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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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gascanu
Bearing Srl.
#5021 - 2013-10-08 13:48:22 UTC
baltec1 wrote:


You keep on ignoring the fact that the vindi can move to keep your enemy in web range where as the kronos cannot move. 90% webs will work well if you can keep them in antimatter range but given that almost every fight happens in null range and that the kronos cannot move and no web you fit to it can reach as far the the blasters can go there is no point at all in fitting them.

You litereally cannot dictate range in the new kronos. Its a long range boat and as such webs have no part to play on it. The best use for webs is for one of your gang mates to be in one of the new EA-Frigs providing web goodness out to something like 80km. For close range you can use someone in a dedicated frig killer or slap on smartbombs or med neuts and use your lights to kill it. Battleship class guns, especially rails are never going to hit these even with a 90% web on a stationary ship. A web bonus would be just another wasted bonus like the tractors in pvp.


how the hell a 90% web is not usefull on a bs sized ship? can you give an example of such a ship?
this ships won't see much pvp with they new bastion mod, except for station games for example and there a 90% web will be very useful...

Quote:
You litereally cannot dictate range in the new kronos. Its a long range boat and as such webs have no part to play on it


lol...how the hell can he be a long range ship if you are not able to dictate range??? that long range ship will become very fast a close range gank Lol
just because you cannot see what use 90% web have on such a ship does not mean they are worthless
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#5022 - 2013-10-08 13:48:37 UTC
The Djego wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
The Djego wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
The Djego wrote:


It is very useful on a rail/sentry ship(because it allows it to hit up close) and for various other pve and pvp stuff. The problem is simply that you got no clue about Marauders(or gallente hulls and hybrids for that matter).


You might want to look up what it is I am famous for before throwing that accusation about.


I remember you for all your nonsense you posted in hybrid and gallente threads over the years. I know who you are.


Megathron hulls are what I do and CCP teircide and blaster balances have gone along the same path I have suggested.

I know how these hulls work and you thinking that they need a web bonus so that rails can hit smaller targets in pvp at close range is just daft. Gal could do with a long range rail BS as opposed to yet another vindi blaster boat that would not get used because the vindi would be better at that job anyway.


Fitted with blasters any hull is miles more useful with a web strength bonus than one without it in solo/small gang pvp, because the web bonus actually allows to hit the target properly, give you range control at point blank and it also fixes the major flaw of rails up close(tracking, what actually made them a halve way useful pve weapon).

As a blaster ship it trades in utility, a better tank, better cargo for cap charges and better resists against a extra med and the much higher dps of the Vindi, what just needs a few adjustments to get to a point where it would actually be a good alternative(it is already with rails in my personal opinion, mostly because of the much better fitting and cap).

The Kronos currently is a fairly mobile rail projection platform that combines good speed with huge range and good utility. With the changes it loses to much sentry dps to be worth it, the active tank stuff is pointless as soon as 2-3 logis are on the field, the range bonus of bastion is pointless because you are extreme easy to tackle if you have to sit still for 1-2 minutes and the lower speed just makes it impractical choice both as rail ship and blaster platform in pvp.

Overall it is just a lot worse then the current Kronos, since the oversized active tank is only useful in a few niches, while the speed, dps and web nerf handy cap it for any other application in pvp and pve all the time.


Don't waste your time fighting this guy.
He has not had to grind income in a long long time, and he get's his jollies ganking high sec freighters and PvE ships. This is the ultimate gank, encouraging CCP to nerf an entire line of PvE ships, hammering PvE income.

Rest assured, if this guy is rooting for a change, it is horrible for PvE players, which he is most certainly not.
Vinyl 41
AdVictis
#5023 - 2013-10-08 13:48:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Vinyl 41
Hanna Cyrus wrote:
After further testing the marauders, it seems to me, that the bastion thing work for two marauders ok, (Golem/Paladin) and for the others i have tested not so well. The Problem i see is that you can't give the same bonus for all weapon types on the marauders.

One benefits more, another not. You have to individually balance the bastion module for every ship. Or better tie not so much in this thing no one really wants.


golem works the same as on tq but there is could atleast move here it just sits there - thats mega borring zzz - spamming f1 and f2 all time is lame i want the movement back ;]
the only people i can see liking the new golem are afk missioners with bots that do all that borring stuff for them
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5024 - 2013-10-08 13:54:26 UTC
Cassius Invictus wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:


My Golem boosts for 26% of my shield with an X-L pith X shield booster while bastioned.

That's insane...
I can also hold several cap boosters...

Basically, if you can completely one shot by Golem, the I wouldn't have had a chance anyway.

However, even if you have High aplha, I can refill my shields in 4 cycles..


You don't do much PvP do you? Even if u could rep 50% of your shields, 10-15 Tornados (sorry don't want to count exact figure) would one-shot you. You would not be able to run a single rep cycle.


And how exactly would any other action help me?

If i'm 1 shot alpha'd with iteration 1, i'll be one shot alpha'd with anything else CCP could do to these ships apart from giving them capital EHP.

How is being alpha'd even a consideration?
Nothing will save you from this..


Quote:
My Kronos can rep up 1/3 of the armor in one cycle, still you will horrible die once you have some neuts on you and meal storms with ASBs already can tank insane amounts and are also just niche ships in pvp, outside being alpha fitted and buffer tanked for fleet use.


Again, if you can alpha my ship down, then no amount of logistics and buffer tank will save me.

As far as neuts, many of us have mentioned that since these ships can't receive cap, they should be immune to neut.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#5025 - 2013-10-08 13:56:56 UTC
gascanu wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


You keep on ignoring the fact that the vindi can move to keep your enemy in web range where as the kronos cannot move. 90% webs will work well if you can keep them in antimatter range but given that almost every fight happens in null range and that the kronos cannot move and no web you fit to it can reach as far the the blasters can go there is no point at all in fitting them.

You litereally cannot dictate range in the new kronos. Its a long range boat and as such webs have no part to play on it. The best use for webs is for one of your gang mates to be in one of the new EA-Frigs providing web goodness out to something like 80km. For close range you can use someone in a dedicated frig killer or slap on smartbombs or med neuts and use your lights to kill it. Battleship class guns, especially rails are never going to hit these even with a 90% web on a stationary ship. A web bonus would be just another wasted bonus like the tractors in pvp.


how the hell a 90% web is not usefull on a bs sized ship? can you give an example of such a ship?
this ships won't see much pvp with they new bastion mod, except for station games for example and there a 90% web will be very useful...

Quote:
You litereally cannot dictate range in the new kronos. Its a long range boat and as such webs have no part to play on it


lol...how the hell can he be a long range ship if you are not able to dictate range??? that long range ship will become very fast a close range gank Lol
just because you cannot see what use 90% web have on such a ship does not mean they are worthless


Tell me, how do you dictate range while unable to move?

Then tell me how a 90% web that will realistically have a 15km rage will be good on a ship that cannot move when something like 80% of ships out there will have a greater range than that?

The chance to use those webs will be rare and quite frankly the vindi will simply be better at this job. The one and only reason people are pushing for it is for PVE.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5026 - 2013-10-08 13:58:36 UTC
Vinyl 41 wrote:
Hanna Cyrus wrote:
After further testing the marauders, it seems to me, that the bastion thing work for two marauders ok, (Golem/Paladin) and for the others i have tested not so well. The Problem i see is that you can't give the same bonus for all weapon types on the marauders.

One benefits more, another not. You have to individually balance the bastion module for every ship. Or better tie not so much in this thing no one really wants.


golem works the same as on tq but there is could atleast move here it just sits there - thats mega borring zzz - spamming f1 and f2 all time is lame i want the movement back ;]
the only people i can see liking the new golem are afk missioners with bots that do all that borring stuff for them


the only time I have ever relied on mobility when missioning was with a Drake and a Tengu.

Never once have I kited with a BS, expecially a Marauder.



Currently on test I am getting 106m/s with my Golem... Not fast, but not as slow as I thought it was going to be.
I fit a MWD as opposed to an MJD because it's just more useful.


I would very much like to see CCP give them a MWD cap usage bonus AND an MJD bonus.
Most players are only going to be using one or the other, as they have a high fitting demand.
So let the players choose.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#5027 - 2013-10-08 13:59:47 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:


Don't waste your time fighting this guy.
He has not had to grind income in a long long time, and he get's his jollies ganking high sec freighters and PvE ships. This is the ultimate gank, encouraging CCP to nerf an entire line of PvE ships, hammering PvE income.

Rest assured, if this guy is rooting for a change, it is horrible for PvE players, which he is most certainly not.


My heart bleeds for you min/maxers. I want a ship that can do PvP and a PvE focused ship is useless for this.
Hanna Cyrus
Spessart Rebellen
#5028 - 2013-10-08 14:01:05 UTC
Vinyl 41 wrote:
Hanna Cyrus wrote:
After further testing the marauders, it seems to me, that the bastion thing work for two marauders ok, (Golem/Paladin) and for the others i have tested not so well. The Problem i see is that you can't give the same bonus for all weapon types on the marauders.

One benefits more, another not. You have to individually balance the bastion module for every ship. Or better tie not so much in this thing no one really wants.


golem works the same as on tq but there is could atleast move here it just sits there - thats mega borring zzz - spamming f1 and f2 all time is lame i want the movement back ;]
the only people i can see liking the new golem are afk missioners with bots that do all that borring stuff for them


I mean with these two ship you can projekt damage much better, than with the other two (Kronos / Vargur). For them is the speed nerf bad. They loose to much damage at sittig stil, the Golem and the Paladin projekt much better.

This means not, that i like the bastion thing. If i can decide it, nastion in this form would never happen. The Djego is right with his posts.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5029 - 2013-10-08 14:02:58 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:


Don't waste your time fighting this guy.
He has not had to grind income in a long long time, and he get's his jollies ganking high sec freighters and PvE ships. This is the ultimate gank, encouraging CCP to nerf an entire line of PvE ships, hammering PvE income.

Rest assured, if this guy is rooting for a change, it is horrible for PvE players, which he is most certainly not.


My heart bleeds for you min/maxers. I want a ship that can do PvP and a PvE focused ship is useless for this.



Perhaps you should fly another ship then?

Marauders have been PVE focused since they were introduced.

I suppose you're waiting on the Pirate/faction rebalance, ""as these are not the ships you're looking for""
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
#5030 - 2013-10-08 14:03:55 UTC  |  Edited by: gascanu
Joe Risalo wrote:
Cassius Invictus wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:


My Golem boosts for 26% of my shield with an X-L pith X shield booster while bastioned.

That's insane...
I can also hold several cap boosters...

Basically, if you can completely one shot by Golem, the I wouldn't have had a chance anyway.

However, even if you have High aplha, I can refill my shields in 4 cycles..


You don't do much PvP do you? Even if u could rep 50% of your shields, 10-15 Tornados (sorry don't want to count exact figure) would one-shot you. You would not be able to run a single rep cycle.


And how exactly would any other action help me?

If i'm 1 shot alpha'd with iteration 1, i'll be one shot alpha'd with anything else CCP could do to these ships apart from giving them capital EHP.

How is being alpha'd even a consideration?
Nothing will save you from this..



Again, if you can alpha my ship down, then no amount of logistics and buffer tank will save me.

As far as neuts, many of us have mentioned that since these ships can't receive cap, they should be immune to neut.


sry but you are wrong: basically is a combination of sig tank+rr that will save you; moving around with sig bonuses means that a good part from the incoming dmg will not apply; in a large fleet fight time dilatation/lag will give you a small window of several seconds for logis to start reping you, and if you are lucky you may live;
in bastion mod tho, you are at 0m/s and can't get rr, =dead marauder
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5031 - 2013-10-08 14:05:27 UTC
Hanna Cyrus wrote:
Vinyl 41 wrote:
Hanna Cyrus wrote:
After further testing the marauders, it seems to me, that the bastion thing work for two marauders ok, (Golem/Paladin) and for the others i have tested not so well. The Problem i see is that you can't give the same bonus for all weapon types on the marauders.

One benefits more, another not. You have to individually balance the bastion module for every ship. Or better tie not so much in this thing no one really wants.


golem works the same as on tq but there is could atleast move here it just sits there - thats mega borring zzz - spamming f1 and f2 all time is lame i want the movement back ;]
the only people i can see liking the new golem are afk missioners with bots that do all that borring stuff for them


I mean with these two ship you can projekt damage much better, than with the other two (Kronos / Vargur). For them is the speed nerf bad. They loose to much damage at sittig stil, the Golem and the Paladin projekt much better.

This means not, that i like the bastion thing. If i can decide it, nastion in this form would never happen. The Djego is right with his posts.


I would say the ship that's getting the most benefit from the range buff is the one that actually doesn't really need it.

With my skills out of bastion a cruise Golem can project Fury to 166km.
With bastion it hits 208km.

That's a 42km range bump.
It's awesome, but again, like I stated, i don't really need that on a cruise Golem.
However, a torp golem doesn't get hardly crap from this bonus...
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#5032 - 2013-10-08 14:12:13 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Joe Risalo wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:


Don't waste your time fighting this guy.
He has not had to grind income in a long long time, and he get's his jollies ganking high sec freighters and PvE ships. This is the ultimate gank, encouraging CCP to nerf an entire line of PvE ships, hammering PvE income.

Rest assured, if this guy is rooting for a change, it is horrible for PvE players, which he is most certainly not.


My heart bleeds for you min/maxers. I want a ship that can do PvP and a PvE focused ship is useless for this.



Perhaps you should fly another ship then?

Marauders have been PVE focused since they were introduced.

I suppose you're waiting on the Pirate/faction rebalance, ""as these are not the ships you're looking for""


I suppose you skipped over the part where CCP Ytterbium said these ships will be made viable for pvp and not focused on pve.
The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
#5033 - 2013-10-08 14:19:03 UTC  |  Edited by: The Djego
baltec1 wrote:

You keep on ignoring the fact that the vindi can move to keep your enemy in web range where as the kronos cannot move. 90% webs will work well if you can keep them in antimatter range but given that almost every fight happens in null range and that the kronos cannot move and no web you fit to it can reach as far the the blasters can go there is no point at all in fitting them.

You litereally cannot dictate range in the new kronos. Its a long range boat and as such webs have no part to play on it. The best use for webs is for one of your gang mates to be in one of the new EA-Frigs providing web goodness out to something like 80km. For close range you can use someone in a dedicated frig killer or slap on smartbombs or med neuts and use your lights to kill it. Battleship class guns, especially rails are never going to hit these even with a 90% web on a stationary ship. A web bonus would be just another wasted bonus like the tractors in pvp.


That is exactly why I think the hole bastion thing is pointless to begin with. Btw groups of the current marauders are used to 2 volley frigs in pve gangs and far better at it than any frig or medium platform.

In my opinion CCP should leave the current marauders as they are(or finally fix them as I posted so many times in this thread ) and introduce the new idea as a 2. marauder BS, with the same hull and a slightly different paint job(I don't like the copper on the new Kronos anyway).

You can also make them cheaper this way(a 500-600M price tag would make them more reasonable for WH solo pve and pvp), because I don't really think the new marauder idea is anywhere useful enough given the current price tag. both for her limited niche pvp and pve use with the changes.

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#5034 - 2013-10-08 14:23:16 UTC
The Djego wrote:


That is exactly why I think the hole bastion thing is pointless to begin with. Btw groups of the current marauders are used to 2 volley frigs in pve gangs and far better at it than any frig or medium platform.

In my opinion CCP should leave the current marauders as they are(or finally fix them as I posted so many times in this thread ) and introduce the new idea as a 2. marauder BS, with the same hull and a slightly different paint(I don't like the copper on the new Kronos).

You can also make them cheaper this way(a 500-600M price tag would make them more reasonable for WH solo pve and pvp), because I don't really think the new marauder idea is anywhere useful enough given the current price tag. both for pvp and pve.


PvE frigs are nothing like frigs in PvP.

This is where you are falling down. You are trying to balance these ships with PvE in mind thinking that they will also be good at PvP. This is simply not the case.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5035 - 2013-10-08 14:25:54 UTC
The Djego wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

You keep on ignoring the fact that the vindi can move to keep your enemy in web range where as the kronos cannot move. 90% webs will work well if you can keep them in antimatter range but given that almost every fight happens in null range and that the kronos cannot move and no web you fit to it can reach as far the the blasters can go there is no point at all in fitting them.

You litereally cannot dictate range in the new kronos. Its a long range boat and as such webs have no part to play on it. The best use for webs is for one of your gang mates to be in one of the new EA-Frigs providing web goodness out to something like 80km. For close range you can use someone in a dedicated frig killer or slap on smartbombs or med neuts and use your lights to kill it. Battleship class guns, especially rails are never going to hit these even with a 90% web on a stationary ship. A web bonus would be just another wasted bonus like the tractors in pvp.


That is exactly why I think the hole bastion thing is pointless to begin with. Btw groups of the current marauders are used to 2 volley frigs in pve gangs and far better at it than any frig or medium platform.

In my opinion CCP should leave the current marauders as they are(or finally fix them as I posted so many times in this thread ) and introduce the new idea as a 2. marauder BS, with the same hull and a slightly different paint(I don't like the copper on the new Kronos).

You can also make them cheaper this way(a 500-600M price tag would make them more reasonable for WH solo pve and pvp), because I don't really think the new marauder idea is anywhere useful enough given the current price tag. both for her limited niche pvp and pve use with the changes.



I'm going to have to disagree a bit.

First, if CCP designs another t2 ship, then that ship should be the pvp focused ship, as Marauders have always been PVE focus.

From what I gather, Marauders are meant for solo PVE, which as they are on test... They do quite well.

As they are on test server, I feel that I would be able to do a lvl 5 mission quite well, which I wouldn't have even considered attempting with a Marauder pre iteration 1, and I still wouldn't consider with iteration 2.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5036 - 2013-10-08 14:26:49 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
The Djego wrote:


That is exactly why I think the hole bastion thing is pointless to begin with. Btw groups of the current marauders are used to 2 volley frigs in pve gangs and far better at it than any frig or medium platform.

In my opinion CCP should leave the current marauders as they are(or finally fix them as I posted so many times in this thread ) and introduce the new idea as a 2. marauder BS, with the same hull and a slightly different paint(I don't like the copper on the new Kronos).

You can also make them cheaper this way(a 500-600M price tag would make them more reasonable for WH solo pve and pvp), because I don't really think the new marauder idea is anywhere useful enough given the current price tag. both for pvp and pve.


PvE frigs are nothing like frigs in PvP.

This is where you are falling down. You are trying to balance these ships with PvE in mind thinking that they will also be good at PvP. This is simply not the case.


No, CCP designed them with PVE in mind, and noted they would have niche abilities in PVP.

Read OP
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
#5037 - 2013-10-08 14:30:22 UTC  |  Edited by: gascanu
baltec1 wrote:




I suppose you skipped over the part where CCP Ytterbium said these ships will be made viable for pvp and not focused on pve.



Quote:
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 85 m/s(-20) / .12 / 114195000(+8995000) / 19s

Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 95km(+5km) / 105(+32) / 10
Sensor strength: 14 Gravimetric


yes, cose this are the stats for a very good pvp ship: slow like hell, alining "faster" than a carrier, and with a sensor sthrenth of an t1 cruiser - noone use ecm anyway Cool. but that don't count cose you have bastion mode, lol
The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
#5038 - 2013-10-08 14:35:49 UTC  |  Edited by: The Djego
Joe Risalo wrote:



I'm going to have to disagree a bit.

First, if CCP designs another t2 ship, then that ship should be the pvp focused ship, as Marauders have always been PVE focus.

From what I gather, Marauders are meant for solo PVE, which as they are on test... They do quite well.


Fit some torps and a mwd on the Golem, see how terrible it is. If you need that much tank you doing it wrong, tanking L4(2 slots) with the changes is so hilarious easy, it is not even funny and it frees up not a single slot and makes the performance overall worse.


Joe Risalo wrote:
As they are on test server, I feel that I would be able to do a lvl 5 mission quite well, which I wouldn't have even considered attempting with a Marauder pre iteration 1, and I still wouldn't consider with iteration 2.


Marauders can do them already if you dualbox a logi and a marauder(super duper easy) or do it like any other people that seriously do L5, use a carrier(it is stated in every single post about L5).

The only time you need this much tank in pve, there are more effective ways to do this already(logis), and a cheaper 2. hull variation for WH or people that want to active tank L5(right before they get ganked) and pvp would be overall more useful.

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
SevenOfSix
Doomheim
#5039 - 2013-10-08 14:46:42 UTC
Change bastion mode to only allow remote rep, add HP to armor and shields, keep resists / range / ewar immunity, allow the micro jump drive to work when bastioned.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#5040 - 2013-10-08 14:48:25 UTC
gascanu wrote:


yes, cose this are the stats for a very good pvp ship: slow like hell, alining "faster" than a carrier, and with a sensor sthrenth of an t1 cruiser - noone use ecm anyway Cool. but that don't count cose you have bastion mode, lol


Fast enough to get around without too many issues. The only fleets I rule these out on are frigate fleets.