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Dev Blog: Player Owned Customs offices in Hi-Sec

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Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#241 - 2013-10-02 03:01:26 UTC
so if you place a CO in highsec it will have a skill dependent NPC tax + a player configured, standing based tax?

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
Wyn Pharoh
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#242 - 2013-10-02 03:29:43 UTC
Elana Maggal wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
[quote=Elana Maggal]

And I understand why you are complaining. You obviously have some profitable PI scheme setup in a trade hub and you don't want your cash cow inconvenienced by this new mechanic. Plan to adapt already! Hell, use red frog to move the goods to an isolated area and run your PI there. Your being pretty insane tbh, but now you know how all those tech-moon holders felt when moongoo was changed!


It's the one thing you got right among all your other dribble. I have gone to some considerable trouble in both training and time investment wise to set up a PI scheme setup, trade circuit.

And now it will be plundered and given away to either the GOON turds or some other hi-sec alliance becuz - suddenly Player Ownership is SO bloody important in hi-sec - that any previous play by so-called lazy "carebears" should be deemed worthless.

But you know what the funny part about all this is Gizz? PI has got to be the one of the suckiest game play mechanics in all of Eve. CCP hasn't done diddley squat with it (for the most part) since it's release. The UI sucks, the gameplay is inane and painful - the weekly milk runs to collect your PI is painful. The whole PI mechanic - I feel like I'd have a funner time if I bought a drill and drilled a hole in each of my teeth one at a time.

So yeah - I'm like perhaps making what? 20mil - 25mil a week off of PI and it is the only reason I'm doing it. I'm not doing it because it's fun. So yeah - I lose maybe 100mil income a month as a hi-sec "carebear" that wants to play in a sandbox that doesn't involved kissing the ass of some nul-sec sociopathic leader.

So - the end result? I stop doing PI (along with probably quite a few other hi-sec players.) The goon turds and other hi-sec alliances obviously will takeover the most profitable planets and will make a nice passive income for themselves.

Perhaps not having to do weekly PI is a blessing in disguise. Can I afford a 100 mil loss in income a month? Yeah - I can afford it ... Probably exactly the kind of sink CCP is looking for with Industrialists - since they've been hammering us now for the last year or two while serving up cake to the nul-sec alliances like nobody's business. Maybe the new deployable hangar might even things out. We'll see. I only got so much time for GOON turd shenanigans and a group of players and designers that want the sand in the sand box to be only one color.


The bold, underlined text aught to give hope to all of those freaked out in Hisec right now. Living in Nullsec, doing PI, including Jita shipping costs, I make considerably more at my PI than that. There is no reason for anyone with access to quality Planets to even bother to consider using any planet in Hisec. At all. Ever. If one major powerbloc captures every plasma planet in hisec, so what? They will still be terrible resource producers. The only reason for a Nullsec Powerbloc to hold onto these resources will be tax revenue, and overly high taxes will crash this new passive income source resoundingly. A group like Goonswarm DOES NOT NEED to invest 130mil+ isk per burnable structure to 'grief' Hisec. Expect that there will be some done 'for the lols' and yes, this is Eve. Expect to adapt just as soon as things have become comfortable.

I can't say I exactly like the costly wardec mechanics that will shield larger entities from smaller blocs. I don't believe that it will be good for Eve if Nullsec blocs exploit a new passive alliance income mechanic. I really hope that existing Hisec groups have fun with a new way to interact with mechanics in Hisec and that CCP will resoundingly squash anything that results otherwise from these proposed changes.

I've heard talk that Blocs will shut down Hisec to raise their own PI incomes. Unlike moon-goo, this will help their enemies universally, and aside from individual speculative gains, this is not a winning scenario. Since there is no way to cut their enemies out of the loop, there isn't any practical cartel model. There will surely be some shenanigans. This is Eve after all.
None ofthe Above
#243 - 2013-10-02 03:30:20 UTC
Bienator II wrote:
so if you place a CO in highsec it will have a skill dependent NPC tax + a player configured, standing based tax?


Yep

The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit.
Andre Vauban
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#244 - 2013-10-02 04:23:40 UTC
I am not a big fan of requiring you to declare war to take down a POCO. This gives a unfair advantage to large alliances, where the war dec fee is 500M. At that price point, it is not worth it to try and nibble away POCOs. I would prefer anybody can shoot a POCO at anytime and they get a suspect timer.

.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#245 - 2013-10-02 04:34:59 UTC
how is 500m a big deal to you

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Jen Takhesis
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#246 - 2013-10-02 04:46:21 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:
We are introducing a new trainable skill, Customs Code Expertise, which will reduce the NPC portion of the tax rate, but 10% per level (so at level 5 the NPC export tax rate will be 5% rather than 10%). Again, this skill only affects the NPC portion of the tax, not the player owner tax.


Criminal Connections should take off an additional 0.5% per level or so.
John B'dlam
Forkhaul Logistics Ltd.
#247 - 2013-10-02 05:49:52 UTC
Elana Maggal wrote:
Wow - like I'm suppose to believe that key planets near well-known industrial sectors and Jita won't be taken over by the GOON turds or other Nul-sec alliances.
How could they take very many of them when there's plenty of locals who are more prepared to deal with highsec's unique environment and would love the fight defending a POCO would bring? Highsec isn't just lone-wolf industrialists, there are many entities who could go toe-to-toe with any sustained effort a nullsec alliance could bring.

Elana Maggal wrote:
I guess virtuous John wants me to believe the Rocky Road ice cream he's feeding me isn't dog turd.
Stay classy, now.

Elana Maggal wrote:
Pool your resources. Yeah all solo players are anti-social. We should all be or create our own giant GOON alliance - I mean that's what an open - well balanced sand box is all about right? As long as we act just like the GOONS and play by the rules that John B'dlam and his turd GOON CSM/CPP crew devise - then we should all be alright. It all works out - no problem here!

To heck with solo game players in hi-sec (that's not how a sandbox game is supposed to be played!!) I mean, who does that anyway in an MMO? Solo players - are you nuts? INCONCEIVABLE. PI for new players - as an entry level income. Are you crazy??
Two guys and an army of alts have never managed to hold on to a contested resource. Very little will change for new players, as they won't be trying to take the POCO, they'll merely be using it.

Elana Maggal wrote:
Nah- the big alliances, they won't get involved. Plenty enough planets for everyone. No droids here. Move along ...
Y'know, I live in lowsec. Lowsec has had POCO's for a while now. Heck, I even own a few. One thing I notice when looking at the POCO's around me is that they pretty much all are held by local groups, and they all have reasonable tax rates. Despite the fact that nullsec alliances could defend one in lowsec a lot better than they could in highsec, they don't even seem to bother here.
Josef Djugashvilis
#248 - 2013-10-02 06:14:08 UTC
Andski wrote:
how is 500m a big deal to you


If you need to ask the question, you would not understand the answer.

This is not a signature.
Dr Zoltar Mulvrais
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#249 - 2013-10-02 06:17:25 UTC
I used to do PI, before the taxes were implemented. I stopped bothering with it when the taxes were introduced since there was no profit margin at all because the taxes were too high to bother wasting my time.
I still haven't gotten back into it, and changes that allow players that don't even reside in the same security status to directly control something meant partially to help newbies gain some extra isk is not something I can support.
I am okay with the idea of people messing with other's sandcastles in the box, but this change can easily be turned into leaving some with no sand at all. I doubt this is something ccp intends, especially as it could easily result in another drop in subscriptions (people have accounts dedicated to PI), which is something I doubt they can afford as they seem intent on trying to make the game more and more newb-friendly. I'm not a fan of dumbing down the game either, but this isn't the right course of action at current.

There needs to be some form of restriction on who can acquire the pocos in hisec, and not something that can just be bought. Perhaps something related to activity in the area, like industry indexes in sov null, but without the need for structures. I like the idea of opening up COs to players, but without limitations, it is very likely to be abused. Also, if they are to be player owned, the resources available to hisec are pale in comparison, even to losec, so either ditch the npc tax or increase yield in hisec, and use an existing skill to reduce the tax percentage paid to the hisec, both npc and player.

Unfortunately, certain planets will be in high demand, much like moons, and cfc is probably choosing the planets which are the bottlenecks of PI. This is going to be OTEC 2.0 to a degree, probably more to point out the flaw to ccp, at many players' expense (again). Wardecs and Command Centres aren't viable workarounds for a lot of players. Even if a group of lone wolves were to form up into a corp to wardec a large alliance in control, the wardec cost, plus the cost of rebuilding a new poco is going to be prohibitive, and not worthwhile, thereby short circuiting ccp's grand vision of how this will play out. There needs to be some form of compromise between forcing social interaction and practicality of the game environment being capable of catering to smaller groups for the sake of player retention.

TL;DR
- There needs to be more restrictions put in place on who can put up pocos in hisec to reduce abuse by any particular corp.
- NPC taxes should be full out removed from pocos, and should be 5% as a base on npc ones as the tax is currently prohibitive. Also, stop adding skills for random little things if another skill does a very similar thing.
- There need to be more practical options to circumvent poco taxes, especially as relocating and wardecs (to a point) are impractical.
- If CCP wants to kill hisec, they may as well just say it, and do it and deal with the consequences. Constantly destroying facets of gameplay in general is not productive to the growth of the game long term.
El 1974
Green Visstick High
#250 - 2013-10-02 06:52:47 UTC  |  Edited by: El 1974
What strikes me is that this feature seems to be designed to facilitate the large alliances (which happen to have been able to provide feedback through the CSM) without taking the smaller industrials in mind who actually use the Custom Offices.
If you look at the POCOs right now then most of them are placed by people who actually live near where the POCO's are: in lowsec they are owned by various corporations: local pirates as well as industrial corporations that have been willing to take the risk. In nullsec most are owned by alliances that inhabit the area. Even renter alliances own many POCOs. In WHs the situation is similar. The Interbus COs were replaced because those alliances had an incentive to do so: lower taxes. With the plan for hisec this is not the case: you can not lower your taxes by putting up your own POCO, so the people that use the POCOs have no incentive to take risk by putting up their own POCOs.
So a couple of alliances will try to grab a piece of the action at the start. Many Interbus COs will die by the hands of people who have no intention to put up their own POCO. It's an easy killmail to improve your statistics. Many nullsec alliances that have sov space won't even bother with hisec POCOs in the first place.
After the initial land grab I don't expect much more to happen. Once alliances have POCOs they will not put those at risk. If they wardec someone they risk having lots of other alliances ally themselves with the victim. I wonder if this is the reason why CCP designed it so the large alliances wouldn't have to bother with taking POCOs from the smaller industrial alliances.
Captain Africa
GRIM MARCH
#251 - 2013-10-02 07:26:51 UTC
I think the whole high sec POCO move is to incorporate Dust 514 with Eve more. Essentially you would be able to hire a Dust corp to take over a POCO. The team fighting the battle will consist of 16 players max. This gives most corporations a chance of taking over a POCO , however I would strongly suggest that Eve players should also take over POCOS via current game mechanics.

Huge alliances wont play a big role here and if they do , it wont be the obvious alliances that will dominate.


For more information on how I see POCOS pan out see : https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=243147 and https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=83672
Eryn Velasquez
#252 - 2013-10-02 07:32:03 UTC
Some small points:

remove the NPC-tax completely
take x% from the holder of the CO, where x is the same as the tax-rate he takes. If he takes 10%, 10% of his tax-income goes to the ISK-sink
charge a fee for every tax-change (it's still faction space, or not?) to prevent hourly tax-rate changes - this will add a little planning security

forget the skill

_“A man's freedom consists in his being able to do whatever he wills, but that he should not, by any human power, be forced to do what is against his will.” ― Jean-Jacques Rousseau _
Rakshasa Taisab
Sane Industries Inc.
#253 - 2013-10-02 08:08:13 UTC
Aryth wrote:
As the person that developed the highsec poco plans...Your fears of Goons taking over all the highsec pocos are completely unfounded. It isn't required or desired.

What you should really be worried about hasn't even been brought up yet.

Me and my stockpile of P4 support your quest to increase the opportunity cost of high-sec production of advanced commodities.

Nyan
Imiarr Timshae
Funny Men In Funny Hats
#254 - 2013-10-02 08:08:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Imiarr Timshae
I wonder whether they considered making it so that you need corporation faction standings to claim a POCO rather than destroy it. For example to claim a POCO in 0.7 you need 7.00 Corporation standings to the owning faction or some mechanic like this. Just like POS.

If another entity has requisite standings they can war dec your corporation and blah blah fight for the POCO.

That would mean the large blocs wouldn't be able to do anything because they never bothered with PvE etc - that or the members that did would need to form a splinter organisation which would be much smaller and more resistable if they decide to roll all the highsec POCO's.

It would kinda make sense considering that otherwise the Caldari State will have 90% + of their customs offices - orbiting planets with Caldari Citizens - controlled by an entity that for all intents and purposes is a hostile entity.

In this situation you get the Caldari Loyalists and in particular those with good reputation/standing within the state the chance to obtain some degree of control of the area they worked to gain influence in.

Otherwise it's a lot like the Guristas controlling every POCO in Caldari Highsec - not much sense, right?

Personal Standings Services - Free 3rd Party & Collateral Holding Service - 7+ Day Old Corps for Highsec POS Sales
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#255 - 2013-10-02 08:25:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Zappity
A coalition-level POCO grab around the hubs. Set tax prices low and sit for six months. Crank tax up. PI interdiction without a shot fired.

For bonus points do a PI (hauler) interdiction timed to coincide with Burn Jita or Hulkageddon.

Good stuff.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#256 - 2013-10-02 08:34:58 UTC
Imiarr Timshae wrote:
I wonder whether they considered making it so that you need corporation faction standings to claim a POCO rather than destroy it. For example to claim a POCO in 0.7 you need 7.00 Corporation standings to the owning faction or some mechanic like this. Just like POS.

If another entity has requisite standings they can war dec your corporation and blah blah fight for the POCO.

That would mean the large blocs wouldn't be able to do anything because they never bothered with PvE etc - that or the members that did would need to form a splinter organisation which would be much smaller and more resistable if they decide to roll all the highsec POCO's.

It would kinda make sense considering that otherwise the Caldari State will have 90% + of their customs offices - orbiting planets with Caldari Citizens - controlled by an entity that for all intents and purposes is a hostile entity.

In this situation you get the Caldari Loyalists and in particular those with good reputation/standing within the state the chance to obtain some degree of control of the area they worked to gain influence in.

Otherwise it's a lot like the Guristas controlling every POCO in Caldari Highsec - not much sense, right?


Nope, they have not.

This would make it way to complicated for the Nullsecers to come back to highsec and grab things. This question was answered earlier and with a decisiv No.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Mako Helugo
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#257 - 2013-10-02 08:42:40 UTC
Remove the npc tax, put a cap not exceeding current tax level to npc. Remove the deny access options.

Slave-master still can take(fight for) their share
Slaves still can do PI no worse than present.

Problem solved.
Imiarr Timshae
Funny Men In Funny Hats
#258 - 2013-10-02 08:47:50 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:


Nope, they have not.

This would make it way to complicated for the Nullsecers to come back to highsec and grab things. This question was answered earlier and with a decisiv No.


Doesn't that make a degree of sense though?

Not only functionally - those who live in highsec govern themselves because they are "liked" by the factions that "own" the space, and those who are up the political ladder can use that influence to gain control over planetary imports and exports - but also canonically? As I said it would literally be like.. say... The Guristas coming to highsec and controlling every POCO.

Then on the other hand there are the nullsec entities who are printing ISK like you would not believe. If they want to have a division or a wing or whatever of their organisation come to try to control highsec, why not require standings? Doesn't it make sense that The State/Empire/Republic/Federation would have a vested interest in having people who are friendly to them run the POCO's? The promote growth and wealth and to line the pockets of the loyalists who have earnt it rather than the blobs.

It's worth pointing out that I'm not hater of Goons etc. I just can't see this proposal in it's current state as anything other than a nullbear POCO grab en mass that makes absolutely no canonical sense.

Personal Standings Services - Free 3rd Party & Collateral Holding Service - 7+ Day Old Corps for Highsec POS Sales
Ley 'Urhg' Grotman
Justified and Ancient
#259 - 2013-10-02 08:51:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Ley 'Urhg' Grotman
Elana Maggal wrote:
I have gone to some considerable trouble in both training and time investment wise to set up a PI scheme setup, trade circuit.
--
So yeah - I'm like perhaps making what? 20mil - 25mil a week off of PI and it is the only reason I'm doing it
With very little effort and a not very well thought out scheme I make 200 -250 million a month (=50m+ / week), doing PI on two HS planets a few jumps from Jita. All in all it takes about an hour each week, including shipping.
You're doing it wrong.

On topic: Good change!

Ley scurries off to steal some gantries...
Oxide Ammar
#260 - 2013-10-02 09:10:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Oxide Ammar
I always hear about people accusing CCP favoring null sec alliances and their bullshit politics but I never believed any of this till today. You are actually handing over hi sec bit by bit to them, and on top of that you still keeping the npc tax rate with stupid new skill to lower it. I don't know why tax should be payed to NPC, you destroyed their POCO and you placed yours and you still paying to them...this is fail logic.

Lady Areola Fappington:  Solo PVP isn't dead!  You just need to make sure you have your booster, remote rep, cyno, and emergency Falcon alts logged in and ready before you do any solo PVPing.