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Dev Blog: Player Owned Customs offices in Hi-Sec

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ButtFungus
SOONWAFFE
#461 - 2013-10-06 15:01:38 UTC
I fail to see why people are raging about Major Nullsec powers getting rich off of the new POCO system. Casual players are pumping money into Goon and others' walets every day anyway. All that moon goo you buy to make T2 ships/drones/ammo/mods goes right into Nullsec wallets. And how about the Zydrine and Megacyte you buy to make the T1 items you sell? Losec and Wormholes account for some, but most of it comes from Nullsec corps renting space from the Nullsec power blocks. Buy an Exhumer or T2 crystals for your mining ships? Then you are giving isk to Nullsec. Even those T2 mining foreman links you put on your Ocra make Nullsec powers richer. The amount of isk they would make off of the POCOs would barely be worth the man-hours needed to do the accounting and would pale in comparison to the isk they already make off of you. Be afraid of Losec gangs who want Hisec PI to disappear so their PI materials are worth more. Be afraid of Mercs and Griefers charging a straight monthly fee for 0% tax access to their POCOS and wardeccing anyone caught launching from a controlled planet. Even be afraid or your fellow Hisec small corps. A corp of 10-15 actual Players would be able to defend their POCOs against any one-player-multitoon corp (and face it, you wouldn't wardec them anyway). Don't be afraid of giving a few million to an alliance that counts their daily income in Billions.
Kropotkin
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#462 - 2013-10-06 15:05:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Kropotkin
ButtFungus wrote:
I fail to see why people are raging about Major Nullsec powers getting rich off of the new POCO system..

This is silly. Strawman. Payoff for Goons in particular from new POCO system will be in griefing, not in ISK.
Chromartix
Doomheim
#463 - 2013-10-06 20:48:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Chromartix
CCP Paradox wrote:
Panhead4411 wrote:
So does this mean that in order to take down any current HS POCO's, we'll be tanking our standing with Interbus?


No standing/security or suspect flag hit will happen.


But you will flag and lose sec when attacking POCO's in HS once they are set up, correct? If so, will this sec penalty be worse than attacking POCOs in lowsec?
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#464 - 2013-10-06 20:53:33 UTC
DeAira Skord wrote:
I see a loss of income for CCP.

Right now, PI is a way for noobs to make a little bit of income in hisec.

I started 3 alts to do PI, so I bought PLEX for dual training and for startup costs. Due to razor thin margins, any tax increases will cause it to become unprofitable in hisec; noobs won't consider starting these alts.

That will have more of an effect than the pitiful income stream does now.



Why don't you take the alts into low, null or wormholes in the first place?


.
Vladok Harkonnen
Erinyes LLC
#465 - 2013-10-07 02:05:30 UTC
Why not just allow the owner of the player built customs office to receive the same tax rate as the NPC office used to collect? Allowing the player to raise extra taxes from the new station in High Sec just allows PI to be shut down as a casual activity in high sec. Larger corps can now take over offices and max out the tax rate to control yet another aspect of Eve, leaving the smaller corps and individual corps one less activity. Not that PI was incredibly exciting or anything, but it was an aspect of the game. Eve should introduce adjustments to the game to make the game more intro player friendly, not another change like this that allows the bigger already established corps to strengthen their positions. Leave high sec to the noobs like me.
Mocam
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#466 - 2013-10-07 04:50:16 UTC
Vladok Harkonnen wrote:
Why not just allow the owner of the player built customs office to receive the same tax rate as the NPC office used to collect? Allowing the player to raise extra taxes from the new station in High Sec just allows PI to be shut down as a casual activity in high sec. Larger corps can now take over offices and max out the tax rate to control yet another aspect of Eve, leaving the smaller corps and individual corps one less activity. Not that PI was incredibly exciting or anything, but it was an aspect of the game. Eve should introduce adjustments to the game to make the game more intro player friendly, not another change like this that allows the bigger already established corps to strengthen their positions. Leave high sec to the noobs like me.


Would it actually shut down PI? I mean is the margin so slim that jettisoning the cargo will eat the profits or not?

If null wants to grief but all it will do is trim profits slightly, that won't be worth it to them. If they can force others into stopping activities - that is worth it to them.

So if the margins are fairly trivial between using a poco or not (jetison results) - then they have no real leverage but would gain income if they owned them.

I don't know how tight such margins are for highsec PI.
CCP Paradox
#467 - 2013-10-07 14:27:51 UTC
CCP Paradox wrote:
im mrmessy wrote:
Are nullsec POCOs affected by the wardec ownership transfer lockout?


Right now, yes. You can transfer between corporations in the same Alliance, but I have expressed to SoniClover the instances of system handovers or alliance-to-alliance transfers.


Just wanted to mention now, that Null-Sec transfers for POCOs will remain unaffected to the WarDec transfer ownerships restrictions in High-Sec space.

CCP Paradox | EVE QA | Team Phenomenon

Space Magician
Kropotkin
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#468 - 2013-10-07 15:11:17 UTC
Mocam wrote:
I don't know how tight such margins are for highsec PI.

Here's an example:

Commodity value, based on Jita want-to-buy price: 6572
Launch cost: 1570
Digger Dan
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#469 - 2013-10-08 03:03:40 UTC
Up-topic I talked about my wanting to do a little PI for make-to-use manufacturing.

Upon further reflection, I think I'll be ok under the New Regime. I may have to ninja-plant and -harvest stations for key raw materials -- particularly Silicon -- and I may have to play nomad with my production factories, but I find the argument convincing, that cartel competition should make the production-factory-nomad life possible, if perhaps more laborious than I might prefer.

If it gets too bad, I can start a Movement to try to get CCP to add Smuggler Landing Containers.

On the up-side, I can hope that the Siphons, combined with wormhole access to lowsec and nullsec -- evading the standing gate-camps -- will let me steal the small amounts of MoonGooStuff I need, rather than have to buy.

Still need to prove the feasibility of using wormhole access to ninja-mine for Megacyte and Morphite.

I hope I won't have to go back to grinding Mining Missions for ISK -- grinding them for standing for access to jump-clones was Not Fun -- but it could very well be tolerable even if I have to buy my Morphite from the Powers of Oppression.Ugh

And who knows? Maybe some day I'll be able to support myself building ships. So far, as soon as I've ground out enough ISK for BPOs that look like they'll support profitable production, the Fickle Finger of Fleet Composition Fads has gone and trashed the profitability of the ships I was set to build. Guess I must be DOINGITWRONG.

Anyway, thanks to all who commented insightfully (if often heatedly) on this interesting topic!
Rena'Thras
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#470 - 2013-10-08 07:34:34 UTC
Well, I read the first 9 pages. I got here from the Dev blog I saw on the launcher.

As you can tell (or not, is there a post counter?) I tend not to post on these forums. I tend to just play the game. And I like the game. I like industry, production, exploration, cloaky stuff, experimenting with different things, and playing with my small group of buddies.

We all got into PI about a month and a half ago after I did some research and figured out how we could basically make our own POS fuel. This may seem like common knowledge to all of you, but...maybe it's not really, I dunno. Anyway, I mine the ice (because I actually enjoy mining space rocks), we all PI on a set of planets, pull the resources of 4 or so players, and we got a POS to call our own to play with and try to learn something about manufacturing and research (since the NPC stations basically are clogged with jobs 24/7.)

What it sounds like from reading the first 9 pages, and the Dev blog, is that this fun little experiment may be coming to an end. That it ma be where we can't generate PI well enough to really do anything, or will have to deal with huge cutthroat corps far far away setting high tax rates.

As it is, HiSec PI doesn't really make us any money (it's "free", but slow and nothing really sells for much), but it lets us make our own POS fuel so we can stock up and don't have to worry about the market TOO much (for POS fuel - obviously, we're using it for all of our other needs and to sell the things that we're toying with making.) So it's not really worth the time, but at least we can be self-sufficient at minimal loss/no loss.

This idea seems to change that.

And if it does, not only will it take PI out of the hands of small corp players/new players (since it will then be operating at a loss or VERY marginal gain), but it will, in that one fell swoop, also take POSes away from those players, and with it manufacturing and research.

Has this change really been well thought through? It doesn't seem like it...

I mean, I like running Logi in Incursions and all, but I don't like HAVING to make money to buy things - I LIKE setting up supply chains and making things, and using the money for other fun things. :)

Please don't make this game suck, CCP! I like being able to pew pew space rocks and healbot my friends and play with all these fun little systems you've made for us. Don't take that away, please. : ( This is the only bloody sandbox game around, all the others tell you how to play and insist you do it their way. Eve so far allows a lot of choice. This sort of change...seems to take that away.

And for people thinking that small time industrial or "family and friends" corps are swimming in money and can hire a PvP protectorate corp...are you really that clueless? XD
Alta Vista
Space Phoenicians
#471 - 2013-10-08 08:21:53 UTC
Rena'Thras wrote:
Well, I read the first 9 pages. I got here from the Dev blog I saw on the launcher.

As you can tell (or not, is there a post counter?) I tend not to post on these forums. I tend to just play the game. And I like the game. I like industry, production, exploration, cloaky stuff, experimenting with different things, and playing with my small group of buddies.

We all got into PI about a month and a half ago after I did some research and figured out how we could basically make our own POS fuel. This may seem like common knowledge to all of you, but...maybe it's not really, I dunno. Anyway, I mine the ice (because I actually enjoy mining space rocks), we all PI on a set of planets, pull the resources of 4 or so players, and we got a POS to call our own to play with and try to learn something about manufacturing and research (since the NPC stations basically are clogged with jobs 24/7.)

What it sounds like from reading the first 9 pages, and the Dev blog, is that this fun little experiment may be coming to an end. That it ma be where we can't generate PI well enough to really do anything, or will have to deal with huge cutthroat corps far far away setting high tax rates.

As it is, HiSec PI doesn't really make us any money (it's "free", but slow and nothing really sells for much), but it lets us make our own POS fuel so we can stock up and don't have to worry about the market TOO much (for POS fuel - obviously, we're using it for all of our other needs and to sell the things that we're toying with making.) So it's not really worth the time, but at least we can be self-sufficient at minimal loss/no loss.

This idea seems to change that.

And if it does, not only will it take PI out of the hands of small corp players/new players (since it will then be operating at a loss or VERY marginal gain), but it will, in that one fell swoop, also take POSes away from those players, and with it manufacturing and research.

Has this change really been well thought through? It doesn't seem like it...

I mean, I like running Logi in Incursions and all, but I don't like HAVING to make money to buy things - I LIKE setting up supply chains and making things, and using the money for other fun things. :)

Please don't make this game suck, CCP! I like being able to pew pew space rocks and healbot my friends and play with all these fun little systems you've made for us. Don't take that away, please. : ( This is the only bloody sandbox game around, all the others tell you how to play and insist you do it their way. Eve so far allows a lot of choice. This sort of change...seems to take that away.

And for people thinking that small time industrial or "family and friends" corps are swimming in money and can hire a PvP protectorate corp...are you really that clueless? XD



I think exactly like Rena'Thras.

Let us play as we want and do not not try to make us all warriors.

+1 with his post
Rakasa Yukikase
State War Academy
Caldari State
#472 - 2013-10-08 09:02:57 UTC
I agree with Rena'Thras, but there is a problem:

Although the planned change doesn´t enrich the game, it generates passive income for the big alliances and it is against high sec people - and so it will come.
mrs Dibbler
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#473 - 2013-10-08 11:39:33 UTC
Making houses out of mobile homes ???
Hmmm ...
As the ol' capt. Beefhart once said:
"my ship is my only house until it explodes" ..

Just kiddin' though.
I didn't think I would say this so short after you nerfed the vaga out of existence, but it really looks promising and even inspiring ...
What I missed however was any reference to the HD graphics you mentioned at the fanfest and still there's no talk about formation fight and flight ...

Long time ago we were promised a landscape but all we got were these low-res wallpapers covering the regions so now, with all these mobile homes floating around - hope they have firework graphics when they pop :), wouldn't it be time to live up to this promise by projecting the nebulae on the constellations instead of the regions ..

Fly Safe
You All
Alta Vista
Space Phoenicians
#474 - 2013-10-08 12:24:14 UTC
Rakasa Yukikase wrote:
I agree with Rena'Thras, but there is a problem:

Although the planned change doesn´t enrich the game, it generates passive income for the big alliances and it is against high sec people - and so it will come.


The CSM is mainly composed of players from major alliances and has nothing to do with high sec.

The CCP judgment is distorted by the CSM which does not represent all Eve players so...
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#475 - 2013-10-08 14:39:18 UTC
You guys are depressing

.
Kropotkin
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#476 - 2013-10-08 19:11:18 UTC
Roime wrote:
You guys are depressing

Of course! It is better to give than to receive! Big smile
Coffee Rocks
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#477 - 2013-10-08 19:30:04 UTC
My 2 cents:

I love this idea as it is a great conflict driver for HS, with the following recommendation:

1) Reduce the Concord Tax rate on a Player Owned CO to something like 6% (skills further reduce it to 1% + Corp tax rate). My reasoning? Well, if I can get 5% tax from a Concord HS CO with skills, why would I do PI on a POCO that levies additional tax rates?

A lot of people here are making the assumption that ALL the HS Custom Offices will be taken over. Frankly, I don't see the cost-benefit to doing that when we can easily set up a WH or LS POCO and get a higher rate of return on the more bountiful resources. Once the initial novelty wears off (which will be quick) and people realize that fighting over them is just an ISK sink, they'll stop, leaving plenty of Concord CO's to be untouched (probably forever).

A reduced NPC tax rate would make the decision easier though. 5% for straight Concord owned, or 1% + Corp tax (set to something like 2-4%)? We'd fight over them, then.

As far as my view on "it helps the Null Empires while strangling the small Corp" argument? No, I don't see that anytime soon. Even if Goons did an event to take swaths of them to strangle the market, good luck with that. That's a lot of structure shoots, and even the most braindead Goon can only take that so much. And again, why would Null leadership want to waste that much time and ISK on HS POCOs?

Besides, how are Null Empires going to control their security? You see fleets forming up to travel 50 jumps through HS for a POCO? Hell, I've seen very profitable moon POS's go down if the bridge is too long.

You never fly alone - Broadcast 4 Reps | Twitter: @thecoffeerocks | Steam: CoffeeRocks
Fabious Byel
Crimson Landser
#478 - 2013-10-09 03:09:26 UTC
The whole point of the exercise that seems to be missed is not so much the economics but the fact that once more "High Sec " is being turned into a war zone. Its not the Null sec big box alliances that has the small or one man corps worried. Its the collections of vindictive sociopaths, that will use any excuse, to do over hard working small corps. Small corps that are just interested in providing their little piece of the economy. To the crazies the cost of ownership means nothing compared to pew pew time. Like someone said above certain types of worlds will be targeted that will force the issue to pay up or walk away. That will have a ripple effect on the overall economy. It will deny small and beginner corps certain avenues and it will just encourage more fighting in "High Sec" as if the carnage already going on in "high security space" wasn't enough already.

Someone once said "If it ain't broke don't fix it." This seems to be one of those situations.

If CCP wants high sec players to form larger corps or power blocks then new characters should spawn into player corps that want or will take them till they walk away and not into NPC Corps.
Caesar Rae
Perkone
Caldari State
#479 - 2013-10-09 07:06:46 UTC
This may have been asked before, and you can paste the reply here if need be, as Player Owned Stations require empire standings to anchor, will that also apply to Player Owned Customs Offices?

AttentionAlso, in the introduction to Rubicon, there are new Player Owned Structures being developed, will those also require standings?

QuestionIf not , what will become of the standings metric?

ArrowAnd what about the pilots that gained these standings (usually 5.0+), are we just S.O.L.?

Thank you for your time.
Liastr
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#480 - 2013-10-09 14:03:00 UTC
This is a terrible idea. CCP, you're all but handing every other hisec POCO directly to Goonswarm. I get it, that's the point, you're trying to draw more conflict into hisec, make POCO ownership an attractive passive isk generator for large blocs. There are so many problems with this I'm not sure where to begin. Thankfully others seem to be covering it.

I reiterate; This is a terrible implementation. It dead set looks like you've custom built it to make it easy for the blobs to game it and shut down/grief an entire industry in hisec. I'm all for more conflict drivers in hisec and more dynamic, player-driven elements in the economy, but this really is stupid.