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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Josh Cox
FC Build 'n Trade
#4561 - 2013-10-01 13:23:53 UTC
First off, I'm assuming that the first post hasn't been update with the resist numbers, because they still look like T2 resists to me. So my post is based on current Marauder resists because I don't think that was going to change originally.

I do think that version 1 (current proposed version) is far better suited for solo PvE activities, and Marauders were originally meant for PvE, so it makes sense and I'm happy about that. This revision will make solo PvE far easier.

However, I am sad about the loss of EHP when not in Bastion mode as I really wanted to try flying these in incursions. I guess I'll have to wait around for the pirate BS rebalance to settle on an incursion ship.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4562 - 2013-10-01 13:30:15 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
...and so we are back to square one.

let me reiterate my concerns with the old proposal (i.e. the new new proposal):
- marauders will become "too strong" for lvl4s, to the point where even pirate ships will be obsolete.
- their already questionable performance in incursions will be completely subpar
- the two points above will anger a portion of current pirate BS as well as marauder pilots. they will adapt eventually, but sill, forcing another set of 30day skills on people is kind of a **** move.
- the bastion module is a questionable pvp tool. it will increase the number of situations where one party has a default win over the other. for example, if a small gang does not bring cap warfare or overwhelming damage, they have no way of breaking through a well set up marauder, while at the same time having no chance to outrange it. on the other hand, locking your 1bil marauder in space for 60 seconds will often be a death sentence as it allows a competent frigate pilot an easy tackle.
- for pve outside of hisec bastion is not a good option, as it reduces the chance of getting away when ambushed.

now i know that you desperately want to keep the bastion module on the current marauders hulls (probably because you don't want to 'waste' the fancy animations). my proposal would be to scrap the bonus tank as well as the ewar (and remote rep) immunity and only keep the bonus range in exchange for immobility. this would keep the hisec crowd satisfied. for pvp, the new MJD bonus together with a buff in EHP and mobility would be more than enough to keep the class interesting (think T2 'attack' battleship).


- Marauders will tanks lvl 4's better, but ultimately this will help them in other areas of solo pve more so than lvl 4's.
- These are designed to be solo ships, if you want to fleet, get a navy/pirate
- I think CCP has actually attached bastion to a shorter duration skill
- this should make those that wanted Marauder to "Maraud" happy. Besides, they're hardly usable in pvp as they are on live, if at all outside of AT. Also, while it will be hard to break a bastioned Marauder, brawler fitted pirate ships will be a natural counter, as they can get under Marauder gun tracking and simply orbit.
- That's a risk you take in any ship... I can show up in a Pirate bs, or a titan, and still take the risk of getting ambushed.

No to the last part... If i'm locked in place, there's no way that a measily 25% weapon range is worth immobility.
I'm a Golem pilot. I can already fire missile farther than my lock range, so how would only 25% range bonus for immobility help me at all???
Ager Agemo
Rainbow Ponies Incorporated
#4563 - 2013-10-01 13:32:43 UTC
so a dominix is still better than any marauder for making isk, and for fleets? why is it so hard to just turn marauders into marauders and make them oversized HACs?

bastion is a death sentence in fleets, no one is going to use them on true fleets.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4564 - 2013-10-01 13:38:27 UTC
Ager Agemo wrote:
so a dominix is still better than any marauder for making isk, and for fleets? why is it so hard to just turn marauders into marauders and make them oversized HACs?

bastion is a death sentence in fleets, no one is going to use them on true fleets.


That's the point though.

They're intended to be solo ships, which makes them niche in pvp.

If you want a fleet ship, get a different ship
Ager Agemo
Rainbow Ponies Incorporated
#4565 - 2013-10-01 13:40:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Ager Agemo
Joe Risalo wrote:
Ager Agemo wrote:
so a dominix is still better than any marauder for making isk, and for fleets? why is it so hard to just turn marauders into marauders and make them oversized HACs?

bastion is a death sentence in fleets, no one is going to use them on true fleets.


That's the point though.

They're intended to be solo ships, which makes them niche in pvp.

If you want a fleet ship, get a different ship



Solo ships in a Massive online game... something feels off don't you think?



hmmm so I have been thinking about it and like... if you change the mjd to mwd cap use, that would make bastion marauders pretty nice, bastion would be like omfg emergency switch when things go bad so you can get help, wouldn't that be better? plus mjd is useless in pve :( I m not going to do Pythagoras each time I want to land at a jump gate, that's asking too much -.-
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4566 - 2013-10-01 13:43:48 UTC
Ager Agemo wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
Ager Agemo wrote:
so a dominix is still better than any marauder for making isk, and for fleets? why is it so hard to just turn marauders into marauders and make them oversized HACs?

bastion is a death sentence in fleets, no one is going to use them on true fleets.


That's the point though.

They're intended to be solo ships, which makes them niche in pvp.

If you want a fleet ship, get a different ship



Solo ships in a Massive online game... something feels off don't you think?



hmmm so I have been thinking about it and like... if you change the mjd to mwd cap use, that would make bastion marauders pretty nice, bastion would be like omfg emergency switch when things go bad so you can get help, wouldn't that be better? plus mjd is useless in pve :( I m not going to do Pythagoras each time I want to land at a jump gate, that's asking too much -.-



I'd have to agree with you....

MWD bonus would be much better for a pve focused ship, while MJD would be better suited for something like former tier 3 bcs... Of maybe even remove the range bonus of bastion, give MWD bonus, and tier 3 bs's that get MJD bonus, as tier 3 bs's are more sniper focused
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#4567 - 2013-10-01 14:00:16 UTC
Lair Osen wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Let me explain why all this marauder concept is faulty.


1 These are combat ships that are not ewar ships neither remote repair ships. THat means their role is to DEAL DAMAGE.


2 Dealing damage is their primary work, a work they do as well outside bastion mode as in bastion mode (the meager range extension is almost irrelevant). THere is no reason why I would prefer new marauders to old ones, because they do damage same way while the old ones are way faster .


3 Bastion mode without damage bonus is a waste of an idea. Who would use dreads if siege only gave them tank?


4 The only way a bastion module with range bonus would help is if ccp changed the horrifically short 249 km lock range limit. IF we could lock things at 300 km, then this extra range would mean something tactically. But even then would be a minor thing.



5 Give bastion a 25% damage bonus and the ship magically becomes something that makes sense.


1 ... ok

2 To perform their role ships must be able to tank the damage they receive. with a 185% increase in tank they will be able to do this much easier. The 25% range bonus will also be a bonus to damage application in snipe setups, or can compensate for immobility for short range fits. (paragraph is referring to PvE)

3 If siege didn't give them more dps they would probably have a role bonus to increase damage. in this case they would still be used as there is no other comparable (isk wise) options for outputting such large amounts of dps in one ship. what you probably meant was: why siege if it only bonuses tank?
In this case, as is the case with marauders atm, people who fly them in fleets will have to be careful in deciding when to siege/bastion, as when facing small groups that can be tanked it will be an advantage, but when facing larger groups it will be a disadvantage.

4 WTF do you want to do from 300km away????

5 While a 25% dps bonus would be nice, it is not necessary.


2- Tankign more when you already have enough tank does not improve your performance. Its a waste.


3- As you said IF they did nto had they would need it. Fact remaisn they need extra damage to validade the usage of siege.

4- Just an extrapolation that the range bonus on those ships will put in some case syour optimal outside 250 km or very close to it, and that is not useful. As in more thank than needed, mroe range than you can lock is not a real bonus

5- The DPS would give a clear reason to use bastion. My vargur can already tank anything that I can do solo very very easily. Any activity that will use several ships its better done with logistics. THere is no reason to bring a battleship that can self tank more when that tank is already too much for solo activities and too small to tank an enemy fleet . It wil be simply stupid to use bastion on most of the time. THa tunless they give us somethign you can ALWAYS use.. DAMAGE


"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Lair Osen
#4568 - 2013-10-01 14:03:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Lair Osen
Ager Agemo wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
Ager Agemo wrote:
so a dominix is still better than any marauder for making isk, and for fleets? why is it so hard to just turn marauders into marauders and make them oversized HACs?

bastion is a death sentence in fleets, no one is going to use them on true fleets.


That's the point though.

They're intended to be solo ships, which makes them niche in pvp.

If you want a fleet ship, get a different ship



Solo ships in a Massive online game... something feels off don't you think?



hmmm so I have been thinking about it and like... if you change the mjd to mwd cap use, that would make bastion marauders pretty nice, bastion would be like omfg emergency switch when things go bad so you can get help, wouldn't that be better? plus mjd is useless in pve :( I m not going to do Pythagoras each time I want to land at a jump gate, that's asking too much -.-


Freighters, indys and exploration ships are all designed for solo use, get over it.

If you want something thats fast and high damage with a good tank, you already have HACs, T3s and Command Ships and Pirate ships somewhat. I don't see why the game needs another class like this.

MJD is great for PvE, especially where jump gates are involved, and snipey fits or range bonused bastion fits, since jump gates tend to put you in blobs of enemies and MJD allows you to instantly pull range and force enemies to come at you with no transversal.
It also makes it a lot harder to get your ship killed in PvE since you can MJD away from any pointing frigs.

EDIT: Also the MJD is actually the OMFG GTFO switch, allowing you to get away almost instantly regardless of pointing frigs. Anchoring yourself in place for a minute after your tank has been breaking is a terrible idea.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#4569 - 2013-10-01 14:05:28 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
Ager Agemo wrote:
so a dominix is still better than any marauder for making isk, and for fleets? why is it so hard to just turn marauders into marauders and make them oversized HACs?

bastion is a death sentence in fleets, no one is going to use them on true fleets.


That's the point though.

They're intended to be solo ships, which makes them niche in pvp.


They're hardly solo ships, they're much more like small gang ships.
Zor'katar
Matari Recreation
#4570 - 2013-10-01 14:09:39 UTC
Ager Agemo wrote:
Solo ships in a Massive online game... something feels off don't you think?

Not really. "Solo" doesn't have to mean "I don't want to interact with other players ever".
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#4571 - 2013-10-01 14:25:34 UTC
Ager Agemo wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
Ager Agemo wrote:
so a dominix is still better than any marauder for making isk, and for fleets? why is it so hard to just turn marauders into marauders and make them oversized HACs?

bastion is a death sentence in fleets, no one is going to use them on true fleets.


That's the point though.

They're intended to be solo ships, which makes them niche in pvp.

If you want a fleet ship, get a different ship



Solo ships in a Massive online game... something feels off don't you think?



hmmm so I have been thinking about it and like... if you change the mjd to mwd cap use, that would make bastion marauders pretty nice, bastion would be like omfg emergency switch when things go bad so you can get help, wouldn't that be better? plus mjd is useless in pve :( I m not going to do Pythagoras each time I want to land at a jump gate, that's asking too much -.-




Tank is never the OMFG emergency switch. It never saves you. Would be a wasteful resource. The time to get help for you get more help for enemy.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
CCP Ytterbium
C C P
C C P Alliance
#4572 - 2013-10-01 14:29:09 UTC
Random Woman wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Hey people,

We've been away from this thread for a while to let things cool down a bit.

With Rubicon coming to Singularity soon, we've decided to revert Marauders to the original design for now, as we want to see how they actually fare in practice within player hands before committing to the version 2 change.



Does that mean the mass increase in bastion mode is back too? Because that is the killer feature for me, it would make those completly useless ships rather nice for closing WHs.


No, there is no mass increase in Bastion mode anymore, even if you can't align or move when it is active.
Debora Tsung
Perkone
Caldari State
#4573 - 2013-10-01 14:32:51 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Random Woman wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Hey people,

We've been away from this thread for a while to let things cool down a bit.

With Rubicon coming to Singularity soon, we've decided to revert Marauders to the original design for now, as we want to see how they actually fare in practice within player hands before committing to the version 2 change.



Does that mean the mass increase in bastion mode is back too? Because that is the killer feature for me, it would make those completly useless ships rather nice for closing WHs.


No, there is no mass increase in Bastion mode anymore, even if you can't align or move when it is active.


So a Marauder in bastion mode cannot be bumped?

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

Fighting back is more fun than not.

Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#4574 - 2013-10-01 14:35:16 UTC
Questio to CCP Ytterbium.

How you guys intend to evaluate marauders in the test server when the largest issue right now is envisioning realistic tactical situations where the ship is worthwhile?

The theoretical numbers of the bastion mode are easy to run. The hard thing is to find situations where a marauder would be much better than a normal battleship. More in fleets (Even small ones) when logistics and Battleships are not vaslty superior to marauders?


The alrgest issue with the bastion proposal is that it adds OVERTANKING to PVE, that helps in nothing, and has very little tactical value in PVP (near to nothing since other more common options are far superior if yu want to keep your firepower alive.)

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Typhu5
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#4575 - 2013-10-01 14:35:47 UTC
Ager Agemo wrote:


hmmm so I have been thinking about it and like... if you change the mjd to mwd cap use, that would make bastion marauders pretty nice, bastion would be like omfg emergency switch when things go bad so you can get help, wouldn't that be better? plus MJD is useless in pve :( I m not going to do Pythagoras each time I want to land at a jump gate, that's asking too much -.-


I lol'd so hard.. O man... that is soooo true. XD
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4576 - 2013-10-01 14:48:55 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Questio to CCP Ytterbium.

How you guys intend to evaluate marauders in the test server when the largest issue right now is envisioning realistic tactical situations where the ship is worthwhile?

The theoretical numbers of the bastion mode are easy to run. The hard thing is to find situations where a marauder would be much better than a normal battleship. More in fleets (Even small ones) when logistics and Battleships are not vaslty superior to marauders?


The alrgest issue with the bastion proposal is that it adds OVERTANKING to PVE, that helps in nothing, and has very little tactical value in PVP (near to nothing since other more common options are far superior if yu want to keep your firepower alive.)



I expect them to see HEAVY use in high sec POS bashing.


Also, I just thought of something...

This is actually good for high sec mission corps...

Most of the time they don't fight wars because they either don't know how to pvp fit ships, or their afraid of losses.

It's a ship that could be used to counter these small war dec fieets that aggress easy high sec targets.

I mean, it may not happen this way, but it's a possibility.
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#4577 - 2013-10-01 14:54:31 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Random Woman wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Hey people,

We've been away from this thread for a while to let things cool down a bit.

With Rubicon coming to Singularity soon, we've decided to revert Marauders to the original design for now, as we want to see how they actually fare in practice within player hands before committing to the version 2 change.



Does that mean the mass increase in bastion mode is back too? Because that is the killer feature for me, it would make those completly useless ships rather nice for closing WHs.


No, there is no mass increase in Bastion mode anymore, even if you can't align or move when it is active.



I'm still a sad panda thinking of my Marauder skill being quite useless for pvp, I mean, there's nothing a Marauders offers to me for pvp I can't do it with a cheaper Battleship.

I want something special, not necessary a new role but something where my skill training effort justifies the acquisition and playing with a Marauder, and I still think the Bastion module training skill is not really a reward for all the training skills required to fit/fly those ships properly.

I don't want a solo powmobile nor a massive fleet of those burning all eden to the ground in a blink of an eye or titan bridge, I want something I take the risk to fly, move in to enemy lines and have a chance to get back or put the misery on them before I blow up in a magnific explosion.

ATM doesn't fit at all in my expectations and the only ships (T3) that actually aloud this are on the verge of receiving a huge hammer nerf beyond the ground when they don't need it anymore after latest changes to other ships.

:sad panda:

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#4578 - 2013-10-01 14:58:18 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
I expect them to see HEAVY use in high sec POS bashing.



Put so much effort in coding or whatever stuff to achieve this is a pure waste of time when there are better ideas or improvements to make it worth of more than that.

If it's really what's going to happen and what this ship will be worth of it will look to me like a fail concept.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4579 - 2013-10-01 14:59:36 UTC
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Random Woman wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Hey people,

We've been away from this thread for a while to let things cool down a bit.

With Rubicon coming to Singularity soon, we've decided to revert Marauders to the original design for now, as we want to see how they actually fare in practice within player hands before committing to the version 2 change.



Does that mean the mass increase in bastion mode is back too? Because that is the killer feature for me, it would make those completly useless ships rather nice for closing WHs.


No, there is no mass increase in Bastion mode anymore, even if you can't align or move when it is active.



I'm still a sad panda thinking of my Marauder skill being quite useless for pvp, I mean, there's nothing a Marauders offers to me for pvp I can't do it with a cheaper Battleship.

I want something special, not necessary a new role but something where my skill training effort justifies the acquisition and playing with a Marauder, and I still think the Bastion module training skill is not really a reward for all the training skills required to fit/fly those ships properly.

I don't want a solo powmobile nor a massive fleet of those burning all eden to the ground in a blink of an eye or titan bridge, I want something I take the risk to fly, move in to enemy lines and have a chance to get back or put the misery on them before I blow up in a magnific explosion.

ATM doesn't fit at all in my expectations and the only ships (T3) that actually aloud this are on the verge of receiving a huge hammer nerf beyond the ground when they don't need it anymore after latest changes to other ships.

:sad panda:



the odds of someone using a sub cap hull that costs as much as a capital in pvp is pretty slim anyway.
They're going to be alpha'd off the field quickly just cause they're a heavy isk loss...


Personally, i'm happy with what they're doing, even if it doesn't help their pvp effectiveness.
At least they'll be usable in other forms of solo pve, which they aren't now.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4580 - 2013-10-01 15:03:04 UTC
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
I expect them to see HEAVY use in high sec POS bashing.



Put so much effort in coding or whatever stuff to achieve this is a pure waste of time when there are better ideas or improvements to make it worth of more than that.

If it's really what's going to happen and what this ship will be worth of it will look to me like a fail concept.



there have been TONS of threads over the years asking for a ship that was good at high sec POS bashing.
Granted, most people wanted higher dps to do so.

However, having bashed high sec POS's myself, the hardest part about it isn't the incoming dps, but rather when they surround their POS with a bunch of jam/damp defense..

This will put pressure on those POS's, and all high sec POS's at that rate...