleaning up. The Tengu's will have a VERY hard job doing maximum damage against the Guardians, with their very small signatures, the missiles are at an incredible disadvantage, while the large EHP of the Guardians gives them breathing room. Caldari must hope to get several - entirely random ECM jams on a guardian pairing to have any hope of winning, and Guardians can and do fit double ECCM modules if they know their enemy is using ECM regularly.

As for the Raven as to the best POS basher, I thought Dreads were best at this ;-). But even as a Battleship POS basher, I am yet to see Ravens as the default ship asked for in CTA's, if they were that awesome, that would be the case, so any advantage they have is minimal, and I would Argue the Typhoon with it's ability to change damage types, carry five large sentries etc, has a far stronger case against different POS resistances.

The problem is, that the Caldari ships I've mentioned are in a niche, they are supposed to be used in fleets. The Rokh can't fit an active tank without lots more power grid rigs, and the Raven is clearly designed for that role, with it's active tank bonus. The 5% resists are to help the Rokh survive in a fleet situation.

I fail to see how bringing these ships up to par, is in any way a bad thing, as it brings tactics and fun back into the game. Right now CCP are looking at maintaining subscriber numbers, I would argue, that for me, personally, I am growing bored of the Amarr /Minmitar fleets, and if this is the new status quo forever and ever, it will get dull... and is arguably dull already. While the new battlecruisers it is yet to be seen how effective they will become given their large prices on release, and reliance on speed tanks. So far the Tornado and Oracle are seen as the best ships, with the Talos last, with the Naga just ahead.

"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans 

Moonaura
The Dead Rabbit Society
#33 - 2011-11-20 15:01:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Moonaura
Here are the fits I promised. T2 rigs, which could be dropped down to T1, although my Legion uses T2 rigs and cost a billion ISK with the faction pieces, although I have better Heat Sinks in. Depending on what you think you might be fighting and how many, the AB and MWD can be swapped out, and sometimes I wouldn't use the ECCM, but it is quite weak on sensor strength and needs it.

I will finish the Rokh, Raven, and Amarr / Minmitar Battleship comparisons tomorrow. But I can tell you now it ain't pretty for Caldari, as they have no mid slots left and far less EHP. I'll also throw in the some discussion about cap drain to show how deadly this is compared to ECM, but if you want to see an example of cap drain making all the difference, just watch the new Rooks and Kings video.

An alliance that never fly shields in fleets, only for giggles in small stuff- they always roll armor, and there are very good reasons for their choice, but the main reasons being able to build high EHP on all ships they fly, along with very hard to kill guardians, a triage carrier with the best cap recharge and ability to run two capital repairs or switch in combat, to a very tough EHP fit (And unlike Caldari Carriers, able to fit a lot of Cap in the mid slots) and a command ship giving bonuses to all of them that is a very tough nut to crack.

I am not asking for key Caldari ships to be the same as Amarr - I am asking them to be balanced when fighting them - something that can be fixed through moderate increases in Base Shield HP, slightly better resists, 6%-7.5% instead of 5% and big increases to EHP for the Vulture and good look at Basilisks to bring them on par with Guardians, for which they will need at least the same EHP and very similar resists to get close, given their FAR larger signature, but the extra shield transfer could makes up for that, although I have already shown it's repair rate is the same as the guardians at present when repairing another basilisk...

[Legion, Fleet Legion]
True Sansha Armor EM Hardener
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
True Sansha Armor Thermic Hardener
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I

ECCM - Radar II
Warp Disruptor II
10MN Afterburner II
Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 100

Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M

Medium Anti-Kinetic Pump II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II

Legion Defensive - Augmented Plating
Legion Electronics - Tactical Targeting Network
Legion Engineering - Power Core Multiplier
Legion Offensive - Liquid Crystal Magnifiers
Legion Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst



[Tengu, Fleet Tengu T2]
Damage Control II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Gravimetric Backup Array II

Invulnerability Field II
10MN Afterburner II
Dread Guristas Photon Scattering Field
Large Shield Extender II
Dread Guristas Photon Scattering Field
Warp Disruptor II

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile

Medium Anti-Explosive Screen Reinforcer II
Medium Core Defence Field Extender II
Medium Core Defence Field Extender II

Tengu Defensive - Supplemental Screening
Tengu Engineering - Capacitor Regeneration Matrix
Tengu Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Tengu Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst
Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay

"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans 

Aglais
Ice-Storm
Two Maidens One Chalice
#34 - 2011-11-25 02:58:30 UTC
Thread supported, very interested in seeing more variation in fleet composition, especially if that includes Caldari.
David Clausewitz
David Clausewitz Corporation
#35 - 2011-11-25 07:52:56 UTC
You're complaining about Damnation having so much more tank when the caldari counterpart does over 50% more damage.

Also, while we're at it balancing ships, let's put the Legion on par with the Tengu, shall we?
Roffle Roffle
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#36 - 2011-11-25 08:45:17 UTC
More ******** buffer tanks are not what the game needs. Also I'm pretty sure you overlooked a few things.
Moonaura
The Dead Rabbit Society
#37 - 2011-11-25 16:23:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Moonaura
David Clausewitz wrote:
You're complaining about Damnation having so much more tank when the caldari counterpart does over 50% more damage.

Also, while we're at it balancing ships, let's put the Legion on par with the Tengu, shall we?


Thanks for the feedback. Shocked

The Damnation in my fit does 80 DPS, while the Vulture does 121 DPS. That is 41 increase, which is technically only about 25% increase. If you believe that 41 DPS is the difference between winning and losing, compared to a larger signature, more that 60% smaller EHP and the worst resist against Alpha Explosive damage, then...*sigh* honestly, is this worth a real response?

As for the Legion and Tengu, if you read my posts above, you will see, I have indeed compared the T3 Strategic Cruisers, and believe these to be pretty well balanced as things go, given the differences.

Where I think Amarr ships are also weak, I promise to point it out. A good example, is when I compare the Drake to say, the Prophecy - the Prophecy could actually be a very similar ship to the Drake - it has similar EHP, lower signature, but sadly, does far to little DPS, and I promise to point these sort of inbalances out to make EvE have more choice - because... erm... yeah Prophecy's are so popular at the moment.

"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans 

Moonaura
The Dead Rabbit Society
#38 - 2011-11-25 16:37:22 UTC
Roffle Roffle wrote:
More ******** buffer tanks are not what the game needs. Also I'm pretty sure you overlooked a few things.


Well, the game already has buffer tanks, and it is a critical part of fleet mechanics and game play, so, I cannot see them being removed or nerfed from the game. All that I am asking is that the core Caldari Fleet ships, have shields that are balanced in relation to armor.

I am not sure why more choice in fleet ship types and fittings for combat, would be a bad thing for EvE? EHP Buffer tanks will never go away, but at present we are really just locked into two races, for different reasons, but all really exploiting the EHP in their roles - Amarr to survive, Minmitar to get it down fast with Alpha.

And yes, I may well have overlooked a few things, I do not claim to be perfect, and EvE is a deep game, but I have more posts coming to highlight some of the massive differences between shield and armour, such as the actual costs of Invulnerability faction modules (500m isk), compared to say, Armour Faction Energised Adaptive modules that sell for 50m isk and don't require capacitor to work.

Overall, given the clear understanding of signature, speed, EHP and resistances, Caldari are at massive disadvantage, because I think we can agree they are not known for their massive DPS (Even if they do have a massive 41 more DPS than a damnation in my fits! Smile)

"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans 

Avila Cracko
#39 - 2011-11-25 16:45:04 UTC
agree with the OP

truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

Destructor1792
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#40 - 2011-11-25 16:50:08 UTC
To the Op - what about adding the numbers for the Claymore & Eos for a more balanced view?

Not fired a shot in anger since 2011.... Trigger finger is starting to get somewhat itchy.......