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[Rubicon] Sisters of EVE faction ships

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Omnathious Deninard
Ministry of Silly Walks.
#1361 - 2013-10-08 15:25:39 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Altrue wrote:

That being said... from what I had the opportunity to read, paper DPS of this ship exceeds not only other cov ops but even some other pirate ships. So, again, be careful about power creep !

But that is all it is, paper DPS without some kind of application bonus it can be rather hard to apply it.


It has five midslots, thats all the application bonus it needs.

That could be said even if it only had 3 mid slots, 2x web and a scram + covert ops cloaking device will stop any sub-cap from moving.
Even 1 prop mod, 1 web and a scram can cause all but the fastest frigates to be caught.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Onictus
Capital Fusion.
Pandemic Horde
#1362 - 2013-10-08 15:26:51 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Altrue wrote:

That being said... from what I had the opportunity to read, paper DPS of this ship exceeds not only other cov ops but even some other pirate ships. So, again, be careful about power creep !

But that is all it is, paper DPS without some kind of application bonus it can be rather hard to apply it.


It has five midslots, thats all the application bonus it needs.

That could be said even if it only had 3 mid slots, 2x web and a scram + covert ops cloaking device will stop any sub-cap from moving.
Even 1 prop mod, 1 web and a scram can cause all but the fastest frigates to be caught.



With a 5 second lock delay....more commonly 6?
Omnathious Deninard
Ministry of Silly Walks.
#1363 - 2013-10-08 15:28:28 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Altrue wrote:

That being said... from what I had the opportunity to read, paper DPS of this ship exceeds not only other cov ops but even some other pirate ships. So, again, be careful about power creep !

But that is all it is, paper DPS without some kind of application bonus it can be rather hard to apply it.


It has five midslots, thats all the application bonus it needs.

That could be said even if it only had 3 mid slots, 2x web and a scram + covert ops cloaking device will stop any sub-cap from moving.
Even 1 prop mod, 1 web and a scram can cause all but the fastest frigates to be caught.



With a 5 second lock delay....more commonly 6?

According to some.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1364 - 2013-10-08 15:30:16 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Warning: Wall of text. No TL;DR. Read it or don't.

I suppose it's reasonable to leave a post here and address a few things that I've been reading. I'm not going to use quotes and hopefully you're not going to get all confused as to what I'm talking about. Let's begin, shall we?

"This ship is meant for lowsec": If I recall correctly, the general rule of thumb is that 1-3/10s are found basically in highsec, 4-6/10s are basically in lowsec and 7-10/10s are reserved exclusively for nullsec. There is a bit of deviation from this, as 1-3s can be found occasionally in lowsec and are peppered here and there in nullsec and the same for 4-6 in lowsec. However, deviations aside, this is the standard reference to go by. Also, I can say from personal experience that the Data/Relic sites in lowsec are.. ..well.. they're just not very hard. At all. Given these bits of data, it's not entirely unreasonable to arrive at the conclusion that this ship is meant primarily to cruise around lowsec and take the occasional trip into null rather than to operate in deep null forever and ever.

Virus strength: Lowsec Data/Relic sites are.. didn't I just say this? They're not that difficult and they really do not require perfect skills at all. +5 Virus strength is plenty for lowsec sites, it's not even something worth trying to question. We have people coming forward now saying that with their perfect skills and T2 gear they can also do nullsec sites with a +5 bonus. I've done some nullsec sites myself with less-than-perfect skills and only T1 equipment while flying a T1 Probe. The hardest sites were admittedly out of my reach, but not by much. I'll stand in the "+5 strength is sufficient" camp and tell the rest of you to stop being bad and/or sloppy in your attempts to hack. Stop wildly clicking on nodes, get T2 gear, finish your skills to V. Whatever it takes.

Skill requirements: The SoE ships are Pirate Ships. Pirate Ships. They are not intended for newbies or those who are under-trained. If you want to fly around with skills trained to III, you've got T1 or Navy. If you think you can pass muster with your skills at IV, there's always T2, whose +10 strength will coddle you like a newborn and wrap your delicate space-dreams in soft fluffy wool.

Pirate Ships take Vs. They're expensive. They're borderline broken, but not quite. They're horribly annoying to acquire compared to other, lesser ships. They are incredibly more demanding in terms of trained skills than T2 or even Swiss-Army T3. This is how it should be. Let me repeat the main theme again in case anyone's forgotten:

PIRATE SHIPS TAKE Vs.


"Certainly," you will say, "this cannot be true, for you can pilot a Pirate Ship with far less than Vs trained. Unfortunately, you would indeed be correct. You may pilot a Pirate Ship at less than V, but you will not rightly be able to claim you are flying it any more than a 2-week-old with a Megathron can claim to be flying their ship. Pirate Ships take Vs.

If you're too lazy to bother training your skills to V, then you aren't good enough for a pirate ship.

If you feel you shouldn't have to train your skills to V, you do not deserve to unlock its full potential.

Go back to your covops and leave these gems for those of us who are willing to put in the dedication and training to fly them with the skills to actually use them. This is the way they deserve to be flown.

Saying that you want +10 strength, claiming they cannot do their job without it and then demanding that you shouldn't have to have Vs in order to capture the richest treasures of deep null? I simply do not know what to say to you.

This next bit may veer a bit off-topic, but it's something that I simply cannot keep quiet about after seeing it jarringly pushed forward again and again and again.

Forum police: I don't see anyone here with a "Forum Police" tag over their portrait. I see "DEV" and I believe I saw a "CSM" or two but I didn't see "FORUM POLICE". In fact, I have never seen a tag that says "FORUM POLICE". Maybe "GM" or "ISD" count but I haven't seen any of those in this thread at all. With this in mind, certain elements among us may possibly wish to get over themselves, get over their unhealthy obsession with the forum rules and get on with productive discussion instead of reminding everyone in virtually every post that someone has taken to a method you disagree with regarding a topic you feel unusually strongly about. Do you even have proof to back up your tinfoil? Please refrain from further slander, which I do believe is also against forum rules.


Interesting position,seem to have heard something similar before. I would not wish to invalidate your opinion.you are totally welcome to your views.
That aside,not so interested in whether the forum rules are or are not being broken, more concerned with someone pretending to be giving an independent view when they are misleading others deliberately.
Not hard to tell when someone is using multiple identities when they reply on the wrong identity,Careless.
Anyway that is not important.
What is important is the deliberate attempt to drown out other opinions, that is not right.
I respect all other opinions, whether I agree with them or not.
I am sure that Ccp will eventually identify all the offending accounts, apart from the original 2 but I am not permitted under forum rules to discuss the moderators behaviour.

What i do say is I trust that Ccp will deal with all matters from forum moderation to ship design fairly, professionally, and in a well thought out manner,
I note your comments before digressing into an ad hominem attack, but unfortuneately find them relying on assumptions that are poorly thought out.
In summation. I respectfully disagree.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Softcutter
Gentle Giants
#1365 - 2013-10-08 15:41:10 UTC
nothing was mentioned about the skill requierments

I will be very happy to be aware that:

1. skill requierments will be like any other covops ship in addition to the faction cruisers/frigates requierments.

2. covops skill will be affecting the probe scan strength like in normal covops from 10%-50%. it will make it a well balanced and worthwhile and not a total waste for other covops pilots.

and it is a very wierd fact that it is amarr affected while the sisters are usually pro gallente and minmatar or i might be mistaken

those ships can easily be classified a t2 or maybe keep those like they are and make another highend variant of them as the 1st t2 faction collaboration, that will be a blast =)

id be very happy to see a t2 icon in the upper left corner being green or with a faction icon addition!

thats it for now after i had a creativity attack!

you should hire me! I love this freaking game so much but i want it to demand more skills to get this kind of great ships.
Omnathious Deninard
Ministry of Silly Walks.
#1366 - 2013-10-08 15:42:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Omnathious Deninard
Softcutter wrote:
nothing was mentioned about the skill requierments

I will be very happy to be aware that:

1. skill requierments will be like any other covops ship in addition to the faction cruisers/frigates requierments.

2. covops skill will be affecting the probe scan strength like in normal covops from 10%-50%. it will make it a well balanced and worthwhile and not a total waste for other covops pilots.

and it is a very wierd fact that it is amarr affected while the sisters are usually pro gallente and minmatar or i might be mistaken

those ships can easily be classified a t2 or maybe keep those like they are and make another highend variant of them as the 1st t2 faction collaboration, that will be a blast =)

id be very happy to see a t2 icon in the upper left corner being green or with a faction icon addition!

thats it for now after i had a creativity attack!

you should hire me! I love this freaking game so much but i want it to demand more skills to get this kind of great ships.

Skill Requirements are Gallente Frigate and Amarr Frigate for the Frigate and Gallente Cruiser and Amarr Cruiser for the Cruiser.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1367 - 2013-10-08 15:58:59 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Softcutter wrote:
nothing was mentioned about the skill requierments

I will be very happy to be aware that:

1. skill requierments will be like any other covops ship in addition to the faction cruisers/frigates requierments.

2. covops skill will be affecting the probe scan strength like in normal covops from 10%-50%. it will make it a well balanced and worthwhile and not a total waste for other covops pilots.

and it is a very wierd fact that it is amarr affected while the sisters are usually pro gallente and minmatar or i might be mistaken

those ships can easily be classified a t2 or maybe keep those like they are and make another highend variant of them as the 1st t2 faction collaboration, that will be a blast =)

id be very happy to see a t2 icon in the upper left corner being green or with a faction icon addition!

thats it for now after i had a creativity attack!

you should hire me! I love this freaking game so much but i want it to demand more skills to get this kind of great ships.

Nice lateral thinking, there are also of course the requirements to fit the covert ops cloak.
I also think that to get above 37.5 covert ops skills should apply your idea is good.
And if covert ops skill is trained it makes sense to be able to scan as a covert ops and also access relic and data sites in the same way,
Very good compromise.

In summation, covert ops not required to operate the craft, cloaking IV skill required to fit and operate the covert ops cloak (as present)
Covert ops skill required to access enhanced scanning and improved data and relic site virus bonus to +10 no bonus over standard explorer frigate without.This ensures that advanced abilities do not bypass skill training and prevent the ships being low entry covert ops.thereby preserving the covert ops ships which would be still be available. For those that want them.
These new ships can then function as explorers with the training in covert ops, without stepping on too many peoples toes? At the very least if people did not want to use all their advantages they could be used as a fifth (expensive) faction covert ops.or a combat vessel depending on their skills training path.

Ideal compromise, no rational reason why this would not be acceptable.

I substitute this proposal for my original viewpoint and recommend this improved suggestion wholeheartedly, I am pleased to be able to embrace a better idea from others,thank you for your insight.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Thaddeus Eggeras
Urkrathos Corp
LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM
#1368 - 2013-10-08 16:06:05 UTC
Like said before

The frigate will be a great PvP ship (if it gets another high slot) 20% to drone HP, take means 5 drones going at another frigate, that frigate will have one hell of a time killing the drones before they get him, and add the 2 lasers and I think the SOE friagte will be a mean ship. Remember these are to explore and while doing so to be able to defend themsselfs. we all will find ways of turning them into full pvp ships but, that isn't what their role is suppose to be.

SOE frigate just needs either one med or one low removed and another high slots added.

SOE cruiser just needs 2 or 3 gun slots with 100% to laser damage and all slots high, med and low same amount.

SOE battleship need one haha

And soon to come Cald/Min Thukker faction ships! (I'm a dreamer haha)
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1369 - 2013-10-08 16:09:56 UTC
Thaddeus Eggeras wrote:
Like said before

The frigate will be a great PvP ship (if it gets another high slot) 20% to drone HP, take means 5 drones going at another frigate, that frigate will have one hell of a time killing the drones before they get him, and add the 2 lasers and I think the SOE friagte will be a mean ship. Remember these are to explore and while doing so to be able to defend themsselfs. we all will find ways of turning them into full pvp ships but, that isn't what their role is suppose to be.

SOE frigate just needs either one med or one low removed and another high slots added.

SOE cruiser just needs 2 or 3 gun slots with 100% to laser damage and all slots high, med and low same amount.

SOE battleship need one haha

And soon to come Cald/Min Thukker faction ships! (I'm a dreamer haha)

Please note common explorer fitting, 4 mids.
Relic analyser, prop mod,data analyser,cargo scanner.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Zaitsev Sabezan
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1370 - 2013-10-08 16:50:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Zaitsev Sabezan
I'll leave the dps argument to the EFT warriors, but i do feel pretty strongly that the virus strength should be kept at 5. The current cov-ops ships would be completely replaced by these if they are given +10 virus strength.

Why would i fly a buzzard when i have a larger cargo bay, substantial combat ability and equal hacking abilities in the Astero? Yes the buzzard has a slightly stronger scan strength, but that is negligible at best, and negated if using a sisters launcher/probes.

I want to keep seeing buzzards and helioses flying around in space. As amazing as the new models are, i don't want to sacrifice an entire class of ships in an attempt to make the SOE ones desirable. They already are that and more.
Thaddeus Eggeras
Urkrathos Corp
LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM
#1371 - 2013-10-08 16:51:45 UTC
For exploring you don't need a cargo scanner, just the other two. So 3 high, 3 med and 4 low is more then good enough
Deviant X
Deviant Inc
#1372 - 2013-10-08 16:54:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Deviant X
Not to get too far off this heated debate of Virus strength and low vs. null sec utility ....


... but the dev blog stated 'full line of SoE ships' or something like that. Let's discuss an exploration BS please ... pretty please?!? Let's assume the Frigate is high-sec. Cruiser is low-sec. Then a BS could be null-sec?

Role Bonus: 50% bonus Energy Turret optimal range or tracking speed
Role Bonus: 40% increase Scan Prob Strength
Role Bonus: +10 Virus strength for Relic and Data Analyzers

Can fit Cover Ops Cloaking devices

Amarr BS Bonus:
4% bonus to Armor Resists

Gallente BS Bonus:
15% bonus to Sentry and Heavy Drone hitpoints and damage

Slot layout: 6H, 6M, 7L; 4 turrets, 0 launchers
Rigs: 3 with 400 calibration.
Fittings: 13500 PWG, 600 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 6800 / 9500 / 8200
Capacitor (amount) : 6400
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 110 / .13 / 105200000 / 9.09s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 700
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 68km / 110 / 7
Sensor strength: 30
Signature radius: 450
Cargo Capacity: 800


Solves the virus strength issue. Pirate
Helps to provide a 'full fleet of SoE ships'. Big smile

Emoticons were added to show how serious I am! Roll ... no seriously, we would like to see a BS.

Although, I'm not going to lie ... I'd love to see them also add a Battle Cruiser to the mix as well. But I am a fan of ships smaller than BS's.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1373 - 2013-10-08 16:55:20 UTC
Thaddeus Eggeras wrote:
For exploring you don't need a cargo scanner, just the other two. So 3 high, 3 med and 4 low is more then good enough



The cargo scanner is used to identify the can contents, to enable one to increase your knowledge to deal with the loot spew, otherwise it is just chance.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Electra Magnetic
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1374 - 2013-10-08 17:00:03 UTC
YES YES YES AND YES! CoolBig smile
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1375 - 2013-10-08 17:01:27 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Zaitsev Sabezan wrote:
I'll leave the dps argument to the EFT warriors, but i do feel pretty strongly that the virus strength should be kept at 5. The current cov-ops ships would be completely replaced by these if they are given +10 virus strength.

Why would i fly a buzzard when i have a larger cargo bay, substantial combat ability and equal hacking abilities in the Astero? Yes the buzzard has a slightly stronger scan strength, but that is negligible at best, and negated if using a sisters launcher/probes.

I want to keep seeing buzzards and helioses flying around in space. As amazing as the new models are, i don't want to sacrifice an entire class of ships in an attempt to make the SOE ones desirable. They already are that and more.


I have absolutely no desire to see these excellent ships disappear.I wish to see them all have the possibility of an effective role.

It is not unusual to see ships that fulfil more than one function,and functions fulfilled by more than 1 ship, there of course is the argument that the covert ops will be much lower cost,

It has recently been suggested and i wholeheartedly agree with the suggestion, that the covert ops skill be a requirement to access these additional functions. This would remove the issue where they would become covert ops for those who lack the skill.I accept that is a genuine concern.

I embrace this change as This would preserve the covert ops ship totally. Only if you wish to spend far more and train in 2 races frigate or cruiser skills you would have the choice of an alternative.I truly hope that the other point of view can also accept this extremely effective compromise, as it should completely resolve the concerns of both sides.

Choice is good if you are willing to train and spend the isk.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Sylver Maken
Fugutive Task Force
#1376 - 2013-10-08 17:20:58 UTC
While the energy weapons bonuses make sense due to the SOE technological focus, I don't really get the armor resist vice shield resist bonuses. Seems to fit better that they would have passive shield resists instead, though maybe they are just trying to give the amarr line of weapons and tank training a little love since it is pretty weak right now.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#1377 - 2013-10-08 17:23:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
Zaitsev Sabezan wrote:
I'll leave the dps argument to the EFT warriors, but i do feel pretty strongly that the virus strength should be kept at 5. The current cov-ops ships would be completely replaced by these if they are given +10 virus strength.

Why would i fly a buzzard when i have a larger cargo bay, substantial combat ability and equal hacking abilities in the Astero? Yes the buzzard has a slightly stronger scan strength, but that is negligible at best, and negated if using a sisters launcher/probes.

I want to keep seeing buzzards and helioses flying around in space. As amazing as the new models are, i don't want to sacrifice an entire class of ships in an attempt to make the SOE ones desirable. They already are that and more.


Spectacular. Absolutely spectacular. This post needs more likes.


Sylver Maken wrote:
While the energy weapons bonuses make sense due to the SOE technological focus, I don't really get the armor resist vice shield resist bonuses. Seems to fit better that they would have passive shield resists instead, though maybe they are just trying to give the amarr line of weapons and tank training a little love since it is pretty weak right now.


As the Gallente-Amarr hybrid ship, the main theme is armor and drones. The energy weapon bonus is meant to encourage laser use by partially nullifying their biggest drawback without making lasers feel compulsory as opposed to other weapons.
Onictus
Capital Fusion.
Pandemic Horde
#1378 - 2013-10-08 17:42:15 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Zaitsev Sabezan wrote:
I'll leave the dps argument to the EFT warriors, but i do feel pretty strongly that the virus strength should be kept at 5. The current cov-ops ships would be completely replaced by these if they are given +10 virus strength.

Why would i fly a buzzard when i have a larger cargo bay, substantial combat ability and equal hacking abilities in the Astero? Yes the buzzard has a slightly stronger scan strength, but that is negligible at best, and negated if using a sisters launcher/probes.

I want to keep seeing buzzards and helioses flying around in space. As amazing as the new models are, i don't want to sacrifice an entire class of ships in an attempt to make the SOE ones desirable. They already are that and more.


Spectacular. Absolutely spectacular. This post needs more likes.


Sylver Maken wrote:
While the energy weapons bonuses make sense due to the SOE technological focus, I don't really get the armor resist vice shield resist bonuses. Seems to fit better that they would have passive shield resists instead, though maybe they are just trying to give the amarr line of weapons and tank training a little love since it is pretty weak right now.


As the Gallente-Amarr hybrid ship, the main theme is armor and drones. The energy weapon bonus is meant to encourage laser use by partially nullifying their biggest drawback without making lasers feel compulsory as opposed to other weapons.



Finally someone makes sense.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1379 - 2013-10-08 17:53:26 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Softcutter wrote:
nothing was mentioned about the skill requierments

I will be very happy to be aware that:

1. skill requierments will be like any other covops ship in addition to the faction cruisers/frigates requierments.

2. covops skill will be affecting the probe scan strength like in normal covops from 10%-50%. it will make it a well balanced and worthwhile and not a total waste for other covops pilots.

and it is a very wierd fact that it is amarr affected while the sisters are usually pro gallente and minmatar or i might be mistaken

those ships can easily be classified a t2 or maybe keep those like they are and make another highend variant of them as the 1st t2 faction collaboration, that will be a blast =)

id be very happy to see a t2 icon in the upper left corner being green or with a faction icon addition!

thats it for now after i had a creativity attack!

you should hire me! I love this freaking game so much but i want it to demand more skills to get this kind of great ships.

Nice lateral thinking, there are also of course the requirements to fit the covert ops cloak.
I also think that to get above 37.5 covert ops skills should apply your idea is good.
And if covert ops skill is trained it makes sense to be able to scan as a covert ops and also access relic and data sites in the same way,
Very good compromise.

In summation, covert ops not required to operate the craft, cloaking IV skill required to fit and operate the covert ops cloak (as present)
Covert ops skill required to access enhanced scanning and improved data and relic site virus bonus to +10 no bonus over standard explorer frigate without.This ensures that advanced abilities do not bypass skill training and prevent the ships being low entry covert ops.thereby preserving the covert ops ships which would be still be available. For those that want them.
These new ships can then function as explorers with the training in covert ops, without stepping on too many peoples toes? At the very least if people did not want to use all their advantages they could be used as a fifth (expensive) faction covert ops.or a combat vessel depending on their skills training path.

Ideal compromise, no rational reason why this would not be acceptable.

I substitute this proposal for my original viewpoint and recommend this improved suggestion wholeheartedly, I am pleased to be able to embrace a better idea from others,thank you for your insight.



I would welcome comments from explorers and those who have concerns that the covert ops would be destroyed by these ships on this proposal.
Explorers would you be happy to spend the time skill training to be exactly as effective as the covert ops?and happy that until you did would have lesser capabilities? But you had the choice as to whether that was important to you?
Others would you object in principle to explorers being able to train to get these abilities if they also had to pay a lot more and spend considerable time training?
Or do you always want these ships to be unable to do the more difficult null sites as effectively as a covert ops regardless of how hard they trained.

To encourage response I personally would be happy to train to be able to use these ships for exploration to the best of my ability and not restricted,I will train all skills required. And I will use these ships rather than my covert ops as the extra functionality is useful to me as an explorer.I would welcome the opportunity to use whichever ship is suitable. I will make the choice to use the covert ops when the risk of loss vs cost makes that more suitable.not because it is the only option.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Tzar Sinak
Mythic Heights
#1380 - 2013-10-08 17:55:00 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:


As the Gallente-Amarr hybrid ship, the main theme is armor and drones. The energy weapon bonus is meant to encourage laser use by partially nullifying their biggest drawback without making lasers feel compulsory as opposed to other weapons.


If that is the case why can't missile launchers be fitted? Amarr use missiles.

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