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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5041 - 2013-10-08 14:49:48 UTC
gascanu wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
Cassius Invictus wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:


My Golem boosts for 26% of my shield with an X-L pith X shield booster while bastioned.

That's insane...
I can also hold several cap boosters...

Basically, if you can completely one shot by Golem, the I wouldn't have had a chance anyway.

However, even if you have High aplha, I can refill my shields in 4 cycles..


You don't do much PvP do you? Even if u could rep 50% of your shields, 10-15 Tornados (sorry don't want to count exact figure) would one-shot you. You would not be able to run a single rep cycle.


And how exactly would any other action help me?

If i'm 1 shot alpha'd with iteration 1, i'll be one shot alpha'd with anything else CCP could do to these ships apart from giving them capital EHP.

How is being alpha'd even a consideration?
Nothing will save you from this..



Again, if you can alpha my ship down, then no amount of logistics and buffer tank will save me.

As far as neuts, many of us have mentioned that since these ships can't receive cap, they should be immune to neut.


sry but you are wrong: basically is a combination of sig tank+rr that will save you; moving around with sig bonuses means that a good part from the incoming dmg will not apply; in a large fleet fight time dilatation/lag will give you a small window of several seconds for logis to start reping you, and if you are lucky you may live;
in bastion mod tho, you are at 0m/s and can't get rr, =dead marauder


Even before the Mobility nerfs, Marauders were too slow and their sig was too large to be able to negate much damage at all.

If you can be alpha'd down with iteration 1, you certainly would have been alpha'd down as it is on live, and with iteration 2, and for any other possible changes for that matter.(balanced changes that is)
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
#5042 - 2013-10-08 14:51:12 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
gascanu wrote:


yes, cose this are the stats for a very good pvp ship: slow like hell, alining "faster" than a carrier, and with a sensor sthrenth of an t1 cruiser - noone use ecm anyway Cool. but that don't count cose you have bastion mode, lol


Fast enough to get around without too many issues. The only fleets I rule these out on are frigate fleets.


haha, i see, nice troll Sad
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#5043 - 2013-10-08 14:55:33 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

I suppose you skipped over the part where CCP Ytterbium said these ships will be made viable for pvp and not focused on pve.



Thing is that apart from the "niche" part these ships bring nothing to the pvp table another battleship can't do as good.
On paper maybe, in a very tiny amount of examples probably, for pvp (in general) nope.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#5044 - 2013-10-08 14:56:33 UTC
gascanu wrote:


haha, i see, nice troll Sad


I take Megathrons on frigate roams and fleets.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#5045 - 2013-10-08 14:58:11 UTC
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

I suppose you skipped over the part where CCP Ytterbium said these ships will be made viable for pvp and not focused on pve.



Thing is that apart from the "niche" part these ships bring nothing to the pvp table another battleship can't do as good.
On paper maybe, in a very tiny amount of examples probably, for pvp (in general) nope.


They are the only snipers that can take a punch in small gang fights.
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
#5046 - 2013-10-08 15:00:13 UTC  |  Edited by: gascanu
Joe Risalo wrote:
gascanu wrote:




.............................................................................................................................................
sry but you are wrong: basically is a combination of sig tank+rr that will save you; moving around with sig bonuses means that a good part from the incoming dmg will not apply; in a large fleet fight time dilatation/lag will give you a small window of several seconds for logis to start reping you, and if you are lucky you may live;
in bastion mod tho, you are at 0m/s and can't get rr, =dead marauder


Even before the Mobility nerfs, Marauders were too slow and their sig was too large to be able to negate much damage at all.

If you can be alpha'd down with iteration 1, you certainly would have been alpha'd down as it is on live, and with iteration 2, and for any other possible changes for that matter.(balanced changes that is)


well, maybe that's why noone used them in fleet fights? they are too expensive and t1 bs can do the same job at a fraction of the cost;
making them them imobile or nerfing mobility won't make them see much more action.
and no, that mjd bonus won't help Cool
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5047 - 2013-10-08 15:03:23 UTC
gascanu wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
gascanu wrote:




.............................................................................................................................................
sry but you are wrong: basically is a combination of sig tank+rr that will save you; moving around with sig bonuses means that a good part from the incoming dmg will not apply; in a large fleet fight time dilatation/lag will give you a small window of several seconds for logis to start reping you, and if you are lucky you may live;
in bastion mod tho, you are at 0m/s and can't get rr, =dead marauder


Even before the Mobility nerfs, Marauders were too slow and their sig was too large to be able to negate much damage at all.

If you can be alpha'd down with iteration 1, you certainly would have been alpha'd down as it is on live, and with iteration 2, and for any other possible changes for that matter.(balanced changes that is)


well, maybe that's why noone used them in fleet fights? they are too expensive and t1 bs can do the same job at a fraction of the cost;
making them them imobile or nerfing mobility won't make them see much more action.
and no, that mjd bonus won't help Cool


Agreed.
However, it's not like we're losing anything here.
We're actually gaining more, seeing as how mobility never helped.

At least now we have tank to be able to accomplish something.
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
#5048 - 2013-10-08 15:06:50 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
gascanu wrote:


haha, i see, nice troll Sad


I take Megathrons on frigate roams and fleets.


you like to fell special, eh?
Vinyl 41
AdVictis
#5049 - 2013-10-08 15:10:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Vinyl 41
Joe Risalo wrote:
gascanu wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
gascanu wrote:




.............................................................................................................................................
sry but you are wrong: basically is a combination of sig tank+rr that will save you; moving around with sig bonuses means that a good part from the incoming dmg will not apply; in a large fleet fight time dilatation/lag will give you a small window of several seconds for logis to start reping you, and if you are lucky you may live;
in bastion mod tho, you are at 0m/s and can't get rr, =dead marauder


Even before the Mobility nerfs, Marauders were too slow and their sig was too large to be able to negate much damage at all.

If you can be alpha'd down with iteration 1, you certainly would have been alpha'd down as it is on live, and with iteration 2, and for any other possible changes for that matter.(balanced changes that is)


well, maybe that's why noone used them in fleet fights? they are too expensive and t1 bs can do the same job at a fraction of the cost;
making them them imobile or nerfing mobility won't make them see much more action.
and no, that mjd bonus won't help Cool


Agreed.
However, it's not like we're losing anything here.
We're actually gaining more, seeing as how mobility never helped.

At least now we have tank to be able to accomplish something.


if you claim that mobility never helped so let me link you smt Twisted
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=284795&find=unread your own topic
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#5050 - 2013-10-08 15:10:41 UTC
gascanu wrote:


you like to fell special, eh?


I like my Megathrons and pushing them to their limits.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5051 - 2013-10-08 15:13:17 UTC
Vinyl 41 wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
gascanu wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
gascanu wrote:




.............................................................................................................................................
sry but you are wrong: basically is a combination of sig tank+rr that will save you; moving around with sig bonuses means that a good part from the incoming dmg will not apply; in a large fleet fight time dilatation/lag will give you a small window of several seconds for logis to start reping you, and if you are lucky you may live;
in bastion mod tho, you are at 0m/s and can't get rr, =dead marauder


Even before the Mobility nerfs, Marauders were too slow and their sig was too large to be able to negate much damage at all.

If you can be alpha'd down with iteration 1, you certainly would have been alpha'd down as it is on live, and with iteration 2, and for any other possible changes for that matter.(balanced changes that is)


well, maybe that's why noone used them in fleet fights? they are too expensive and t1 bs can do the same job at a fraction of the cost;
making them them imobile or nerfing mobility won't make them see much more action.
and no, that mjd bonus won't help Cool


Agreed.
However, it's not like we're losing anything here.
We're actually gaining more, seeing as how mobility never helped.

At least now we have tank to be able to accomplish something.


if you claim that mobility never helped so let me link you smt Twisted
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=284795&find=unread your own topic



yeah, and???

That topic and the topic at hand are two different things.

If I DC, i'm not tanking... If i'm Bastioned and connected, I'm tanking just fine.

Huge difference between combat mobility, and DC safety warp...
TheFace Asano
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#5052 - 2013-10-08 15:15:22 UTC
Set up a vargur last night on SiSi. It was much easier to fit on the powergrid side With 800mm AC I was sitting at around 900 dps (3x gyros and burst + collision rigs), had a TC and a TE. Falloff in bastion was just shy of 100km with Barrage. I will be moving out to null tonight to test it more on targets. I will test both AC and Arty fits.

Resist profile was excellent in bastion with 2x invuls only. 4 slot tank so far and I will be trying it with both dual ASB and deadspace 4 slot tanks. I will be using my CNR (which is really good at running anoms and usually out ticks my AC / Arty setups at 60km+ ranges to test against to see if the extra projection will allow for more applied dps from those ranges.

My current thoughts:

This is pretty insane projection for ACs.

I still feel there is too much going on here, the tractor bonus, the somewhat useless highs if your not salvaging, the overtank (2x XL ASB had 2000+ rep / 4 sec before the bastion). The ship can relocate and setup easily now. I really like that, it is just the ship seems all over the place with its design. Conceptually it is sound I think.

The ships need larger drone bays badly. i think that 100mb bandwidth / 175 space would work really well, allow for 4x sentries (which would really blend well with the stationary aspect of the Bastion module) and provide the extra dps boost these things need to be really competitive without stepping on other ships toes. Setup around 100km from targets, keep that 100 km target range by jumping every 60 seconds. Each time dropping Sentry Drones to add to dps. As of now 2x sentry drones is really not worth dropping. The current drone bay is also pretty useless as it is just 50/50. If we keep it lower than most battleships they should all at least have 50/75 for a full flight of lights and mediums.
Vorseger
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#5053 - 2013-10-08 15:19:40 UTC
Cassius Invictus wrote:


Solution:

1. Actually turning those ships into giant HAC would solve most of the above problems (but it’s unlikely).

2. Bastion could give only range and ewar immunity, 30% resists should be part of the hull (NOT t2 resists). Bastion should disallow remote repping but NOT movement. It should obviously disallow warping.

3. CCP take your MJD and try to use it. If you can find a good application for it pls let us know. For now give us MWD or AB bonus.

4. Unnerf the hull.

5. Don't improve sensors. Leave e-war immunity on bastion. If i get jammed I either sit nad cry or I commit to bastion.

6. Don't improve dornes - their nerf is fine.

7. If u don't want to give bastion a dps bonus don't make hull useless withut it. [...]

8. Pls reveal to us the great secret of what this t2 specialized ship is specialized at.


Something along these lines I agree with.
Especially along the lines of #1.
marVLs
#5054 - 2013-10-08 15:25:41 UTC
Let's see, warp speed changes: 99% satisfied with it, same goes with other Rubicon features, changes but on marauders? 99% players are disappointed/dont wan't it/says it's bad.

So how does that say about these changes? How many times players agreed on something in such a huge percentage numbers?


TheFace Asano <== no they don't need bigger drones bandwigh and vargur is tbh the worst of all now, and it gains almost nothing of range in bastion, go test it, even there's a EFT files with Rubicon changes
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5055 - 2013-10-08 15:31:00 UTC
marVLs wrote:
Let's see, warp speed changes: 99% satisfied with it, same goes with other Rubicon features, changes but on marauders? 99% players are disappointed/dont wan't it/says it's bad.

So how does that say about these changes? How many times players agreed on something in such a huge percentage numbers?


TheFace Asano <== no they don't need bigger drones bandwigh and vargur is tbh the worst of all now, and it gains almost nothing of range in bastion, go test it, even there's a EFT files with Rubicon changes



Not true...

I would say the crowd is split 50-50 on bastion.
I personally love it.

HOWEVER, what 99% of us CAN agree on, is that the nerfs to the hull to push bastion and MJD weren't necessary at all.

Those nerfs had little to no effect on bastion mode.

All they did was force the module to be mandatory.

I like bastion and will use it as long as it stays this way.

However, NO ONE will use the base hull without bastion.

It's the hull that needs looked at.



Make the hulls viable, then implement bastion, and possibly apply fitting penalties.
That way players can't just fly around in what would basically be two different ships.

Bastion, or lack of bastion should be a commitment.
If you want it on your ship, you should be using it.

If you don't want it on your ship, then you shouldn't be able to swap back and forth
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#5056 - 2013-10-08 15:31:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
marVLs wrote:
... vargur is tbh the worst of all now, and it gains almost nothing of range in bastion, go test it, even there's a EFT files with Rubicon changes


EFT is kind of useless compared to field testing on SiSi, don't you think so?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#5057 - 2013-10-08 15:31:23 UTC
marVLs wrote:
Let's see, warp speed changes: 99% satisfied with it, same goes with other Rubicon features, changes but on marauders? 99% players are disappointed/dont wan't it/says it's bad.

So how does that say about these changes? How many times players agreed on something in such a huge percentage numbers?


TheFace Asano <== no they don't need bigger drones bandwigh and vargur is tbh the worst of all now, and it gains almost nothing of range in bastion, go test it, even there's a EFT files with Rubicon changes


90% of the posts are from PvE players who want to do missions even faster than now.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#5058 - 2013-10-08 15:34:40 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
marVLs wrote:
Let's see, warp speed changes: 99% satisfied with it, same goes with other Rubicon features, changes but on marauders? 99% players are disappointed/dont wan't it/says it's bad.

So how does that say about these changes? How many times players agreed on something in such a huge percentage numbers?


TheFace Asano <== no they don't need bigger drones bandwigh and vargur is tbh the worst of all now, and it gains almost nothing of range in bastion, go test it, even there's a EFT files with Rubicon changes


90% of the posts are from PvE players who want to do missions even faster than now.


Can I be the PvE player who wants to do missions with them and see PvP players do interesting things with them too?
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5059 - 2013-10-08 15:38:13 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
marVLs wrote:
Let's see, warp speed changes: 99% satisfied with it, same goes with other Rubicon features, changes but on marauders? 99% players are disappointed/dont wan't it/says it's bad.

So how does that say about these changes? How many times players agreed on something in such a huge percentage numbers?


TheFace Asano <== no they don't need bigger drones bandwigh and vargur is tbh the worst of all now, and it gains almost nothing of range in bastion, go test it, even there's a EFT files with Rubicon changes


90% of the posts are from PvE players who want to do missions even faster than now.


Can I be the PvE player who wants to do missions with them and see PvP players do interesting things with them too?



TBH, while these may not be uber pvp ships, I think we're going to see a lot of "LOL, WTF?!?" PVP videos out of these.


Yes, they may be extremely niche, but I think it will be hilarious to watch them perform in those niche roles.
Hanna Cyrus
Spessart Rebellen
#5060 - 2013-10-08 15:40:50 UTC
baltec1 wrote:


90% of the posts are from PvE players who want to do missions even faster than now.


Ok, i get a mission. I have to undock and warp to my destination, that is maybe from 1 to 5 Jumps away (in the region i fly).
With the Inertia nerf and the warpspeed nerf, it's total cool to jump around. You lost dps trough less bandwith for drones. Then in the mission i have a few gates (i have to warp!), after finishing it, yes! I have to warp back...

I think, you don't use this ships really - or even have the skills to use it? Have you tested it? Even when the Bastion thing gets a little extra dps, the mission runner will be slower. If you can't test themselfs don't post here, thanks.