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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Doctor'X
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#4961 - 2013-10-08 04:11:55 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
[quote=Vorseger]

Personally, instead of making bastion a one size fits all, they should build the hulls to be an individual ship without bastion considered and then come back and build bastion so that it modifies the ship and all its bonuses.

This way, instead of having nerfed ships and a module that effects them all equally.
You would have viable individual ships that when fitted with bastion essentially becomes a different ship, with bonuses built specifically for that hull.

This would make CCPs ultimate goal of allowing bastion on other ships much simpler, and would allow them to customize bastion to the ship, and give it individual design of its own.



This. By fitting a bastion module the marauder should morph into this new, slow, dreadnaught-esque form. Make it work this way, even if it takes more time.

Marauders should be viable without a bastion module, right now it seems like you have to have a bastion module on these ships. How 2007 is that?

This idea "fits" Eve better.
Zand Vor
OpSec.
Wrong Hole.
#4962 - 2013-10-08 04:15:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Zand Vor
Flying Golem around, maybe I'm missing a few things

- The Bastion Shield Boost bonus doesnt' show up in the ship fitting Defense window. Broken or Intentional?
- Shield Boost Amplifier doesn't appear to work with the Bastion module. Broken or Intentional?

I have relatively good shield skills, I expected slightly better performance out of the Baston shield platform. The repair rate seems slow when active, and again, there's no feedback in the fitting window about it. With no shield extender (10k shield) I'm seeing about 7 shield/tick compared to 1 shield/tick. I'd expect a bit more, tho I'll say my fit probably isn't optimally setup.

Graphics: I'll be the one guy who likes the new angular look way better than the older Raven/RNI style. Cool I view the Bastion mode more akin to Super Pursuit Mode from Knight Rider or the Tumbler Batmobile than expecting something Transformer/Robotech-esque.

So far, I'm more likely to fly the Golem just for it's looks, but not use the Bastion mode much. I'll see what fits I can come up with to improve performance.

Please fix wormhole combat sites: c1 20mil - c2 40 mil - c3 80 mil - c4 160 mil - c5 320 mil - c6 640 mil
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#4963 - 2013-10-08 04:41:05 UTC
I know I'm looking at this through a fairly narrow pve lens.

the kronos is in a strange position. void dps is amazing (1658), but with the lack of range and mobility I really have to question its applications. null dps feels underwhelming (1185 at 19.33+49.16, or if you drop a mag stab for TE you get 1130 at 19.87+51.94), rail dps is just poopy. it just breaks 1k gun dps with 4 faction damage mods, a t2 rof rig, and 5% implants. with similar set ups tach paladins are doing 1146 wtih navy multi at 72+51, and cruise golem at 1112.9 with fury missiles, effectively to lock range. okay with the golem you get some painter issues.

void seems far to extreme, any other bonus seems like it would put void way over the top. however for nearly every other situation involving the kronos: I'd feel better about the kronos if it had room for 4 sentries and backup lights. heh a Null kronos with 4 gardes would do 1371 dps, that is about the same as a pulse paladin guns only with conflag at 1353. I would assume both would be mostly effective out to 35km or so, although the kronos has superior tracking. where the paladin can swap to scorch and go for long range.

vargur dps is looking pretty bad too, and it looks even worse considering it will be nearly all falloff. it might need another damage bonus. arty dps is even poopier than the kronos. dunno what the varg needs, but I doubt it is bastion mode.

the rebalance seems all out of whack at this point. Paladin with pulse and tachs seems great (maybe too good), golem with cruise is looking good. Where the Torp golem, rail/blaster kronos, and ac/arty varg need work.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Tragedy
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4964 - 2013-10-08 05:02:17 UTC
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
I know I'm looking at this through a fairly narrow pve lens.

the kronos is in a strange position. void dps is amazing (1658), but with the lack of range and mobility I really have to question its applications. null dps feels underwhelming (1185 at 19.33+49.16, or if you drop a mag stab for TE you get 1130 at 19.87+51.94), rail dps is just poopy. it just breaks 1k gun dps with 4 faction damage mods, a t2 rof rig, and 5% implants. with similar set ups tach paladins are doing 1146 wtih navy multi at 72+51, and cruise golem at 1112.9 with fury missiles, effectively to lock range. okay with the golem you get some painter issues.

void seems far to extreme, any other bonus seems like it would put void way over the top. however for nearly every other situation involving the kronos: I'd feel better about the kronos if it had room for 4 sentries and backup lights. heh a Null kronos with 4 gardes would do 1371 dps, that is about the same as a pulse paladin guns only with conflag at 1353. I would assume both would be mostly effective out to 35km or so, although the kronos has superior tracking. where the paladin can swap to scorch and go for long range.

vargur dps is looking pretty bad too, and it looks even worse considering it will be nearly all falloff. it might need another damage bonus. arty dps is even poopier than the kronos. dunno what the varg needs, but I doubt it is bastion mode.

the rebalance seems all out of whack at this point. Paladin with pulse and tachs seems great (maybe too good), golem with cruise is looking good. Where the Torp golem, rail/blaster kronos, and ac/arty varg need work.

1200 dps at 20+50k is underwhelming? ....

From a pve perspective its still the same story, just better range and tank. I dont know what you expeted. Selectable damage type is the projectiles strength, high tracking on the hybrids, high damage and kickass range with scorch. They're not going to bump all the marauders damage up to the same numbers just for kicks. They're not the same ship.
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#4965 - 2013-10-08 05:30:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Barrogh Habalu
The Djego wrote:
It doesn't work for the golem, because it became a ultra brick with the changes(read 731 m/s, with maxed navigation skills)

Is this what passes for "ultra brick" these days? Because sure as hell it can outrun pretty much anything plated. Yes, I know that noone flies plated stuff with trimarks in PvE, but it doesn't mean your Golem is slow overall. Something with average speed, perhaps...

Josh Cox wrote:
I just spent a bit of time trying out World's Collide in a Vargur and I have to agree with the sentiment that the range bonus does hardly anything on it.

I'd also like to mention that the Vargur seems overtanked now. Bastion mode really didn't help me complete anything faster because more tank doesn't help me do stuff faster.

Again, for armor ships this tanking bonus will allow you to do stuff faster without being tinfoil-thin when it matters, but still be at the efficiency of shield setups at best.

That's pretty much the problem, different ships are treated like they absolutely have to recieve same bonuses, but of course they are more useful to one ship than to another.

Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become
Gwen Ambraelle
Last Train From Cadspugh
#4966 - 2013-10-08 05:46:14 UTC
Tested the Pally today. All I have to say about it is - awesome! Tachs or Pulses, this thing rules.

But the other ships need work.

Kronos - Either rail damage needs a buff or return it's 125 mb drone bandwith/bay - Blasters are too limiting if you are MJD'ing all over the place. Yes for closeup PvP this thing would be a monster, but for ranged missions it's just blah.

Vargur - Shield bonus is stacking penalised? Not sure that's a good thing.

Golem - I know very little about missile ships, so I've no comment.

So to the great French god of re-balancing - Good job on the Pally, don't mess with it now. Give the Kronos some punch at range.

Cheers.
Vinyl 41
AdVictis
#4967 - 2013-10-08 06:38:09 UTC
its the general problem with the new marauders that short range weapons dont work with bastion to good :/ some sort of short of buff is needed here
Debora Tsung
Perkone
Caldari State
#4968 - 2013-10-08 07:14:35 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
ok its time to remove the tractor beam bonus from the marader and replace it whith a heat bonus.



I'm sure most people would want a salvager bonus


no.

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

Fighting back is more fun than not.

Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.
Darling Hassasin
Parental Control
Didn't want that Sov anyway.
#4969 - 2013-10-08 07:27:51 UTC
Dear CCP:

Bastion is currently only a feature for lvl4 missions and solo (? at best) pvp.

If you want to see these Marauders used in high end pve and pvp there is only two options:

(a) Make Bastion invulnerable to neuting

or

(b) allow remote cap transfer in bastion.

Otherwise the only ships I foresee seeing increased usage are the Geddon / Curse and Pilgrim...

actually ....

or

(c) Rename the class from Marauder to Deadinthewater.

Thank you for reading this wake up call for CCP dudes.
Brib Vogt
Doomheim
#4970 - 2013-10-08 07:46:37 UTC
For me I have to say that using a vargur in something else than PvE is out of any question. Thats why I tested it mainly in PvE. I love doing PVP (If you check my KB, No this is my standing toon) but not with that kind of money on the table.

LvL 4:


  • Tank is extremely good with two pith b-type specific mods and a x-large shield booster
  • MJD is only partially usable, problems with some gates, mission items and some rats (More later)
  • 1 Trackingcomputer and 2 tracking enhancer completely deny usability for Bastions Fall-Off bonus due to Stacking penalty


Problems I saw here.


  1. Sometimes the time indicator vanishes and you have no idea how long Bastion is still going after you deactivated it. This is extremely annoying
  2. The Mordus Legion NPCs are completely annoying too. If you manage a close in jump to a group 90 km away they will slowboat to a 50km distance. With a fall-off stuck at 74km (Phased plasma) with or without Bastion Vargur uses only 80% of the max damage if you hit 100%. That means i do 700 DPS, which is far less then i have with my Macha on the move.


In the end you are a sitting duck, which can not increase DPS via Bouncer (I have 2 slots for drone links) and with no increase in fall-off, which leads to no increase in effective dealt damage

Angel Forsaken Hub


  • Tank is extremely good with two pith b-type specific mods and a x-large shield booster
  • MJD makes no sense, because you dictate the range you want to fight and the fly towards you.
  • 2 Tracking computer, 1 tracking enhancer and 4 gyros kill


Problems I saw here.


  1. Due to the interceptor changes and the general sitting duck phenomenon I am afraid to use the Vargur here. But in Singularity it was good
  2. Macha + 4 Bouncer outrank Vargur by far


8/10 DED site

  • What should i say. I took a Blue Pill to be on the safe side, but it did it all alone.


Problems I saw here.


  1. you can't use bastion in the earlier rooms, because you need to move to keep the time you spend inside the site at a minimum. And you don't want to be there sitting in bastion.


Incursions Hypothetically


  • Vargur stays an impossible ship for Incusrions. A Macha beats it in every perspective.
Janeway84
Insane's Asylum
#4971 - 2013-10-08 07:50:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Janeway84
Saw the new video on the kronos and golems and they look good for a starter animation in bastion mode Big smile
What would really give them the little extra would be if they had some lightning special fx going on in parts of the texture or model.
Like you got on a proteus pr domi to show where the nano bots flow Cool
Could maybe make it some new shield special Fx for the golen and vargur?
Would be nice if you could get a bit more feedback from your ship when you are going into bastion mode is all im suggesting.

I haven't tried the ships on the test server but i agree with one of the posts earlier about rail gun dps sometimes feeling a little low compared to other weapon systems.
marVLs
#4972 - 2013-10-08 08:34:52 UTC  |  Edited by: marVLs
I don't know why CCP is behaving unprofessionally...

Marauders were, are and will be used in 99% only in lvl4s. Look how peps are testing them: lvl4s... Deal with thatAttention

You take bad ships, nerf them unnecessarily in most aspects, buff sensors too little and by that You try to force some other uses for them, don't know which ones, they're in conflict with them etc.

Don't rebalance ship in way that they won't be used ffs... What's next? Logi rebalance with mining possibility bonuses?

You nerfed them all way long in every aspect that's needed in their main assumption (lvl4s, incursions etc just HS pve, don't lie to yourselfs that magicaly now everyone will be using them) because You give them totally not needed 34653735% tank bonus with totally useles stacking penalized range bonuses....


Srly You pick up bad ships end You gave us even worse...
Corbalys
Brokeback Ponies
#4973 - 2013-10-08 08:43:13 UTC
Now that marauders are stupid can we have a Tech2 battleship class made for PVE ?

More sensor strength / real T2 resists / something to not look ridiculous compared to pirate BS. (real vargur PG too).
It wasn't THAT hard to come with something for PVE lovers, why the mini dread module and the speed nerf that will make some missions more painful and bring nothing interesting ?
Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#4974 - 2013-10-08 08:51:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Mina Sebiestar
I want to thank CCP to downgrading Marauders from 2nd class to even worse ship, after all this years of them lacking at many things that was pointed out over years of usage..you completely ignored every single one of them and make them under DPS'd local tank garbage that no one wanted in the first place...

In all this years of playing and seeing posts of marauders NO ONE asked for more completely useless tank and nerfs across the board for a module that define a ship as such.....

Thank you.

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard
Rab See
Stellar Dynamics
#4975 - 2013-10-08 09:21:22 UTC
Ok - tried the vargur in bastion last night.

First, tank seems good. Can imagine having no issues in pve - pvp - neuts and I'm dead (as ever).

Fallof bonus - useless - its stacking penalised - it did nothing.

Basically I ended up with a static ship (I usually fit MWD,Aburner to get to rats) that could barely
apply damage because it was stuck - way overtanked - but maybe you need that because you are
now a sitting duck.

The whole concept is a paradox. Give you tank, let you use MJD - good for missions, only using long range weapons = crap for pvp (except maybe gatecamps). Short range weapons - its pointless fitting bastion - so you are back to square one.
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
#4976 - 2013-10-08 09:42:11 UTC
Rab See wrote:
Ok - tried the vargur in bastion last night.



... Short range weapons - its pointless fitting bastion - so you are back to square one.


not even square one, i have to say, cose of the mobility nerfs... Oops
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#4977 - 2013-10-08 09:45:40 UTC
Brib Vogt wrote:
Incursions Hypothetically


  • Vargur stays an impossible ship for Incusrions. A Macha beats it in every perspective.

Some people decided to crunch numbers and it seems that taking Vanguards is kinda sorta possible with Bastion (that was during v1.0 times, so I believe it's the same as right now), so you can take 10-11 DPS ships and no logi. Perhaps such a lolfleet could be somewhat competitive Big smile Although you being unbuffered ship with no logi support will make a better gank target than usually, so...
In other scenarios, yeah, there's no point really.

Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become
The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
#4978 - 2013-10-08 09:52:28 UTC  |  Edited by: The Djego
Tragedy wrote:
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
I know I'm looking at this through a fairly narrow pve lens.

the kronos is in a strange position. void dps is amazing (1658), but with the lack of range and mobility I really have to question its applications. null dps feels underwhelming (1185 at 19.33+49.16, or if you drop a mag stab for TE you get 1130 at 19.87+51.94), rail dps is just poopy. it just breaks 1k gun dps with 4 faction damage mods, a t2 rof rig, and 5% implants. with similar set ups tach paladins are doing 1146 wtih navy multi at 72+51, and cruise golem at 1112.9 with fury missiles, effectively to lock range. okay with the golem you get some painter issues.

void seems far to extreme, any other bonus seems like it would put void way over the top. however for nearly every other situation involving the kronos: I'd feel better about the kronos if it had room for 4 sentries and backup lights. heh a Null kronos with 4 gardes would do 1371 dps, that is about the same as a pulse paladin guns only with conflag at 1353. I would assume both would be mostly effective out to 35km or so, although the kronos has superior tracking. where the paladin can swap to scorch and go for long range.

vargur dps is looking pretty bad too, and it looks even worse considering it will be nearly all falloff. it might need another damage bonus. arty dps is even poopier than the kronos. dunno what the varg needs, but I doubt it is bastion mode.

the rebalance seems all out of whack at this point. Paladin with pulse and tachs seems great (maybe too good), golem with cruise is looking good. Where the Torp golem, rail/blaster kronos, and ac/arty varg need work.

1200 dps at 20+50k is underwhelming? ....

From a pve perspective its still the same story, just better range and tank. I dont know what you expeted. Selectable damage type is the projectiles strength, high tracking on the hybrids, high damage and kickass range with scorch. They're not going to bump all the marauders damage up to the same numbers just for kicks. They're not the same ship.


Exactly they are utterly garbage with the changes, since a Rail Kronos does nearly the same with better damage application at 47+47km. A current Rail Kronos(what is completely pointless with no sentry's after the update) today vastly outperforms the new Blaster Kronos because it is a lot more flexible with the range, actually can move around(with 280m/s higher speed on top of that), cover 18km of range(where you will have tracking issues) with a 90% web and also does 1200 dps at far more useful ranges. If you want something that burns in range and does high dps a Vindicator is far more useful than the Kronos, because it does tones more dps, got sentry's and actually a useful web stenght.

[Kronos, devs are bad at the game]
Shadow Serpentis Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Shadow Serpentis Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Shadow Serpentis Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Shadow Serpentis Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Tracking Enhancer II
True Sansha Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Core C-Type Large Armor Repairer

Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Core A-Type 100MN Microwarpdrive
Federation Navy Stasis Webifier

Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
Bastion Module I

Large Hybrid Burst Aerator II
Large Anti-Explosive Pump II


Garde II x1
Hobgoblin II x5



The Kronos had damage issues compared to the other marauders before by only having 3 sentry's to get to useful dps levels with rails, with the changes, the stop and go restrictions and the terrible speed it is just laughable bad.

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
Brib Vogt
Doomheim
#4979 - 2013-10-08 09:54:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Brib Vogt
gascanu wrote:
Rab See wrote:
Ok - tried the vargur in bastion last night.



... Short range weapons - its pointless fitting bastion - so you are back to square one.


not even square one, i have to say, cose of the mobility nerfs... Oops



True. Before the release i thought it will be like this. (In my mind the Marauders had T2 resists even out of bastion)

Vargur LVL 4.


  • Slowboat to gate
  • on the way, kill all the crap which is in your range
  • at the gate, switch on bastion and kill all the crap which is NOW in your range.


Golem Cruise


  • Slowboat to gate
  • Kill all the big stuff
  • at the gate, switch on bastion and receive explo-velocity to kill all the small crap


But you can forget both. Torp-Golem sucks in missis and is beaten by raven and CNR.



And for all the people who are crying for a PVPable Vargur... I have seen a Pirate BS how often in solo PVP? maybe 20 times in 3 years?
Johnson Oramara
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#4980 - 2013-10-08 09:55:48 UTC
Brib Vogt wrote:

  • Vargur stays an impossible ship for Incusrions. A Macha beats it in every perspective.

    • Don't worry, they'll be nerfing Macha down to this level too to make this look better. Evil