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[Rubicon] Sisters of EVE faction ships

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Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#1341 - 2013-10-08 13:45:51 UTC
Sir Mattsimus wrote:
I'm for tugging these ships in the direction of being good for nullsec hacking and analysis.
I had imagined probing the hostile expanse of nullsec with my SOE probes and SOE launcher bolted to an SOE Ship.
But if the specs remain as they are that will never happen.
And it seems such a terrible waste.

Don't worry, such a ship will have a wide variety of use outside of your niche.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1342 - 2013-10-08 13:47:18 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Sir Mattsimus wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:

So the can do a wide verity of sites and not just combat or data/relic sites.

CCP Rise wrote:

...these ships will be great for a lot of different things meaning people will be trying to tug them in a few different directions...


I'm for tugging these ships in the direction of being good for nullsec hacking and analysis.
I had imagined probing the hostile expanse of nullsec with my SOE probes and SOE launcher bolted to an SOE Ship.
But if the specs remain as they are that will never happen.
And it seems such a terrible waste.



+1 totally agree, ccp can allow explorers or can make it eve rubicon same as eve odyssey same as eve retribution same as .........
Good change is good. Such a shame some hate anything good if it's change.
These ships if properly done will open exploration into exploration in the fullest meaning of the word. Not exploration of the next block or next city real exploration.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
CCP Rise
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1343 - 2013-10-08 14:20:20 UTC
Hey wanted to check in again.

We've been talking about these ships quite a lot the last day or two and still aren't settled on making any changes. I think we're in a relatively good spot, which is great. We do have some minor concerns about the power level that comes with a resist bonus and a full drone bandwidth allocation. That said, with no projection or application bonuses and larger sig there's still no way the Stratios can compete with the Ishtar at a fleet level so it's just a matter of figuring out if it's too much at a smaller scale, which is debatable to say the least.

We are also talking about the virus strength issue and there's good arguments on both sides. I think any change here will wait until we decide about the rest of the ship and be made in relation to those changes (for instance if it lost any damage output it would seem very sensible to increase the virus strength).

For now, I want to let this sit a bit longer while we think things over and see how the sisi feedback plays out.

Thanks for the discussion!

@ccp_rise
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#1344 - 2013-10-08 14:24:58 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Hey wanted to check in again.

We've been talking about these ships quite a lot the last day or two and still aren't settled on making any changes. I think we're in a relatively good spot, which is great. We do have some minor concerns about the power level that comes with a resist bonus and a full drone bandwidth allocation. That said, with no projection or application bonuses and larger sig there's still no way the Stratios can compete with the Ishtar at a fleet level so it's just a matter of figuring out if it's too much at a smaller scale, which is debatable to say the least.

We are also talking about the virus strength issue and there's good arguments on both sides. I think any change here will wait until we decide about the rest of the ship and be made in relation to those changes (for instance if it lost any damage output it would seem very sensible to increase the virus strength).

For now, I want to let this sit a bit longer while we think things over and see how the sisi feedback plays out.

Thanks for the discussion!


Should the ability to use a covops cloak mean that it should not be as powerful as the other pirate cruisers in a straight out fight.

Because honestly to me it seems to be on par/stronger than most of them.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1345 - 2013-10-08 14:25:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Omnathious Deninard
CCP Rise wrote:
Hey wanted to check in again.

We've been talking about these ships quite a lot the last day or two and still aren't settled on making any changes. I think we're in a relatively good spot, which is great. We do have some minor concerns about the power level that comes with a resist bonus and a full drone bandwidth allocation. That said, with no projection or application bonuses and larger sig there's still no way the Stratios can compete with the Ishtar at a fleet level so it's just a matter of figuring out if it's too much at a smaller scale, which is debatable to say the least.

We are also talking about the virus strength issue and there's good arguments on both sides. I think any change here will wait until we decide about the rest of the ship and be made in relation to those changes (for instance if it lost any damage output it would seem very sensible to increase the virus strength).

For now, I want to let this sit a bit longer while we think things over and see how the sisi feedback plays out.

Thanks for the discussion!

If at all possible, it would be nice if we could get this iteration on Sisi for some field testing before you decide to make some changes.

Edit: Yeah.... I missed that part.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1346 - 2013-10-08 14:26:37 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Hey wanted to check in again.

We've been talking about these ships quite a lot the last day or two and still aren't settled on making any changes. I think we're in a relatively good spot, which is great. We do have some minor concerns about the power level that comes with a resist bonus and a full drone bandwidth allocation. That said, with no projection or application bonuses and larger sig there's still no way the Stratios can compete with the Ishtar at a fleet level so it's just a matter of figuring out if it's too much at a smaller scale, which is debatable to say the least.

We are also talking about the virus strength issue and there's good arguments on both sides. I think any change here will wait until we decide about the rest of the ship and be made in relation to those changes (for instance if it lost any damage output it would seem very sensible to increase the virus strength).

For now, I want to let this sit a bit longer while we think things over and see how the sisi feedback plays out.

Thanks for the discussion!


Thank you for advising us, and your careful consideration we look forward to your response.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#1347 - 2013-10-08 14:33:56 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Hey wanted to check in again.

We've been talking about these ships quite a lot the last day or two and still aren't settled on making any changes. I think we're in a relatively good spot, which is great. We do have some minor concerns about the power level that comes with a resist bonus and a full drone bandwidth allocation. That said, with no projection or application bonuses and larger sig there's still no way the Stratios can compete with the Ishtar at a fleet level so it's just a matter of figuring out if it's too much at a smaller scale, which is debatable to say the least.

We are also talking about the virus strength issue and there's good arguments on both sides. I think any change here will wait until we decide about the rest of the ship and be made in relation to those changes (for instance if it lost any damage output it would seem very sensible to increase the virus strength).

For now, I want to let this sit a bit longer while we think things over and see how the sisi feedback plays out.

Thanks for the discussion!


I'm sure you'll take the right decision in the end, whatever the right decision is.

That being said... from what I had the opportunity to read, paper DPS of this ship exceeds not only other cov ops but even some other pirate ships. So, again, be careful about power creep !

Signature Tanking Best Tanking

[Ex-F] CEO - Eve-guides.fr

Ultimate Citadel Guide - 2016 EVE Career Chart
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1348 - 2013-10-08 14:36:07 UTC
Altrue wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Hey wanted to check in again.

We've been talking about these ships quite a lot the last day or two and still aren't settled on making any changes. I think we're in a relatively good spot, which is great. We do have some minor concerns about the power level that comes with a resist bonus and a full drone bandwidth allocation. That said, with no projection or application bonuses and larger sig there's still no way the Stratios can compete with the Ishtar at a fleet level so it's just a matter of figuring out if it's too much at a smaller scale, which is debatable to say the least.

We are also talking about the virus strength issue and there's good arguments on both sides. I think any change here will wait until we decide about the rest of the ship and be made in relation to those changes (for instance if it lost any damage output it would seem very sensible to increase the virus strength).

For now, I want to let this sit a bit longer while we think things over and see how the sisi feedback plays out.

Thanks for the discussion!


I'm sure you'll take the right decision in the end, whatever the right decision is.

That being said... from what I had the opportunity to read, paper DPS of this ship exceeds not only other cov ops but even some other pirate ships. So, again, be careful about power creep !

But that is all it is, paper DPS without some kind of application bonus it can be rather hard to apply it.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1349 - 2013-10-08 14:36:26 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Sir Mattsimus wrote:
I'm for tugging these ships in the direction of being good for nullsec hacking and analysis.
I had imagined probing the hostile expanse of nullsec with my SOE probes and SOE launcher bolted to an SOE Ship.
But if the specs remain as they are that will never happen.
And it seems such a terrible waste.

Don't worry, such a ship will have a wide variety of use outside of your niche.


Interesting take on the stated intention to discuss. I think it translates as me right you stupid?or you may have some finer subtle argument hidden in your reply?

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#1350 - 2013-10-08 14:36:28 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Hey wanted to check in again.

We've been talking about these ships quite a lot the last day or two and still aren't settled on making any changes. I think we're in a relatively good spot, which is great. We do have some minor concerns about the power level that comes with a resist bonus and a full drone bandwidth allocation. That said, with no projection or application bonuses and larger sig there's still no way the Stratios can compete with the Ishtar at a fleet level so it's just a matter of figuring out if it's too much at a smaller scale, which is debatable to say the least.


It can be bridged into cyno jammed systems, ishtars cannot
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#1351 - 2013-10-08 14:41:13 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Hey wanted to check in again.

We've been talking about these ships quite a lot the last day or two and still aren't settled on making any changes. I think we're in a relatively good spot, which is great. We do have some minor concerns about the power level that comes with a resist bonus and a full drone bandwidth allocation. That said, with no projection or application bonuses and larger sig there's still no way the Stratios can compete with the Ishtar at a fleet level so it's just a matter of figuring out if it's too much at a smaller scale, which is debatable to say the least.

We are also talking about the virus strength issue and there's good arguments on both sides. I think any change here will wait until we decide about the rest of the ship and be made in relation to those changes (for instance if it lost any damage output it would seem very sensible to increase the virus strength).

For now, I want to let this sit a bit longer while we think things over and see how the sisi feedback plays out.

Thanks for the discussion!


I don't see anything in your post about removing the covops cloaks.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1352 - 2013-10-08 14:50:43 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
(for instance if it lost any damage output it would seem very sensible to increase the virus strength).

This makes no sense, CCP Rise. Why should reducing its DPS warrant stomping on other ships' role?

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Miasmos
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1353 - 2013-10-08 15:00:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Miasmos
How this ship is used:

1) Warp gang cloaked to 100-200km sniper range. 200km sniping utilizes curators buffed with glitched, non stacking penalized drone scope rigs along with the omnidirs and drone links.
2) Tackler or target caller engages / decloaks. Use a ship that won't die to anything except doomsday for this role (ultra fast long range interceptor, keres with long point and damps).
3) Decloak gang, assign drones, 3-4 seconds from decloaking sentry blap happens. The gang is situated outside of any danger perimeter.
4) Warp gang away at first sign of distant possibility of getting locked. You can have warpstabs to nullify any tackle attempt since you don't need to target from the Stratios.

Target selection for this gang: anything that can't reach the sniper range. Can harass with no punity in enemy capital systems. I think the concept is a bit too easymode for the guerrilla tactics it enables. BURN EDEN and similiar outfits who ran guerrilla tactics in hostile environment were at least out of covert cloak for the power level the Stratios has. I don't necessarily see it as a big deal but I think it's the only ship capable of fighting risk free to this extent. It should be considered carefully.


THE FIX TO DRONE ASSIST FROM CLOAK AND IN GENERAL

The fix would be for example to make drone assign require lock on the ship you assign drones to. This would have beneficial effects on the ever broken drone assign mechanic as well: no free cloak on drone ships, no free warpstabs on drone ships, disrupting droneboat lock by ewar or killing drone bunnies fast enables shutting down a portion of dronefleet dps.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1354 - 2013-10-08 15:06:15 UTC
Miasmos wrote:

The fix would be for example to make drone assign require lock on the ship you assign drones to. This would have beneficial effects on the ever broken drone assign mechanic as well: no free cloak on drone ships, no free warpstabs on drone ships, disrupting droneboat lock by ewar or killing drone bunnies fast enables shutting down a portion of dronefleet dps.

I would just rather drone assist be removed.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1355 - 2013-10-08 15:06:51 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Hey wanted to check in again.

We've been talking about these ships quite a lot the last day or two and still aren't settled on making any changes. I think we're in a relatively good spot, which is great. We do have some minor concerns about the power level that comes with a resist bonus and a full drone bandwidth allocation. That said, with no projection or application bonuses and larger sig there's still no way the Stratios can compete with the Ishtar at a fleet level so it's just a matter of figuring out if it's too much at a smaller scale, which is debatable to say the least.


It can be bridged into cyno jammed systems, ishtars cannot



This is the part I was liking, specially since drone mechanics made it so you don't need as owner to give any further orders than assist the FC or whatever guy you were previously told to and watch listed.
In this particular case fleets of these ships can be way to overpowered which is different from their first intended purpose and way better at this specific combat situation than specialized combat ships.
I've already listed in my little book some ways to profit from this mechanic to exploit the crap out of it, or should I say, take advantage because it's more Eve'ish?

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#1356 - 2013-10-08 15:09:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
Warning: Wall of text. No TL;DR. Read it or don't.

I suppose it's reasonable to leave a post here and address a few things that I've been reading. I'm not going to use quotes and hopefully you're not going to get all confused as to what I'm talking about. Let's begin, shall we?

"This ship is meant for lowsec": If I recall correctly, the general rule of thumb is that 1-3/10s are found basically in highsec, 4-6/10s are basically in lowsec and 7-10/10s are reserved exclusively for nullsec. There is a bit of deviation from this, as 1-3s can be found occasionally in lowsec and are peppered here and there in nullsec and the same for 4-6 in lowsec. However, deviations aside, this is the standard reference to go by. Also, I can say from personal experience that the Data/Relic sites in lowsec are.. ..well.. they're just not very hard. At all. Given these bits of data, it's not entirely unreasonable to arrive at the conclusion that this ship is meant primarily to cruise around lowsec and take the occasional trip into null rather than to operate in deep null forever and ever.

Virus strength: Lowsec Data/Relic sites are.. didn't I just say this? They're not that difficult and they really do not require perfect skills at all. +5 Virus strength is plenty for lowsec sites, it's not even something worth trying to question. We have people coming forward now saying that with their perfect skills and T2 gear they can also do nullsec sites with a +5 bonus. I've done some nullsec sites myself with less-than-perfect skills and only T1 equipment while flying a T1 Probe. The hardest sites were admittedly out of my reach, but not by much. I'll stand in the "+5 strength is sufficient" camp and tell the rest of you to stop being bad and/or sloppy in your attempts to hack. Stop wildly clicking on nodes, get T2 gear, finish your skills to V. Whatever it takes.

Skill requirements: The SoE ships are Pirate Ships. Pirate Ships. They are not intended for newbies or those who are under-trained. If you want to fly around with skills trained to III, you've got T1 or Navy. If you think you can pass muster with your skills at IV, there's always T2, whose +10 strength will coddle you like a newborn and wrap your delicate space-dreams in soft fluffy wool.

Pirate Ships take Vs. They're expensive. They're borderline broken, but not quite. They're horribly annoying to acquire compared to other, lesser ships. They are incredibly more demanding in terms of trained skills than T2 or even Swiss-Army T3. This is how it should be. Let me repeat the main theme again in case anyone's forgotten:

PIRATE SHIPS TAKE Vs.


"Certainly," you will say, "this cannot be true, for you can pilot a Pirate Ship with far less than Vs trained. Unfortunately, you would indeed be correct. You may pilot a Pirate Ship at less than V, but you will not rightly be able to claim you are flying it any more than a 2-week-old with a Megathron can claim to be flying their ship. Pirate Ships take Vs.

If you're too lazy to bother training your skills to V, then you aren't good enough for a pirate ship.

If you feel you shouldn't have to train your skills to V, you do not deserve to unlock its full potential.

Go back to your covops and leave these gems for those of us who are willing to put in the dedication and training to fly them with the skills to actually use them. This is the way they deserve to be flown.

Saying that you want +10 strength, claiming they cannot do their job without it and then demanding that you shouldn't have to have Vs in order to capture the richest treasures of deep null? I simply do not know what to say to you.

This next bit may veer a bit off-topic, but it's something that I simply cannot keep quiet about after seeing it jarringly pushed forward again and again and again.

Forum police: I don't see anyone here with a "Forum Police" tag over their portrait. I see "DEV" and I believe I saw a "CSM" or two but I didn't see "FORUM POLICE". In fact, I have never seen a tag that says "FORUM POLICE". Maybe "GM" or "ISD" count but I haven't seen any of those in this thread at all. With this in mind, certain elements among us may possibly wish to get over themselves, get over their unhealthy obsession with the forum rules and get on with productive discussion instead of reminding everyone in virtually every post that someone has taken to a method you disagree with regarding a topic you feel unusually strongly about. Do you even have proof to back up your allegations? Please refrain from further slander, which I do believe is also against forum rules.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1357 - 2013-10-08 15:18:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
CCP Rise wrote:


For now, I want to let this sit a bit longer while we think things over and see how the sisi feedback plays out.

Thanks for the discussion!



That is a bit worrisome from a group that can't run a relic site without T2 analyzers and +10 virus.

Altrue wrote:


That being said... from what I had the opportunity to read, paper DPS of this ship exceeds not only other cov ops but even some other pirate ships. So, again, be careful about power creep !


The paper DPS numbers quoted are no going to make it to point range. Unbonused scortch only makes it 20km or so and with out OMNI's (if you want a tank) gardes only have a 24km optimal, wardens and boncers give a fair amount of damage for the range they yield, and DLAs take high slots that you need for cloaks. You could attempt to fit beams, but you are going to have fitting issues, in addition to the tracking and applied DPS fit.

Lets try to be real here.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#1358 - 2013-10-08 15:18:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
(for instance if it lost any damage output it would seem very sensible to increase the virus strength).

This makes no sense, CCP Rise. Why should reducing its DPS warrant stomping on other ships' role?


It's pretty simple and I'm surprised you don't see it. Ignoring all the PvP nonsense that clouds the issue, this ship was designed with two core roles: Combat Sites and Data/Relic Sites. It has DPS to perform the one and Virus Strength to perform the other.

The sense of Rise's statement is this: If the DPS is lowered, that hampers its ability to perform one of its roles. Therefore, the only suitable way to balance this out and compensate for that loss is to increase its ability to perform the other role. It's balancing that is done irrespective of other, cheaper, significantly more easily obtained ships.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1359 - 2013-10-08 15:21:21 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
(for instance if it lost any damage output it would seem very sensible to increase the virus strength).

This makes no sense, CCP Rise. Why should reducing its DPS warrant stomping on other ships' role?


It's pretty simple and I'm surprised you don't see it. Ignoring all the PvP nonsense that clouds the issue, this ship was designed with two core roles: Combat Sites and Data/Relic Sites. It has DPS to perform the one and Virus Strength to perform the other.

The sense of Rise's statement is this: If the DPS is lowered, that hampers its ability to perform one of its roles. Therefore, the only suitable way to balance this out and compensate for that loss is to increase its ability to perform the other role. It's balancing that is done irrespective of other, cheaper, significantly more easily obtained ships.

That is true depending on how much the DPS is reduced. IMO I would need to be a pretty hard DPS nerf to make it no longer perform its combat role well.
If it lost the 10% drone damage it would warrant it.
If it lost 25mbps bandwidth, it is arguable weather or not it would be a fair compensation.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#1360 - 2013-10-08 15:22:05 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Altrue wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Hey wanted to check in again.

We've been talking about these ships quite a lot the last day or two and still aren't settled on making any changes. I think we're in a relatively good spot, which is great. We do have some minor concerns about the power level that comes with a resist bonus and a full drone bandwidth allocation. That said, with no projection or application bonuses and larger sig there's still no way the Stratios can compete with the Ishtar at a fleet level so it's just a matter of figuring out if it's too much at a smaller scale, which is debatable to say the least.

We are also talking about the virus strength issue and there's good arguments on both sides. I think any change here will wait until we decide about the rest of the ship and be made in relation to those changes (for instance if it lost any damage output it would seem very sensible to increase the virus strength).

For now, I want to let this sit a bit longer while we think things over and see how the sisi feedback plays out.

Thanks for the discussion!


I'm sure you'll take the right decision in the end, whatever the right decision is.

That being said... from what I had the opportunity to read, paper DPS of this ship exceeds not only other cov ops but even some other pirate ships. So, again, be careful about power creep !

But that is all it is, paper DPS without some kind of application bonus it can be rather hard to apply it.


It has five midslots, thats all the application bonus it needs.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish