These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
#4841 - 2013-10-06 14:05:52 UTC
Ganthrithor wrote:
Daishan Auergni wrote:
Lol. Pages and pages of whinging when really, the ONLY thing that will change CCP's mind is what kind of usage the Marauder class will see post-Rubicon.

Every post asking for more damage or more mobility or more of anything is going to be ignored for now. Believe that.

Instead, THINK of ways to use these ships with the proposed changes / stats, you know, get ahead of the curve here instead of waiting to get plowed over with your little post-its scribbled over with complete revamped stats on popsicle sticks clutched tween your forefinger and thumb. You can wave it all you want, but the plow driver ain't gonna see it.

If the changes are so god-awfully bad as all you whingers believe them to be, no one will use these ships and CCP will have effectively forced people out of Marauder hulls. Then we'll see the prices in Jita fall through the floor... which might then lead people to buy them and use them for 500-million when they wouldn't for a billion. But if they're even unattractive as 500-million isk hulls, THEN CCP might backtrack and buff them.

But the Bastion module mechanic, the tanking buff and mobility nerf is here to stay. So shut up about that already. Seriously.

When these show up on SiSi tomorrow, TRY them. I plan to.

I can see them being useful in certain lvl 4's, some vanguards. How many people fly billion isk hulls in PvP anyway? Even if they were clearly OP, how frequent an occurrence would that be?

So maybe you should see what the meta adjustment is in the larger game, see what Jita prices settle at and then figure out if they can be of use to you. THEN.

--

Dear CCP, thanks for shaking up the game. If only to combat boredom.


Get out, fanboy. They'll never be cheap because nobody's going to produce them and sell them at a loss due to "lack of demand." The component and research costs for constructing them will always keep prices at a ground floor. You just won't see many people using them or producing them-- just like we used to see with blackops BS.


He does have a point, though; CCP has had an ample amount of suggestions from many of us concerning both proposed bastion ideas, but (as always) have shown that they either can't decide on them or don't care. All we can really do now is either try them out on Sisi. If they work out okay, great. If not, then so be it; sell them, don't by them, and move on.

"Tomahawks?"

"----in' A, right?"

"Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each."

"----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4842 - 2013-10-06 14:27:56 UTC
Sobaan Tali wrote:
Ganthrithor wrote:
Daishan Auergni wrote:
Lol. Pages and pages of whinging when really, the ONLY thing that will change CCP's mind is what kind of usage the Marauder class will see post-Rubicon.

Every post asking for more damage or more mobility or more of anything is going to be ignored for now. Believe that.

Instead, THINK of ways to use these ships with the proposed changes / stats, you know, get ahead of the curve here instead of waiting to get plowed over with your little post-its scribbled over with complete revamped stats on popsicle sticks clutched tween your forefinger and thumb. You can wave it all you want, but the plow driver ain't gonna see it.

If the changes are so god-awfully bad as all you whingers believe them to be, no one will use these ships and CCP will have effectively forced people out of Marauder hulls. Then we'll see the prices in Jita fall through the floor... which might then lead people to buy them and use them for 500-million when they wouldn't for a billion. But if they're even unattractive as 500-million isk hulls, THEN CCP might backtrack and buff them.

But the Bastion module mechanic, the tanking buff and mobility nerf is here to stay. So shut up about that already. Seriously.

When these show up on SiSi tomorrow, TRY them. I plan to.

I can see them being useful in certain lvl 4's, some vanguards. How many people fly billion isk hulls in PvP anyway? Even if they were clearly OP, how frequent an occurrence would that be?

So maybe you should see what the meta adjustment is in the larger game, see what Jita prices settle at and then figure out if they can be of use to you. THEN.

--

Dear CCP, thanks for shaking up the game. If only to combat boredom.


Get out, fanboy. They'll never be cheap because nobody's going to produce them and sell them at a loss due to "lack of demand." The component and research costs for constructing them will always keep prices at a ground floor. You just won't see many people using them or producing them-- just like we used to see with blackops BS.


He does have a point, though; CCP has had an ample amount of suggestions from many of us concerning both proposed bastion ideas, but (as always) have shown that they either can't decide on them or don't care. All we can really do now is either try them out on Sisi. If they work out okay, great. If not, then so be it; sell them, don't by them, and move on.


My fear is that testing is going to show iteration 1 is somewhat lacking, and instead of fixing it, they're going to revert to iteration 2, which is just way worse in any situation.
Less tank in and out of bastion in exchange for webs?

If iteration 1 doesn't work like they want it to, then they need to come up with something else and completely ignore iteration 2
Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
#4843 - 2013-10-06 14:43:14 UTC
Fingers crossed they don't even consider iteration 2 (although the web bonus on the Kronos is fine, but on a Golem?). Either way, I will run some tests myself on Sisi. If iteration 1 doesn't pan out for me or they do switch back to iteration 2, I have been using a CNR for the last couple of weeks and I'll stick with that. I imagine many have already come up with similar contingency plans themselves.

Hopefully they won't murder pirate BS's too badly, but I have doubts that people will be happy with them in the end. Maybe I'm wrong, we'll see...

"Tomahawks?"

"----in' A, right?"

"Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each."

"----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4844 - 2013-10-06 14:47:04 UTC
Sobaan Tali wrote:
Fingers crossed they don't even consider iteration 2 (although the web bonus on the Kronos is fine, but on a Golem?). Either way, I will run some tests myself on Sisi. If iteration 1 doesn't pan out for me or they do switch back to iteration 2, I have been using a CNR for the last couple of weeks and I'll stick with that. I imagine many have already come up with similar contingency plans themselves.

Hopefully they won't murder pirate BS's too badly, but I have doubts that people will be happy with them in the end. Maybe I'm wrong, we'll see...


yeah, web bonus might be nice on a couple of the ships, but is it worth the loss of 30% omni-resists and 37.5% rep boost?
Even when you add t2 resists it still isn't worth this amount of tank loss.
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#4845 - 2013-10-06 15:38:16 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
Sobaan Tali wrote:
Fingers crossed they don't even consider iteration 2 (although the web bonus on the Kronos is fine, but on a Golem?). Either way, I will run some tests myself on Sisi. If iteration 1 doesn't pan out for me or they do switch back to iteration 2, I have been using a CNR for the last couple of weeks and I'll stick with that. I imagine many have already come up with similar contingency plans themselves.

Hopefully they won't murder pirate BS's too badly, but I have doubts that people will be happy with them in the end. Maybe I'm wrong, we'll see...


yeah, web bonus might be nice on a couple of the ships, but is it worth the loss of 30% omni-resists and 37.5% rep boost?
Even when you add t2 resists it still isn't worth this amount of tank loss.


The T2 resists version far superior for wormhole PvE, it gave sufficient resists to tank sites out of bastion (T2 resists are far superior to a 37.5% repair bonus, especially against sleepers) and 90% web let you shoot sleeper frigs with your large guns. This version has no way to efficiently kill sleeper frigs at all (your drones will get switched to and popped in seconds) other than using the MJD and sniping them from range, which is a significant efficiency nerf for the Vargur and Paladin. A Neutron Kronos was very viable and huge ISK/hour with version 2, now it doesn't work at all since it will take several MJD jumps and waiting for the frigs to cross 100km to kill a single wave of them.

Version 2 was also far, far harder to gank. Most ganks in WHs involve a solo cloaky T3 holding you down until the gang arrives, and that's quite difficult against version 2. If they don't have a scrambler, they can't lock you down, and if they do have one, they have to come into 90% web range to use it which means they're probably eating the full DPS of your max DPS-fitted PvE guns. If their gang is even slightly late they'll have to disengage or die, allowing you to get away. If you decided to be meta and also fit a warp disruptor you could basically ensure that they also died with you. Version 1 is trivial to gank, they don't even need a cloaky because you'll be stuck in bastion mode and unable to escape.

V1 is definitely better for L4s, anomalies, and plexes, but it's much worse in wormholes and its PvP role is either going to be worthless or completely overpowered, depending on how good a completely immobile BS that is basically unkillable without massively blobbing it or using capital ships turns out to be.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4846 - 2013-10-06 16:17:36 UTC
Xequecal wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
Sobaan Tali wrote:
Fingers crossed they don't even consider iteration 2 (although the web bonus on the Kronos is fine, but on a Golem?). Either way, I will run some tests myself on Sisi. If iteration 1 doesn't pan out for me or they do switch back to iteration 2, I have been using a CNR for the last couple of weeks and I'll stick with that. I imagine many have already come up with similar contingency plans themselves.

Hopefully they won't murder pirate BS's too badly, but I have doubts that people will be happy with them in the end. Maybe I'm wrong, we'll see...


yeah, web bonus might be nice on a couple of the ships, but is it worth the loss of 30% omni-resists and 37.5% rep boost?
Even when you add t2 resists it still isn't worth this amount of tank loss.


The T2 resists version far superior for wormhole PvE, it gave sufficient resists to tank sites out of bastion (T2 resists are far superior to a 37.5% repair bonus, especially against sleepers) and 90% web let you shoot sleeper frigs with your large guns. This version has no way to efficiently kill sleeper frigs at all (your drones will get switched to and popped in seconds) other than using the MJD and sniping them from range, which is a significant efficiency nerf for the Vargur and Paladin. A Neutron Kronos was very viable and huge ISK/hour with version 2, now it doesn't work at all since it will take several MJD jumps and waiting for the frigs to cross 100km to kill a single wave of them.

Version 2 was also far, far harder to gank. Most ganks in WHs involve a solo cloaky T3 holding you down until the gang arrives, and that's quite difficult against version 2. If they don't have a scrambler, they can't lock you down, and if they do have one, they have to come into 90% web range to use it which means they're probably eating the full DPS of your max DPS-fitted PvE guns. If their gang is even slightly late they'll have to disengage or die, allowing you to get away. If you decided to be meta and also fit a warp disruptor you could basically ensure that they also died with you. Version 1 is trivial to gank, they don't even need a cloaky because you'll be stuck in bastion mode and unable to escape.

V1 is definitely better for L4s, anomalies, and plexes, but it's much worse in wormholes and its PvP role is either going to be worthless or completely overpowered, depending on how good a completely immobile BS that is basically unkillable without massively blobbing it or using capital ships turns out to be.



I would say that iteration 1 is better for everything except incursions compared to what is currently live.

While these ships may not be perfectly viable for pvp, they will perform solo pve in WHs better than any other ship, as long as you use their range.
Hell, the paladin is actually going to get the best benefit in WH space, as it doesn't require ammo.(Although crystals are pretty annoying once you can't restack them)

Bastion may screw you in the Event a cloaky catches you, but if that's the case, you weren't watching yourself well enough, and you were probably screwed before hand reguardless of bastion, web, tank, or anything else.
Vinyl 41
AdVictis
#4847 - 2013-10-06 16:43:35 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:



I would say that iteration 1 is better for everything except incursions compared to what is currently live.



gaining a huge overtank for an allready tanky ship with e war immunity at the price of a hugely overnerfed hull that wont work without bastion isnt rly better then the current TQ marauders i doubt people will rly fly those ships in wh and low because the changes turn them into mega slow space cows waiting there to get spanked
Lont Kruidvat
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#4848 - 2013-10-06 17:34:10 UTC
Greetings,

Can the Marauders get 3 rig slots, just 2 slots for a battleship seem just weird. Considering the cost and training time These sort of ships should be able to fit T2 rigs easily in my opinion and there for also need more calibration then the 400 they have now.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4849 - 2013-10-06 18:22:36 UTC
Vinyl 41 wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:



I would say that iteration 1 is better for everything except incursions compared to what is currently live.



gaining a huge overtank for an allready tanky ship with e war immunity at the price of a hugely overnerfed hull that wont work without bastion isnt rly better then the current TQ marauders i doubt people will rly fly those ships in wh and low because the changes turn them into mega slow space cows waiting there to get spanked



I have said a dozen times that the nerfs to the hull were unneeded and were only implemented to further push bastion and MJD.

However, WITH bastion, they're a lot better at what they were intended for originally.
Dorororo
Keroro Platoon
#4850 - 2013-10-06 18:28:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Dorororo
Xequecal wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
Sobaan Tali wrote:
Fingers crossed they don't even consider iteration 2 (although the web bonus on the Kronos is fine, but on a Golem?). Either way, I will run some tests myself on Sisi. If iteration 1 doesn't pan out for me or they do switch back to iteration 2, I have been using a CNR for the last couple of weeks and I'll stick with that. I imagine many have already come up with similar contingency plans themselves.

Hopefully they won't murder pirate BS's too badly, but I have doubts that people will be happy with them in the end. Maybe I'm wrong, we'll see...


yeah, web bonus might be nice on a couple of the ships, but is it worth the loss of 30% omni-resists and 37.5% rep boost?
Even when you add t2 resists it still isn't worth this amount of tank loss.


The T2 resists version far superior for wormhole PvE, it gave sufficient resists to tank sites out of bastion (T2 resists are far superior to a 37.5% repair bonus, especially against sleepers) and 90% web let you shoot sleeper frigs with your large guns. This version has no way to efficiently kill sleeper frigs at all (your drones will get switched to and popped in seconds) other than using the MJD and sniping them from range, which is a significant efficiency nerf for the Vargur and Paladin. A Neutron Kronos was very viable and huge ISK/hour with version 2, now it doesn't work at all since it will take several MJD jumps and waiting for the frigs to cross 100km to kill a single wave of them.

Version 2 was also far, far harder to gank. Most ganks in WHs involve a solo cloaky T3 holding you down until the gang arrives, and that's quite difficult against version 2. If they don't have a scrambler, they can't lock you down, and if they do have one, they have to come into 90% web range to use it which means they're probably eating the full DPS of your max DPS-fitted PvE guns. If their gang is even slightly late they'll have to disengage or die, allowing you to get away. If you decided to be meta and also fit a warp disruptor you could basically ensure that they also died with you. Version 1 is trivial to gank, they don't even need a cloaky because you'll be stuck in bastion mode and unable to escape.

V1 is definitely better for L4s, anomalies, and plexes, but it's much worse in wormholes and its PvP role is either going to be worthless or completely overpowered, depending on how good a completely immobile BS that is basically unkillable without massively blobbing it or using capital ships turns out to be.


Won't argue with the T2 resists being better for wormholes, but I'm not getting why Version 2 is "far, far harder to gank". If you had the extra midslot to even contemplate mounting a warp disruptor, you could just as easily mount 2 unbonused webs and get the same 90% bonused web in version 1. There's no other relevant difference between the 2 iterations.
PavlikX
Scan Stakan
HOLD MY PROBS
#4851 - 2013-10-06 20:19:38 UTC  |  Edited by: PavlikX
CCP must stop their marauder rebalance in Rubicon, probably it will be better to bring them in 1.1 version, after long constructive consultations with comunity.
Ulysses McTuffMuff
DeltaResearch
#4852 - 2013-10-06 21:32:20 UTC
Sarmatiko wrote:
"100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams" is an outdated bonus, especially after Noctis introduction.
Either make this bonus dependent from Marauders skill to achieve Noctis-like results, or increase this value to 500%. After all, now we have reduced MJD reactivation and 40km tractor range is not viable anymore with 100km jumps.
And I'm not even going to mention highly demanded salvaging bonus..Sad


agree
stoicfaux
#4853 - 2013-10-06 23:18:59 UTC
Thinking sideways, how about Marauders having a specialized Micro-Jump Drive that lets them jump to ships/objects instead of just 100km forward?

Lore wise, we're only supposed to be able to jump to a gravity source (in this case another ship.)

Game wise, we could then make Marauders short range damage kings (instead of giving them the current range bonii.) Once a minute, a slow moving target would get face-melted.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Aqualie
Macabre Votum
Northern Coalition.
#4854 - 2013-10-07 04:05:49 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Thinking sideways, how about Marauders having a specialized Micro-Jump Drive that lets them jump to ships/objects instead of just 100km forward?

Lore wise, we're only supposed to be able to jump to a gravity source (in this case another ship.)

Game wise, we could then make Marauders short range damage kings (instead of giving them the current range bonii.) Once a minute, a slow moving target would get face-melted.


Excellent idea. I would love to see this unique feature added to the Marauder class battleship. Coupled with a damage bonus added in bastion mode and a smartbomb range+damage bonus to replace the tractor beam bonus there may be some hope left for the guys that spent the time to train up Marauders
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4855 - 2013-10-07 04:19:10 UTC
Solo, anyone know what time this goes on test.. US time, cause I have yet to remember the time difference.
Daishan Auergni
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#4856 - 2013-10-07 04:38:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Daishan Auergni
Joe Risalo wrote:
Solo, anyone know what time this goes on test.. US time, cause I have yet to remember the time difference.


From: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=283065&find=unread

#1Posted: 2013.10.02 11:46 | Report | Edited by: CCP Goliath
Hi everyone,

This will be the general feedback thread for Rubicon features on Sisi. It's the place to go if your feedback or question does not relate to one of the feature/team specific threads that will be linked below come Monday. It will be locked until the update goes live on Sisi on Monday 7th October so that there is no confusion or unnecessary thread clutter. As always, please keep feedback constructive and polite if you want your voice to be heard and note that these features are works in progress. As announced in a separate thread, there will be a fresh TQ mirror incoming in the next 2 weeks.

Superfriends
High sec POCOs
Siphon pseudo silo deployable

Game of Drones
Marauder rebalance
Electronic Attack Frigate rebalance
Rapid Launcher rebalance
ISIS (Ship tree)
Certificate changes

RnB
DX11 by default if supported

Five 0
Warp curves
Interdictor rebalance

Trilambda
New Marauder animations for Kronos, Paladin, Golem
Assets for mobile home, cyno disruptor, cruiser and frigate SOE ships, rapid missile launcher, siphon pesudo silo deployable, command ship hulls, death scene, corpses, incoming stargate jumps, warp disruption bubbles, SMA wrecks, V3 SMAs
Please note that not all of these assets will be connected to their features yet, so while they will be in the client they may not be represented in gameplay at this time.


~~~~

So in a few hours, perhaps?
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4857 - 2013-10-07 05:03:35 UTC
Daishan Auergni wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
Solo, anyone know what time this goes on test.. US time, cause I have yet to remember the time difference.


From: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=283065&find=unread

#1Posted: 2013.10.02 11:46 | Report | Edited by: CCP Goliath
Hi everyone,

This will be the general feedback thread for Rubicon features on Sisi. It's the place to go if your feedback or question does not relate to one of the feature/team specific threads that will be linked below come Monday. It will be locked until the update goes live on Sisi on Monday 7th October so that there is no confusion or unnecessary thread clutter. As always, please keep feedback constructive and polite if you want your voice to be heard and note that these features are works in progress. As announced in a separate thread, there will be a fresh TQ mirror incoming in the next 2 weeks.

Superfriends
High sec POCOs
Siphon pseudo silo deployable

Game of Drones
Marauder rebalance
Electronic Attack Frigate rebalance
Rapid Launcher rebalance
ISIS (Ship tree)
Certificate changes

RnB
DX11 by default if supported

Five 0
Warp curves
Interdictor rebalance

Trilambda
New Marauder animations for Kronos, Paladin, Golem
Assets for mobile home, cyno disruptor, cruiser and frigate SOE ships, rapid missile launcher, siphon pesudo silo deployable, command ship hulls, death scene, corpses, incoming stargate jumps, warp disruption bubbles, SMA wrecks, V3 SMAs
Please note that not all of these assets will be connected to their features yet, so while they will be in the client they may not be represented in gameplay at this time.


~~~~

So in a few hours, perhaps?


I don't know how we're supposed to test bastion when he haven't even been given a for sure skill on it.
Lair Osen
#4858 - 2013-10-07 06:06:35 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:

I don't know how we're supposed to test bastion when he haven't even been given a for sure skill on it.


Well theres no info at all for half the stuff there so that'd be the least of the problems. Its probably still just HEP IV
DSpite Culhach
#4859 - 2013-10-07 09:56:21 UTC
I have been reading ALL of this thread. A few of things have become apparent:

* CCP should never again ask people for feedback on a hull :)
* CCP should never take a hull and make MASSIVE changes to it :)

I sincerely hope that any changes follow the idea that the Marauder hull can still be flown more or less the way it is now - maybe with some tweaks - and that it kinda-sorta can become a different beast when fitted with a MJD and a Bastion module.

There still seems to be a lot of people that did go out of their way to train a rather large number of SP's to fly them and and are now wide eyed annoyed at their ship suddenly needing to be flown totally different. I get that, I feel the pain.

On the other hand there's a strong chance we might get a hull that's far more commonly seen around the place and not an oddity when seen leaving a station. I pray this becomes a reality.

I guess I'll just wait for the changes, then go fly a Marauder or two. Or go outside and howl at the moon and repeatably beat my face into the sharp parts of my fence. Time shall tell.

I apparently have no idea what I'm doing.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#4860 - 2013-10-07 10:33:51 UTC
DSpite Culhach wrote:
I have been reading ALL of this thread. A few of things have become apparent:

* CCP should never again ask people for feedback on a hull :)
* CCP should never take a hull and make MASSIVE changes to it :)

I sincerely hope that any changes follow the idea that the Marauder hull can still be flown more or less the way it is now - maybe with some tweaks - and that it kinda-sorta can become a different beast when fitted with a MJD and a Bastion module.

There still seems to be a lot of people that did go out of their way to train a rather large number of SP's to fly them and and are now wide eyed annoyed at their ship suddenly needing to be flown totally different. I get that, I feel the pain.

On the other hand there's a strong chance we might get a hull that's far more commonly seen around the place and not an oddity when seen leaving a station. I pray this becomes a reality.

I guess I'll just wait for the changes, then go fly a Marauder or two. Or go outside and howl at the moon and repeatably beat my face into the sharp parts of my fence. Time shall tell.



THe best CCP can ever do is enver listen to YOU.

The fact hat CCP ASK for feedback is the only thing that prevented this game from failcascading several times already.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"