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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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DSpite Culhach
#4701 - 2013-10-03 01:25:49 UTC
Battle Cube wrote:

in all seriousness i would bring back the idea of making the marauder a "Luxury Battleship", since they clearly don't want to make it actually good at anything, make it fun. Some example bonuses:

increased drone bay
salvage drone bonus
salvage bonus
better loot quality chance on targets killed by marauder
ability to accept and complete missions from outside of station
better tractor bonus / capitol tractor
mining bonus (why the **** not)
add a little billboard
free fireworks
walking-in-station inside ship
ability to manufacture ammo on the go from loot/salvage
ammo bay
load drones from cargo into drone bay
fitting services
update info for hilarity
make bastion mode into luxury mode
give it a hacking bonus because why not


Well, my point was that CCP could probably jam a bunch of weird stuff on the Marauders, still have them crappy at PvP, still have them average at PvE, but make them really useful to keep out for long periods of time doing different activities, rather then have people switch ships every 10 minutes.

If you change them too much you annoy the current people that use them. If you add a bunch of features that go along with what people are ALREADY using them for, you make them happy.

Screw the idea of taking a multi billion ship into PvP. I'd rather lose 5 normal battleships, and a Marauder will not be as fun to get blown up as 5 normal battleships.

I apparently have no idea what I'm doing.
Wry Salen
Flying Scissors
#4702 - 2013-10-03 01:55:16 UTC
You know, what would be something cool and kind of useful.

In bastion mode

1. Double the gun cycle time
1. Double the alpha.

There. Suddenly there's a use for them in PVP, you don't really up the DPS at all and it's nifty in PVE.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4703 - 2013-10-03 02:15:42 UTC
Wry Salen wrote:
You know, what would be something cool and kind of useful.

In bastion mode

1. Double the gun cycle time
1. Double the alpha.

There. Suddenly there's a use for them in PVP, you don't really up the DPS at all and it's nifty in PVE.



How does double the cycle time and alpha not up dps????


Am I on crazy pills or something?
Vrykolakasis
Sparrowhawks Corp
#4704 - 2013-10-03 02:47:34 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
Wry Salen wrote:
You know, what would be something cool and kind of useful.

In bastion mode

1. Double the gun cycle time
1. Double the alpha.

There. Suddenly there's a use for them in PVP, you don't really up the DPS at all and it's nifty in PVE.



How does double the cycle time and alpha not up dps????


Am I on crazy pills or something?


Doubling the cycle time. So a 4 second cycle becomes an 8 second cycle.
Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
#4705 - 2013-10-03 02:48:03 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
Wry Salen wrote:
You know, what would be something cool and kind of useful.

In bastion mode

1. Double the gun cycle time
1. Double the alpha.

There. Suddenly there's a use for them in PVP, you don't really up the DPS at all and it's nifty in PVE.



How does double the cycle time and alpha not up dps????


Am I on crazy pills or something?


I believe what he is referring to make the guns/launchers take twice as long to fire but with twice the volley damage; same dps, but you get crazy alpha. Don't know how much I like it, but I must admit I would be interested to see it.

"Tomahawks?"

"----in' A, right?"

"Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each."

"----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#4706 - 2013-10-03 03:47:04 UTC
Gabriel Karade wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Gabriel Karade wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Gabriel Karade wrote:
Really?.... I guess the level 4 crowd really do shout the loudest.

Ok, seen as the Golem keeps a damage application bonus to it's short range weapon system (i.e. painter bonus for torpedoes), give the Kronos back it's web bonus (for blasters) keep the falloff and optimal bonuses for the Vargur and Paladin.

That way you have two 'long range optimised' Marauders, and two 'close-in optimised' for brawling.

I think the biggest problem you had with Iteration II was the blanket approach rather than keeping things distinct.


A web bonus on a ship that sits still is near useless to me.
If you're sitting still it's even more reason to have a web strength bonus, given you cannot move to reduce transversal of orbiting targets...


Most ships will be out of range before you can kill them. That rep bonus is a lot more useful.
Would you like to re-read what you wrote there and think on it?

Hint: 90% web...

Edit: And I was referring to reverting the falloff bonus back to the web.


And with most things MWDing around or attacking at much longer range than those webs it means that most ships can escape you. The kronos is too slow to effectivly use those webs and with all of those bonuses to damage projection and active tanking its clear this is no in your face brawler but more of a heavy sniper. The vindi is a much better ship to use with webs due to its faster speed meaning it can chase down its prey.

Webs do not fit the new kronos and would be a waste of a mid and an unused bonus.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#4707 - 2013-10-03 03:49:11 UTC
Sobaan Tali wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
Wry Salen wrote:
You know, what would be something cool and kind of useful.

In bastion mode

1. Double the gun cycle time
1. Double the alpha.

There. Suddenly there's a use for them in PVP, you don't really up the DPS at all and it's nifty in PVE.



How does double the cycle time and alpha not up dps????


Am I on crazy pills or something?


I believe what he is referring to make the guns/launchers take twice as long to fire but with twice the volley damage; same dps, but you get crazy alpha. Don't know how much I like it, but I must admit I would be interested to see it.


Nothing but arty boats.
Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
#4708 - 2013-10-03 03:56:46 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Sobaan Tali wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
Wry Salen wrote:
You know, what would be something cool and kind of useful.

In bastion mode

1. Double the gun cycle time
1. Double the alpha.

There. Suddenly there's a use for them in PVP, you don't really up the DPS at all and it's nifty in PVE.



How does double the cycle time and alpha not up dps????


Am I on crazy pills or something?


I believe what he is referring to make the guns/launchers take twice as long to fire but with twice the volley damage; same dps, but you get crazy alpha. Don't know how much I like it, but I must admit I would be interested to see it.


Nothing but arty boats.


Exactly. Can you say, "20k Alpha Arty Vargur"?

"Tomahawks?"

"----in' A, right?"

"Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each."

"----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."
Paja Patak
Whiskey Wing
#4709 - 2013-10-03 04:47:48 UTC
I personally don't like the changes on Marauder.. but that is just me. As a casual (solo) PVE player my use of Paladin so far was: get in the mission, start shooting everything with Tach's, drop salvage drones and bring loot / salvage closer so that drones can finish faster. Turn on AB to get closer / move away if DPS gets to heavy (rarely) . Web is nice for targets that got under 10k (rarely).
This is (in my opinion and in my way of playing the game) most efficient way of using the ship. Other people will comment but... I drink "Stella" and will not criticize you for drinking "Bud Light", it is your choice Lol

I firmly believe that CCP is trying to get this type of ship in PVP - big time.

1. FC will order "warp to x" to this class and then "align to planet x", "MJD". Then you got 10 marauders (without even going into "battle stations" mode) one big as* gun that will kill all from 200k (if pilots are synchronized), one at the time. ROF for Tach is about 6-7 seconds, volley about 3,7k (or so) per ship - at this example we are talking of 37k per shoot using Aurora. After 41 second (providing that pilots have MJD operation to lvl 5) and 6 or 7 kills , this group is ready to change position, again 100k away...

2. This will be first "mini dread" that will be allowed in high sec... Possibilities are endless. Alliances in war will camp Jita and shoot at red's, go to bastion mode until additional DPS arrives etc... Fun for some.

If CCP continue with this, I will lose a good tool for PVE. Nightmare may not be a option since they are going to redesign that group as well. But, just as in RL, you adapt and, hopefully, prevail.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#4710 - 2013-10-03 04:58:32 UTC
Quote:


I firmly believe that CCP is trying to get this type of ship in PVP - .


Thats exactly what their goal is.
Vorseger
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#4711 - 2013-10-03 05:15:25 UTC
Iome Ambraelle wrote:
They could always compromise:

  • T2 resists on the base hull
  • Keep the 7.5%/lvl local repair bonus on the base hull
  • Make Bastion slightly better than a DCU II 15% shield resists, 17.5% armor resists, 65% hull resists (only bastion or DCU can be fitted at one time)

This would effectively give all the hulls a low slot if you planned on using a DCU in your fit. It satisfies the call for T2 resists to help non mission based PVE. It is still equal to or better than the TQ version when tanking missions without bastion. And if you choose to use bastion, you recover the low slot of a DCU, have better tanking potential and range. That would be something I could get behind.


I'm a fan of this.
I would like the T2 resists.
I would like the current hull bonuses to stay as they are on TQ.
CCP can decide the specific amounts of % shield resist, % amror resists, and % hull resists for use of bastion mode.

It is a sort of compromise between the two options that are/were proposed changes.
A damage bonus of some kind in bastion mode would actually make me consider using it.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#4712 - 2013-10-03 06:34:16 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

Webs do not fit the new kronos and would be a waste of a mid and an unused bonus.


New Kronos is probably the most pointless ship in the Gallente lineup

Web bonus would make it viable.

That's all there really is to it tbh.


.
Vinyl 41
AdVictis
#4713 - 2013-10-03 06:55:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Vinyl 41
Vorseger wrote:
Iome Ambraelle wrote:
They could always compromise:

  • T2 resists on the base hull
  • Keep the 7.5%/lvl local repair bonus on the base hull
  • Make Bastion slightly better than a DCU II 15% shield resists, 17.5% armor resists, 65% hull resists (only bastion or DCU can be fitted at one time)

This would effectively give all the hulls a low slot if you planned on using a DCU in your fit. It satisfies the call for T2 resists to help non mission based PVE. It is still equal to or better than the TQ version when tanking missions without bastion. And if you choose to use bastion, you recover the low slot of a DCU, have better tanking potential and range. That would be something I could get behind.


I'm a fan of this.
I would like the T2 resists.
I would like the current hull bonuses to stay as they are on TQ.
CCP can decide the specific amounts of % shield resist, % amror resists, and % hull resists for use of bastion mode.

It is a sort of compromise between the two options that are/were proposed changes.
A damage bonus of some kind in bastion mode would actually make me consider using it.


so far that would be the best proposed iteration for the bastion module - as a better DCII + ewar immunity for a price of being stuck in 1 place
adding a med slot instead of high would be more beneficial because of the forced usage on MJD
Brib Vogt
Doomheim
#4714 - 2013-10-03 08:02:21 UTC
+1 to the last post!!

First: FIX the hull


  • T2 or close to T2 resists, OR Noctis resi distribution to create an easy omni tank
  • Higher scan resolution
  • Change in PG/CPU
  • Higher sensor strength
  • If you want to disable use of sentrys use a limitation but keep the size up in the drone bay
  • do not change speed, hull repair bonus
  • change a damage modifier to bring them in sync with the faction battleship, do not make them OP


Use the suggested change in Bastion from the two previous posts

this would be already awesome
Vulfen
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#4715 - 2013-10-03 09:11:41 UTC
@ CCP

Quote:
GOLEM

Role Bonus: 100% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo damage, 100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams, 70% reduction in Micro Jump Drive reactivation delay

Caldari Battleship Skill Bonus:
10% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo velocity
5% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo explosion velocity per level

Marauders Skill Bonus:
7.5% bonus to Shield Boost amount
10% bonus to effectiveness of target painters per level


Slot layout: 8H(+1), 7M, 4L; 0 turrets, 4 launchers
Fittings: 8500 PWG (+2000), 715 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 8000(-200) / 6100(-1200) / 7000(+300)
Shield resists: 0% EM / 50% EX / 47.5% KIN / 40% THERM
Armor resists: 50% EM / 10% EX / 34.375% KIN / 58.75% THERM
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 6325(+700) / 1150s (+226.1s) / 5.5 cap/s (-0.5)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 85 m/s(-20) / .12 / 114195000(+8995000) / 19s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25(-50) / 50(-25)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 95km(+5km) / 105(+32) / 10
Sensor strength: 14 Gravimetric
Signature radius: 450(-125)


From the current iteration the golem is not going to have a bonus to Rapid Heavy Missile Lauchers, which have not yet been posted about (cant wait to see them though) will ALL missile based BS Ships be getting a bonus to the new launcher or is it going to be restricted to a few?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#4716 - 2013-10-03 09:40:50 UTC
Roime wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

Webs do not fit the new kronos and would be a waste of a mid and an unused bonus.


New Kronos is probably the most pointless ship in the Gallente lineup

Web bonus would make it viable.

That's all there really is to it tbh.




Its a long ranged boat that is too slow to catch other battleships. Webs are near useless on such a ship, even more so with the vindi which would out class it in every way.
Gabriel Karade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#4717 - 2013-10-03 11:20:12 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Gabriel Karade wrote:


Ok, seen as the Golem keeps a damage application bonus to it's short range weapon system (i.e. painter bonus for torpedoes), give the Kronos back it's web bonus (for blasters) keep the falloff and optimal bonuses for the Vargur and Paladin.

That way you have two 'long range optimised' Marauders, and two 'close-in optimised' for brawling.

I think the biggest problem you had with Iteration II was the blanket approach rather than keeping things distinct.


And with most things MWDing around or attacking at much longer range than those webs it means that most ships can escape you. The kronos is too slow to effectivly use those webs and with all of those bonuses to damage projection and active tanking its clear this is no in your face brawler but more of a heavy sniper. The vindi is a much better ship to use with webs due to its faster speed meaning it can chase down its prey.

Webs do not fit the new kronos and would be a waste of a mid and an unused bonus.
The 'new' Kronos is too slow for that - the old Kronos was fine. As to being a 'heavy sniper', a falloff bonus is a wasted bonus with Railguns, as the fast reloads allow you to always have the correct ammo loaded and not be shooting deep into falloff. Now with blasters, a better bonus, but not at the expense of webs, while also becoming fat and slow.

If anything, this just further illustrates the identity crisis of the 'new' Kronos, hence my earlier comment about reverting this back to TQ attributes, which everyone already uses, get the bastion/MJD bonuses sorted then move on from there.

It's a Duvolle boat at the end of the day - blasters are Duvolle's 'thing'

War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293
Christyna Ishiyama
Perkone
Caldari State
#4718 - 2013-10-03 12:22:01 UTC
20 sec allign time? I even did not consider this one ...

its pretty bad, I can live with lower speed but why so "low" agility?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#4719 - 2013-10-03 12:34:32 UTC
Gabriel Karade wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Gabriel Karade wrote:


Ok, seen as the Golem keeps a damage application bonus to it's short range weapon system (i.e. painter bonus for torpedoes), give the Kronos back it's web bonus (for blasters) keep the falloff and optimal bonuses for the Vargur and Paladin.

That way you have two 'long range optimised' Marauders, and two 'close-in optimised' for brawling.

I think the biggest problem you had with Iteration II was the blanket approach rather than keeping things distinct.


And with most things MWDing around or attacking at much longer range than those webs it means that most ships can escape you. The kronos is too slow to effectivly use those webs and with all of those bonuses to damage projection and active tanking its clear this is no in your face brawler but more of a heavy sniper. The vindi is a much better ship to use with webs due to its faster speed meaning it can chase down its prey.

Webs do not fit the new kronos and would be a waste of a mid and an unused bonus.
The 'new' Kronos is too slow for that - the old Kronos was fine. As to being a 'heavy sniper', a falloff bonus is a wasted bonus with Railguns, as the fast reloads allow you to always have the correct ammo loaded and not be shooting deep into falloff. Now with blasters, a better bonus, but not at the expense of webs, while also becoming fat and slow.

If anything, this just further illustrates the identity crisis of the 'new' Kronos, hence my earlier comment about reverting this back to TQ attributes, which everyone already uses, get the bastion/MJD bonuses sorted then move on from there.

It's a Duvolle boat at the end of the day - blasters are Duvolle's 'thing'


Again, even the best webs will only cover antimatter range on blasters and the vindi will do that job a lot better. A ship that cannot move is a very bad ship to give a web bonus to.
CCP are not going to give us a poor copy of the vindi.
Major Killz
inglorious bastards.
#4720 - 2013-10-03 12:55:09 UTC
Web bonuses on them ALL to be honest with you. Use 80 - 90% stasis webifier bonus to the Golem and Paladin; Use increased range bonused stasis webifiers on the Kronos and Vargur...

[u]Ich bin ein Pirat ！[/u]