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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Dorororo
Keroro Platoon
#4681 - 2013-10-02 17:33:08 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
Dorororo wrote:
Everyone is going batshit crazy about the tractor beam structure without knowing the slightest thing about it.

You don't know the range of the tractors. You don't know the volume (hint: it's not going to be 5 m3).

You don't know if you can pick it up again. Good luck in AE if you have to drop a tractor structure every room.

You don't know how much it costs.

The current tractor beam bonus is very useful, and as been mentioned CCP is not going to give you a major DPS bonus in its place. Changing it to a salvage drone bonus just means that instead of waiting for wrecks to be salvaged, you're waiting to slowboat into 24km range to tractor the cans. And honestly even at Salvage Drone 4 I find the speed of salvaging perfectly acceptable especially compared to the time it takes using normal Salvager modules. Most of the time the wreck is salvaged before I can even tractor it in from 40km away.



He's a quote from me..

Quote:
I think the idea we see with the structure is to drop it while you're killing..
However, people are wondering the range, tractor velocity, amount of tractors, and if it draws aggro.

if it passes in all these areas, then it's a huge win.

That said, I think a lot of people want to see the tractor bonus dropped because CCP doesn't seem to want to buff the range, even though the new design is intended for ranged combat, making the mid range capability of tractors virtually useless.


I know, you're one of the few voices of reason in this entire topic. But even if CCP doesn't buff the range, a 48 km tractor is still WAY more useful than a 24 km tractor. Even if you use MJD, I'd still rather be able to MJD back and suck up everything in a 48 km radius than any other alternative. Can you imagine the aggravation from MJDing back and a can is 35km away?

Basically I agree with you that CCP is not going to give a substantial bonus back, and I'm extremely sceptical of the tractor structure until they release solid details about it.
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#4682 - 2013-10-02 17:42:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Ralph King-Griffin
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Hey people,

We've been away from this thread for a while to let things cool down a bit.

With Rubicon coming to Singularity soon, we've decided to revert Marauders to the original design for now, as we want to see how they actually fare in practice within player hands before committing to the version 2 change. We will let you know if and when we move to version 2 again. We’ll most likely open a new thread when they appear on Singularity as this one has become quite convoluted.

That means:


  • Shield, armor and hull resists in Bastion Mode only
  • Keep the 37.5% tank bonus on the Marauders, no web bonus


We are also aware this won't please everyone here - regarding their comparison with Pirate Battleships, especially the Machariel, please remember we have stated many times Pirate hulls were due for a rebalance, with Angel Cartel being on the front line for tuning changes.

Thanks for your time.

Fantastic

Edit: genuine about that

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4683 - 2013-10-02 17:45:25 UTC
Dorororo wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
Dorororo wrote:
Everyone is going batshit crazy about the tractor beam structure without knowing the slightest thing about it.

You don't know the range of the tractors. You don't know the volume (hint: it's not going to be 5 m3).

You don't know if you can pick it up again. Good luck in AE if you have to drop a tractor structure every room.

You don't know how much it costs.

The current tractor beam bonus is very useful, and as been mentioned CCP is not going to give you a major DPS bonus in its place. Changing it to a salvage drone bonus just means that instead of waiting for wrecks to be salvaged, you're waiting to slowboat into 24km range to tractor the cans. And honestly even at Salvage Drone 4 I find the speed of salvaging perfectly acceptable especially compared to the time it takes using normal Salvager modules. Most of the time the wreck is salvaged before I can even tractor it in from 40km away.



He's a quote from me..

Quote:
I think the idea we see with the structure is to drop it while you're killing..
However, people are wondering the range, tractor velocity, amount of tractors, and if it draws aggro.

if it passes in all these areas, then it's a huge win.

That said, I think a lot of people want to see the tractor bonus dropped because CCP doesn't seem to want to buff the range, even though the new design is intended for ranged combat, making the mid range capability of tractors virtually useless.


I know, you're one of the few voices of reason in this entire topic. But even if CCP doesn't buff the range, a 48 km tractor is still WAY more useful than a 24 km tractor. Even if you use MJD, I'd still rather be able to MJD back and suck up everything in a 48 km radius than any other alternative. Can you imagine the aggravation from MJDing back and a can is 35km away?

Basically I agree with you that CCP is not going to give a substantial bonus back, and I'm extremely sceptical of the tractor structure until they release solid details about it.



It's no less aggrivating than a wreck being 60 km from you and you're on CD for MJD
PavlikX
Scan Stakan
HOLD MY PROBS
#4684 - 2013-10-02 18:05:22 UTC
1. Sensors must be the same as T1 hulls
2. Tractors must be buffed to the 75% of Noctis range
3. Damage role bonus must changed from 100% to the 125%
4. Acc. to p.3 another skill bonus must be here.
5. Armor repairer/Shield booster and web bonuses must remains
6. MJD role bonus must be changed to the possibility to choose jump distance. 25, 50, 75 or 100 rms. With 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 and 1 cooling time.
7. More resits - good idea

In this case i will be happy with bastion module.
Long skills, big money must bring real profit.
Gabriel Karade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#4685 - 2013-10-02 18:23:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Gabriel Karade
Joe Risalo wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
Debora Tsung wrote:
Gabriel Karade wrote:
People do all the time. And besides, the point is you would get into web range before dropping into bastion (hello MJD bonus...)


Fair enough, how do you get into web range then, your marauder is atrociously slow, even with MWD. You'd need a tackler just to tackle the guy... Ugh


There are very few pilots that have the skills and cunning to take a 1 bliionin isk battleship on a solo roam and survive. All the other people who do this are complete idiots and will die 99% of the time.

The marauders should have a web range bonus which any experienced pvp'er would be able to make use of. You could easily dual prop the ship which would enable you to MJD to your target and get into web range using a conventional prop mod. Once in range, you hit bastion and try to kill your target before they escape web/point range.

Personally i think the web bonus should be added as a bonus gained from the bastion module its self. This way it would not directly compete with pirate faction BS.

If these new marauders can be kited at point range, i don't think they will be worth using in pvp.

Ps. why do we need a tractor bonus now that ccp will be introducing that looting structure?


I am strongly against any changes if it's at the cost of the current build, apart from tractor bonus.

web strength/range bonus will in no way strengthen these ships if it costs them any other bonus.
Two of them already have a web bonus...

Best way forward? Revert them back to their TQ bonuses that everyone is already using, then get the Bastion/MJD bonuses to work properly.

War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293
Dorororo
Keroro Platoon
#4686 - 2013-10-02 18:55:27 UTC
Gabriel Karade wrote:


Best way forward? Revert them back to their TQ bonuses that everyone is already using, then get the Bastion/MJD bonuses to work properly.


I very much agree. There is absolutely no need for any of the proposed nerfs, from drone bay to speed and mass.

Nerfs are for something that is OP. No one in their right mind thinks that a Marauder's drone bay, speed (lol) or mass is OP.

I've stated this previously and I will state it again. You should not nerf something in a misguided attempt to promote something else. All that will create is resentment among the player base instead of excitement over a new feature. Anyone who is not sold on the MJD/Bastion concept is not going to magically become happier if they are forced to use MJD/Bastion because of hull nerfs. Similarly, I do not understand how a drone nerf is going to "encourage" me to use my main weapons systems. It's not like I'm running with 4 tractors and 3 salvagers now and only doing dps with my Hammerhead IIs.
Violet Winters
I HAVE THE POWER OF GOD AND ANIME ON MY SIDE
Blue Eyes and Exodia Toon Duelist Kingdom Duelers
#4687 - 2013-10-02 19:02:45 UTC
o/ CCP Ytterbium

Was wondering if we could have a confirmation on the skills required to use the Bastion Module, that way I can start training it, my Marauders V finishes soon.

Thanks, Rubicon looks very exciting!

CEO - Anglic Eclipse.
Stjaerna Ramundson
#4688 - 2013-10-02 19:25:50 UTC
I would like bother you to put in also the 2. weaponsystem marauder for each faction.

Amarr
System: Drone fokus
Ship: Abaddon hull for the Tech II

Caldari
System: Hybrid Weapon
Ship: Rokh hull for the Tech II

Gallente
System: Drone fokus
Ship: Hyperion hull for the Tech II (old overwork fred for BS there is from a Guy a very very VERY nice picture of a new chassis for the Hyperion)

Minmatar
System: Missile
Ship: Maelstrom hull for the Tech II


Why these hulls:
These ships don't have a Tech II Variant, so it is more ease of installation than in recreation of the other variant (i think)

That would be very nice, *still waiting for his Drone Marauder* ^^
  1. Eigenen Beitrag mit sachliche Argumentationen, Problemschilderung, Erklärung, Lösungsansätzen formulieren.
  2. Beitrag enthält eine eigene Meinung im Fazit zum Thema.
  3. Negative Äußerungen, Drohungen usw. gegenüber Nutzern haben in der Meinung nichts zu suchen.
marVLs
#4689 - 2013-10-02 19:31:18 UTC
What about those Rapid Heavy Missiles? Maybe some bonus on Golem for them?
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#4690 - 2013-10-02 19:44:12 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Debora Tsung wrote:
Vulfen wrote:
I think the general consenous here is [...]

That's exactly the problem.

There is no general consensus.

None. At all.

People want a web strengh bonus, people want no web bonus, people want a web range bonus but no bastion module tank bonus, people want a bastion module that increases dps but not tank, people want a bastion module that increases tank but lowers dps (whatever that's good for)... it's crazy really. o_O

There is everything but general consensus there is none. Shocked


The only thing that is guaranteed is the ship class will be nerfed badly for PvE activities.
Especially high end ones like Incursions.

Whatever the null sec cartels get as the final modifications, rest assured they will ruin the ship for high sec activities.

True... but only if you assume that all high sec activities are performed by those with severe learning disabilities. Blink

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4691 - 2013-10-02 20:49:03 UTC
I don't know about you guys,

but I'm pretty sure AT 12 will decide if these ships are good at pvp, and whether or not they get nerfed.


That's how this works isn't it?Blink
Wedgetail
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#4692 - 2013-10-02 21:00:10 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
I don't know about you guys,

but I'm pretty sure AT 12 will decide if these ships are good at pvp, and whether or not they get nerfed.


That's how this works isn't it?Blink


the alliance tourney determines whether or not fozzie has to give ASB bonuses to yet more ships to make everyone fit ASB's to everything, and to a lesser extent how many hulls in a race's line up should be forced to convert to missile kites just cuz they got used once as missile kites and looked cool. ;)


or in this year's case...his MJD obsession, sentry drones get scared, i'ma thinking his disdain for space potatoes might cause a nerf X)

but i am agreed with you, CCP has a very short view of their own game given all the data they have....
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4693 - 2013-10-02 21:07:04 UTC
Wedgetail wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
I don't know about you guys,

but I'm pretty sure AT 12 will decide if these ships are good at pvp, and whether or not they get nerfed.


That's how this works isn't it?Blink


the alliance tourney determines whether or not fozzie has to give ASB bonuses to yet more ships to make everyone fit ASB's to everything, and to a lesser extent how many hulls in a race's line up should be forced to convert to missile kites just cuz they got used once as missile kites and looked cool. ;)


or in this year's case...his MJD obsession, sentry drones get scared, i'ma thinking his disdain for space potatoes might cause a nerf X)

but i am agreed with you, CCP has a very short view of their own game given all the data they have....



Either that, or Goons/Test cry loud enough....
Doed
Tyrfing Industries
#4694 - 2013-10-02 21:12:54 UTC
No t2 resists so they remain absolutely garbage outside of Bastion(even worse than before due to mass agility and velocity, oh and drones! nerf) so they'll be crap outside of soloing or 2-3man PVE stuff.

I'm sorry but I'm absolutely NOT impressed with this. It's actually the Oddesey/Rubicon change(s) I'm least impressed with.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#4695 - 2013-10-02 21:41:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Just stick with the existing Marauders and make these T3 Flagships instead. Give the Marauders some T2 resists and they should be good to go.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Archa4 Badasaz
Vangazhi
#4696 - 2013-10-02 21:50:54 UTC
This is bothering me more and more.
Why are marauders getting their speed and agility nerfed? MJD? Align speed 20s. 20s is 2.5 times slower then it is now. I usually spend 2-3 jumps between missions and do have to align frequently - this align time is ****ing me up greatly.
Speed - another thing - torp golem DOES NOT need MJD. It has 40Km firing range, and I use it only in missions that benefit from that DPS at that range. Speed 80 instead of 120 is a 33%decrease. WHY? Again, I don't need MJD to warp 100KM all I need is 10-15 km to travel per mission. For those who can "get to any point within 2 jumps": yeah, but what are you going to do in a torp Golem when you are 100Km away from rats after first jump?

A somewhat better Missile boat for L4 becomes a low speed, slow turning brick, that you have to jump around with MJD, instead of just flying like a normal ship...
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4697 - 2013-10-02 21:56:11 UTC
Archa4 Badasaz wrote:
This is bothering me more and more.
Why are marauders getting their speed and agility nerfed? MJD? Align speed 20s. 20s is 2.5 times slower then it is now. I usually spend 2-3 jumps between missions and do have to align frequently - this align time is ****ing me up greatly.
Speed - another thing - torp golem DOES NOT need MJD. It has 40Km firing range, and I use it only in missions that benefit from that DPS at that range. Speed 80 instead of 120 is a 33%decrease. WHY? Again, I don't need MJD to warp 100KM all I need is 10-15 km to travel per mission. For those who can "get to any point within 2 jumps": yeah, but what are you going to do in a torp Golem when you are 100Km away from rats after first jump?

A somewhat better Missile boat for L4 becomes a low speed, slow turning brick, that you have to jump around with MJD, instead of just flying like a normal ship...



They got a speed nerf to force MJD.
They got an agility nerf to balance bastion and give fast tackle 20 seconds to catch up to you before you can align and warp.

If we had a range buff to MJD and range selection, that wouldn't be bad at all.
I might even give up the shorter cycle time for range selection.
Battle Cube
Cube Collective
#4698 - 2013-10-02 22:12:08 UTC
Doed wrote:
No t2 resists so they remain absolutely garbage outside of Bastion(even worse than before due to mass agility and velocity, oh and drones! nerf) so they'll be crap outside of soloing or 2-3man PVE stuff.

I'm sorry but I'm absolutely NOT impressed with this. It's actually the Oddesey/Rubicon change(s) I'm least impressed with.


+1
Siddicus
Nation of Sidd
#4699 - 2013-10-02 22:26:32 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:

They may even help with people running different types of incursions.
Last time I checked there was a specific type of incursions that no one runs due to ewar (sorry, I don't run incursions so i'm not sure which ones it is).


The one type of incursions people ignore are Assault fleets because of NCNs they require both battleships and battlecruisers to complete and nobody really feels like hauling them around. And command ships are forced to go onto the battleship side when doing that site.
Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#4700 - 2013-10-02 22:35:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Iome Ambraelle
They could always compromise:

  • T2 resists on the base hull
  • Keep the 7.5%/lvl local repair bonus on the base hull
  • Make Bastion slightly better than a DCU II 15% shield resists, 17.5% armor resists, 65% hull resists (only bastion or DCU can be fitted at one time)

This would effectively give all the hulls a low slot if you planned on using a DCU in your fit. It satisfies the call for T2 resists to help non mission based PVE. It is still equal to or better than the TQ version when tanking missions without bastion. And if you choose to use bastion, you recover the low slot of a DCU, have better tanking potential and range. That would be something I could get behind.

Edit: To be clear, I personally like the iteration 1 bastion module. My primary problem is all the hull reductions to drive the use of bastion and/or the MJD.

Shield Tanking - Why armor tanking can't have nice things.