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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#4941 - 2013-10-07 23:50:46 UTC
why do they have to change the golem skin? cant they jus keep the current one? it looks better. besides all the other marauder use the same model .
Dorororo
Keroro Platoon
#4942 - 2013-10-07 23:57:24 UTC
Edora Madullier wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
Edora Madullier wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
Though I haven't used it yet, i'm not sure I like MJD bonus as we're still to slow to close the leftover distance.


There is no leftover distance if you do it right. It's pretty easy given the large "hitbox" of the Acceleration Gates. Cargo containers with mission items is another story though, I guess.


yeah, but if i'm 60km from the gate when I hit the mission, it's not very likely that without geometry that i'll hit my first jump well enough to catch the second.
And if I just to a gate 60km away, i'll miss by at least 20km.



I tried it in Worlds Collide. First MJD activation from the beacon led me to 96km from the gate, second one I was at 0. It's really not that difficult. The only real issue I can see is the time waiting for the cycle to end to then MJD to the gate and warp through it, but it can be solved by simply deactivating it when you know you'll kill the remaining NPCs in less than one minute.


Worlds Collide is pretty much the most MJD+sniping friendly mission there is. First room favors sniping. In both 2nd rooms, you land close to zero to the next gate, meaning it's trivial to MJD out of webbing/pointing frigates, snipe everything then MJD back right on top of the gate. Ditto for 3rd room.

The problem is I can already do this on TQ. I take next to no damage at range, so Bastion rep bonus is useless. Range bonus isn't a big deal, esp on Golem. I don't need to MJD more than once, so the reactivation delay bonus is also useless. Overall there is simply no real reason to MJD since it just makes stuff take longer compared to tanking everything and salvaging + tractoring at the same time.
Crazy KSK
Tsunami Cartel
#4943 - 2013-10-08 00:14:01 UTC
the marauder siege range bonus is next to useless since it is stacking penalized imho it should not be and give a flat 25% that stacks

Quote CCP Fozzie: ... The days of balance and forget are over.
Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#4944 - 2013-10-08 00:18:03 UTC
Crazy KSK wrote:
the marauder siege range bonus is next to useless since it is stacking penalized imho it should not be and give a flat 25% that stacks


i think its kinda works for torp golem since they can do 2 x flight time riggs so the missile velocity dont get penalty
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#4945 - 2013-10-08 00:34:19 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Allandri wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
Allandri wrote:
I really think the Bastion module needs another penalty besides immobility and no remote assistance. Decreased cap regen or an actual cap use to the module seems like it would balance out the positives


Are you special Ed?


Stop thinking about PvE limitations


Its all they doStraight


Why would I not think about the pve limitations in a ship designed for pve????


The idea is to not make them as dedicated pve ships.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4946 - 2013-10-08 00:42:37 UTC
Guys, in my Golem bastioned with Marauders 5, and all the awesome skills I have, I'm getting 26% of my shields boosted back while bastioned...

If that's not good enough for pvp even sitting still, then I don't know what is..
The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
#4947 - 2013-10-08 00:50:52 UTC
Mer88 wrote:
Crazy KSK wrote:
the marauder siege range bonus is next to useless since it is stacking penalized imho it should not be and give a flat 25% that stacks


i think its kinda works for torp golem since they can do 2 x flight time riggs so the missile velocity dont get penalty


It doesn't work for the golem, because it became a ultra brick with the changes(read 731 m/s, with maxed navigation skills) that is utterly useless as a mwd torp platform and I rather fly a CNR with 3 Sentry's when I want to use CMs.

My Kronos is horrible with the new changes. It became pointless with rails because of the lack of sentry dps and just bad with blasters because my navy Apoc, Vindi and Mach do the same thing a lot better. They are miles quicker on the feet(it is 828m/s fast with the changes, and this is with speed imps, the mach is nearly twice as fast), the navy Apoc owns it full stop at dps projection(lol falloff) and the Vindicator is overall just so much better(more turret dps, a lot faster, got a proper web and actually can utilize sentry's on top of that). If the aim was to produce completely useless pve ships that are only handy for people that are to stupid to learn triggers, move the ship around or utilize logis for plexes/wh then good job, mission archived. Btw with the current 1 minute extra aggro timer, they are even useless in the only niche they would be good at(station games in high sec).

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
Johnson Oramara
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#4948 - 2013-10-08 01:06:10 UTC
Umm... i was going to start testing the marauders on the test servers but.... WHAT THE PLATYPUS HAPPENED TO MY GOLEM?!

That just... looks flat simplified thing... not something that would be intiminating worth the months it takes to train skills and the billion isk price tag...

I'm disappointed, even before i even got to fly the thing.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4949 - 2013-10-08 01:15:25 UTC
Johnson Oramara wrote:
Umm... i was going to start testing the marauders on the test servers but.... WHAT THE PLATYPUS HAPPENED TO MY GOLEM?!

That just... looks flat simplified thing... not something that would be intiminating worth the months it takes to train skills and the billion isk price tag...

I'm disappointed, even before i even got to fly the thing.


the transformation is even worse
Rikimaru Ichikawa
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#4950 - 2013-10-08 01:17:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Rikimaru Ichikawa
Mer88 wrote:
why do they have to change the golem skin? cant they jus keep the current one? it looks better. besides all the other marauder use the same model .


I read somewhere that they wanted just to squeeze it on for testing, but the art is not updated for the texture packs yet, so it's not how it will look in its finished form.

Now off to test the Paladin... What? after the 654mb update to the Sisi client that is...Cry
Wyndeigo
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#4951 - 2013-10-08 02:00:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Wyndeigo
new Golem is absolutely horrible looking.

It could have worked if you kept the main hull the same and just added the new wing design.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4952 - 2013-10-08 02:02:52 UTC
Wyndeigo wrote:
new Golem is absolutely horrible looking.

It could have worked if you kept the main hull the same and just added the new wing design.



I don't really care for or against the new hull, I just hate the bastion transformation...

Seriously, WTF was the art department working on?
Is it all in game?
Cause it's pathetic.
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#4953 - 2013-10-08 02:04:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Vimsy Vortis
Web bonuses back please. I'd like to be able to hit the things orbiting me while I am stuck totally stationary.

Also why is the paladin lumbered with a cap bonus when everything else is getting an additional gun bonus. I thought we had figured out the laser cap bonus thing at this point.
Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#4954 - 2013-10-08 02:09:30 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
Wyndeigo wrote:
new Golem is absolutely horrible looking.

It could have worked if you kept the main hull the same and just added the new wing design.



I don't really care for or against the new hull, I just hate the bastion transformation...

Seriously, WTF was the art department working on?
Is it all in game?
Cause it's pathetic.


hmm I think the hull(golem) looks ugly but the transformation looks cool. Kronos looks amazing in both
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4955 - 2013-10-08 02:13:52 UTC
Mer88 wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
Wyndeigo wrote:
new Golem is absolutely horrible looking.

It could have worked if you kept the main hull the same and just added the new wing design.



I don't really care for or against the new hull, I just hate the bastion transformation...

Seriously, WTF was the art department working on?
Is it all in game?
Cause it's pathetic.


hmm I think the hull(golem) looks ugly but the transformation looks cool. Kronos looks amazing in both


I think the Golem transformation is relatively pathetic...
It's like air brakes on a jet.... they don't even stand out that well unless you're looking at the front of the ship.
Josh Cox
FC Build 'n Trade
#4956 - 2013-10-08 02:33:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Josh Cox
I just spent a bit of time trying out World's Collide in a Vargur and I have to agree with the sentiment that the range bonus does hardly anything on it.

I'd also like to mention that the Vargur seems overtanked now. Bastion mode really didn't help me complete anything faster because more tank doesn't help me do stuff faster.

Honestly, after my short trial with it, this is what I say should be done (that I think will make all the ships more useful, not just the Vargur):

1) Remove the 7.5% active tank bonus from the hull and institute a damage bonus (direct damage bonus for ships that get range/tracking on the hull currently, and ROF for ships that already have a direct damage bonus). This damage bonus would probably be fine at 3% (or maybe 4%, but that may be pushing it) per level, instead of the usual 5% per level. This would actually allow for slightly faster completion time of missions/anoms/plexes/whatever instead of just being able to tank damage that people could already tank well to begin with.

2) Remove the 30% resist increase across the board from Bastion and move it to a resist increase on Maraurder hulls. I did a a little experiment: made a custom Vargur ship fitting in EveHQ based on the proposal #2 T2 resist profile and new shield/armor/hull number and then fit the Vargur on SiSi just now with the same tank modules (which were 2x Adaptive Invulnerability Fields II, Thermal Ward Amplifier II, DCU II and Large Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II) and the T2 EHP (in EveHQ) was actually about 4k lower than my Eve EHP with Bastion active, so I think it would balance out. This would allow the ship to still rock a solid local tank for solo work while also allowing for a reasonable ship to work without the Bastion module for fleet (PvP or Incursions, if blinged out) activity where it depends on remote reps.

3) Make all Bastion bonuses non-stacking so the effects of the module can be realised in practice. For me using autocannons (I never gave artillery a shot tonight), there was barely a range increase at all.

Just my two cents, if anyone wants screenshots from my test I'll provide them. If you think my tank fit for the Vargur was ****, let me know, but I felt like it was alright (with raising resistances across board and filling the holes).

I do think that Bastion is a really cool idea and MJD'ing around with artillery will be insane fun. I just think it needs to be tweaked a bit. A damage bonus on the module itself would be fun and really make people want to use it, but I think it would be OP with the suggestions above.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4957 - 2013-10-08 03:04:15 UTC
Josh Cox wrote:
I just spent a bit of time trying out World's Collide in a Vargur and I have to agree with the sentiment that the range bonus does hardly anything on it.

I'd also like to mention that the Vargur seems overtanked now. Bastion mode really didn't help me complete anything faster because more tank doesn't help me do stuff faster.

Honestly, after my short trial with it, this is what I say should be done (that I think will make all the ships more useful, not just the Vargur):

1) Remove the 7.5% active tank bonus from the hull and institute a damage bonus (direct damage bonus for ships that get range/tracking on the hull currently, and ROF for ships that already have a direct damage bonus). This damage bonus would probably be fine at 3% (or maybe 4%, but that may be pushing it) per level, instead of the usual 5% per level. This would actually allow for slightly faster completion time of missions/anoms/plexes/whatever instead of just being able to tank damage that people could already tank well to begin with.

2) Remove the 30% resist increase across the board from Bastion and move it to a resist increase on Maraurder hulls. I did a a little experiment: made a custom Vargur ship fitting in EveHQ based on the proposal #2 T2 resist profile and new shield/armor/hull number and then fit the Vargur on SiSi just now with the same tank modules (which were 2x Adaptive Invulnerability Fields II, Thermal Ward Amplifier II, DCU II and Large Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II) and the T2 EHP (in EveHQ) was actually about 4k lower than my Eve EHP with Bastion active, so I think it would balance out. This would allow the ship to still rock a solid local tank for solo work while also allowing for a reasonable ship to work without the Bastion module for fleet (PvP or Incursions, if blinged out) activity where it depends on remote reps.

3) Make all Bastion bonuses non-stacking so the effects of the module can be realised in practice. For me using autocannons (I never gave artillery a shot tonight), there was barely a range increase at all.

Just my two cents, if anyone wants screenshots from my test I'll provide them. If you think my tank fit for the Vargur was ****, let me know, but I felt like it was alright (with raising resistances across board and filling the holes).

I do think that Bastion is a really cool idea and MJD'ing around with artillery will be insane fun. I just think it needs to be tweaked a bit. A damage bonus on the module itself would be fun and really make people want to use it, but I think it would be OP with the suggestions above.


Non-stacking range bonus would be nice for torps, but with cruise missiles it would probably put me over 25km.
Right now with bastion I'm getting 208 with fury...
It will be nice for POS bashing, but ultimately with the tank and ewar immunity, I don't need that much range with cruise.

I really enjoy the tank that bastion provides, I think it's gonna make bastion a lot more pve friendly than people realize.
It's almost it's own logistics.
It's going to make them shine in everything but fleet pve.

That said, the only thing I'm really disappointed with is the transformations.
I was hoping for something a bit more goddie
Vorseger
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#4958 - 2013-10-08 03:11:35 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
Josh Cox wrote:
I just spent a bit of time trying out World's Collide in a Vargur and I have to agree with the sentiment that the range bonus does hardly anything on it.

I'd also like to mention that the Vargur seems overtanked now. Bastion mode really didn't help me complete anything faster because more tank doesn't help me do stuff faster.

Honestly, after my short trial with it, this is what I say should be done (that I think will make all the ships more useful, not just the Vargur):

1) Remove the 7.5% active tank bonus from the hull and institute a damage bonus (direct damage bonus for ships that get range/tracking on the hull currently, and ROF for ships that already have a direct damage bonus). This damage bonus would probably be fine at 3% (or maybe 4%, but that may be pushing it) per level, instead of the usual 5% per level. This would actually allow for slightly faster completion time of missions/anoms/plexes/whatever instead of just being able to tank damage that people could already tank well to begin with.

2) Remove the 30% resist increase across the board from Bastion and move it to a resist increase on Maraurder hulls. I did a a little experiment: made a custom Vargur ship fitting in EveHQ based on the proposal #2 T2 resist profile and new shield/armor/hull number and then fit the Vargur on SiSi just now with the same tank modules (which were 2x Adaptive Invulnerability Fields II, Thermal Ward Amplifier II, DCU II and Large Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II) and the T2 EHP (in EveHQ) was actually about 4k lower than my Eve EHP with Bastion active, so I think it would balance out. This would allow the ship to still rock a solid local tank for solo work while also allowing for a reasonable ship to work without the Bastion module for fleet (PvP or Incursions, if blinged out) activity where it depends on remote reps.

3) Make all Bastion bonuses non-stacking so the effects of the module can be realised in practice. For me using autocannons (I never gave artillery a shot tonight), there was barely a range increase at all.

Just my two cents, if anyone wants screenshots from my test I'll provide them. If you think my tank fit for the Vargur was ****, let me know, but I felt like it was alright (with raising resistances across board and filling the holes).

I do think that Bastion is a really cool idea and MJD'ing around with artillery will be insane fun. I just think it needs to be tweaked a bit. A damage bonus on the module itself would be fun and really make people want to use it, but I think it would be OP with the suggestions above.


Non-stacking range bonus would be nice for torps, but with cruise missiles it would probably put me over 25km.
Right now with bastion I'm getting 208 with fury...
It will be nice for POS bashing, but ultimately with the tank and ewar immunity, I don't need that much range with cruise.

I really enjoy the tank that bastion provides, I think it's gonna make bastion a lot more pve friendly than people realize.
It's almost it's own logistics.
It's going to make them shine in everything but fleet pve.

That said, the only thing I'm really disappointed with is the transformations.
I was hoping for something a bit more goddie


Just fly a Vargur and see how little a range increase you get. Not sure how to fix the balance amongst all of weapon options, but I would like to see something that gives a significant increase if they want to get me to even consider using a micro-jump drive.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4959 - 2013-10-08 03:34:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Joe Risalo
Vorseger wrote:


Just fly a Vargur and see how little a range increase you get. Not sure how to fix the balance amongst all of weapon options, but I would like to see something that gives a significant increase if they want to get me to even consider using a micro-jump drive.


Personally, instead of making bastion a one size fits all, they should build the hulls to be an individual ship without bastion considered and then come back and build bastion so that it modifies the ship and all its bonuses.

This way, instead of having nerfed ships and a module that effects them all equally.
You would have viable individual ships that when fitted with bastion essentially becomes a different ship, with bonuses built specifically for that hull.

This would make CCPs ultimate goal of allowing bastion on other ships much simpler, and would allow them to customize bastion to the ship, and give it individual design of its own.

Basically, a t3 module if you will.

P.S.
Golem need more pg and CPU.
It can't even build a proper torp fit without losing a lot of something
Rikimaru Ichikawa
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#4960 - 2013-10-08 04:01:13 UTC
Josh Cox wrote:
I just spent a bit of time trying out World's Collide in a Vargur and I have to agree with the sentiment that the range bonus does hardly anything on it.

I'd also like to mention that the Vargur seems overtanked now. Bastion mode really didn't help me complete anything faster because more tank doesn't help me do stuff faster.

Honestly, after my short trial with it, this is what I say should be done (that I think will make all the ships more useful, not just the Vargur):

1) Remove the 7.5% active tank bonus from the hull and institute a damage bonus (direct damage bonus for ships that get range/tracking on the hull currently, and ROF for ships that already have a direct damage bonus). This damage bonus would probably be fine at 3% (or maybe 4%, but that may be pushing it) per level, instead of the usual 5% per level. This would actually allow for slightly faster completion time of missions/anoms/plexes/whatever instead of just being able to tank damage that people could already tank well to begin with.

2) Remove the 30% resist increase across the board from Bastion and move it to a resist increase on Maraurder hulls. I did a a little experiment: made a custom Vargur ship fitting in EveHQ based on the proposal #2 T2 resist profile and new shield/armor/hull number and then fit the Vargur on SiSi just now with the same tank modules (which were 2x Adaptive Invulnerability Fields II, Thermal Ward Amplifier II, DCU II and Large Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II) and the T2 EHP (in EveHQ) was actually about 4k lower than my Eve EHP with Bastion active, so I think it would balance out. This would allow the ship to still rock a solid local tank for solo work while also allowing for a reasonable ship to work without the Bastion module for fleet (PvP or Incursions, if blinged out) activity where it depends on remote reps.

3) Make all Bastion bonuses non-stacking so the effects of the module can be realised in practice. For me using autocannons (I never gave artillery a shot tonight), there was barely a range increase at all.

Just my two cents, if anyone wants screenshots from my test I'll provide them. If you think my tank fit for the Vargur was ****, let me know, but I felt like it was alright (with raising resistances across board and filling the holes).

I do think that Bastion is a really cool idea and MJD'ing around with artillery will be insane fun. I just think it needs to be tweaked a bit. A damage bonus on the module itself would be fun and really make people want to use it, but I think it would be OP with the suggestions above.


I'll check out the Paladin and post the stats for those interested in the next few hours if my ISP traffic permits Ugh It's a little bit strained atm. Cry