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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#4421 - 2013-09-30 17:22:49 UTC
Just think about it this way: Say you put 2b into a Vargur. 4guns/3neuts, mid slots for MJD and dual XLASB tank, low slots 3 damage mods, DC, TE. 1b for the hull and 1b for mods. What combination of ships that costs 2b can kill you? The only thing is a massive blob of cheap T1. Basically any gang in T2 or higher ships will never be able to kill you unless they both outnumber AND out-ISK you. That's the definition of broken.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#4422 - 2013-09-30 17:26:29 UTC  |  Edited by: MeBiatch
Xequecal wrote:
Just think about it this way: Say you put 2b into a Vargur. 4guns/3neuts, mid slots for MJD and dual XLASB tank, low slots 3 damage mods, DC, TE. 1b for the hull and 1b for mods. What combination of ships that costs 2b can kill you? The only thing is a massive blob of cheap T1. Basically any gang in T2 or higher ships will never be able to kill you unless they both outnumber AND out-ISK you. That's the definition of broken.



well one black bird will keep that vargur from locking anyone and once it goes to bastion mod then i would assume a few bombs will take care of this ship?

how many bombs would you need to pop a vargur in bastion mode?

or dreads in blappy mode... you wont even need hugnins cuss there is already 0 transversal.

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#4423 - 2013-09-30 17:28:51 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
Just think about it this way: Say you put 2b into a Vargur. 4guns/3neuts, mid slots for MJD and dual XLASB tank, low slots 3 damage mods, DC, TE. 1b for the hull and 1b for mods. What combination of ships that costs 2b can kill you? The only thing is a massive blob of cheap T1. Basically any gang in T2 or higher ships will never be able to kill you unless they both outnumber AND out-ISK you. That's the definition of broken.



well one black bird will keep that vargur from locking anyone and once it goes to bastion mod then i would assume a few bombs will take care of this ship?

how many bombs would you need to pop a vargur in bastion mode?


It's immune to ewar, you can't jam it.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#4424 - 2013-09-30 17:29:39 UTC
Xequecal wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
Just think about it this way: Say you put 2b into a Vargur. 4guns/3neuts, mid slots for MJD and dual XLASB tank, low slots 3 damage mods, DC, TE. 1b for the hull and 1b for mods. What combination of ships that costs 2b can kill you? The only thing is a massive blob of cheap T1. Basically any gang in T2 or higher ships will never be able to kill you unless they both outnumber AND out-ISK you. That's the definition of broken.



well one black bird will keep that vargur from locking anyone and once it goes to bastion mod then i would assume a few bombs will take care of this ship?

how many bombs would you need to pop a vargur in bastion mode?


It's immune to ewar, you can't jam it.


read again you will see i understand that in my first response.

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Zeus Maximo
Mentally Assured Destruction
#4425 - 2013-09-30 17:32:28 UTC
Kronos for PVP is once again deemed worthless.

No web = No advantage

"It is not possible either to trick or escape the mind of Zeus."

U-MAD Membership Recruitment

PoH Corporation Recruitment
Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#4426 - 2013-09-30 17:33:02 UTC
Xequecal wrote:
Just think about it this way: Say you put 2b into a Vargur. 4guns/3neuts, mid slots for MJD and dual XLASB tank, low slots 3 damage mods, DC, TE. 1b for the hull and 1b for mods. What combination of ships that costs 2b can kill you? The only thing is a massive blob of cheap T1. Basically any gang in T2 or higher ships will never be able to kill you unless they both outnumber AND out-ISK you. That's the definition of broken.

Is there a non-ASB fit that produces the same result? It's not the hull or bastion that's broken it's the ASBs. And I agree with you that a dual ASB fit Marauder is going to be stupid broken.

Shield Tanking - Why armor tanking can't have nice things.
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#4427 - 2013-09-30 17:34:15 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:

read again you will see i understand that in my first response.


They reduced the base sig to 360m, so if it has links you'd need at least 25 bombs, and that's if you managed to make them all simultaneously explode. If it gets boosts off you'd need even more.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#4428 - 2013-09-30 17:45:39 UTC
Iome Ambraelle wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
Just think about it this way: Say you put 2b into a Vargur. 4guns/3neuts, mid slots for MJD and dual XLASB tank, low slots 3 damage mods, DC, TE. 1b for the hull and 1b for mods. What combination of ships that costs 2b can kill you? The only thing is a massive blob of cheap T1. Basically any gang in T2 or higher ships will never be able to kill you unless they both outnumber AND out-ISK you. That's the definition of broken.

Is there a non-ASB fit that produces the same result? It's not the hull or bastion that's broken it's the ASBs. And I agree with you that a dual ASB fit Marauder is going to be stupid broken.


how about in bastion mode you can only have one active asb?

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4429 - 2013-09-30 17:52:24 UTC
Xequecal wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:

read again you will see i understand that in my first response.


They reduced the base sig to 360m, so if it has links you'd need at least 25 bombs, and that's if you managed to make them all simultaneously explode. If it gets boosts off you'd need even more.


Does it still get links in bastion mode?
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#4430 - 2013-09-30 17:56:54 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:

read again you will see i understand that in my first response.


They reduced the base sig to 360m, so if it has links you'd need at least 25 bombs, and that's if you managed to make them all simultaneously explode. If it gets boosts off you'd need even more.


Does it still get links in bastion mode?


does a dread in seige or a carrier in triage?

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#4431 - 2013-09-30 17:59:54 UTC
Kismeteer wrote:
Yeah, because the problem with eve was that level 4 missions were just too slow.

I have no idea why you are buffing empire missioning to such a large degree.

Lmao. I'm down in Fountain ATM making 100m to 500 mill per hour running combat sigs. Last one I did I got SS 425mm rail, Core B 100mn AB and 21 tier effects and your whining about missions in high sec getting buffed. These are good changes and really won't affect missioning at all when they're already very easy in Marauders anyway.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4432 - 2013-09-30 18:05:44 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:

read again you will see i understand that in my first response.


They reduced the base sig to 360m, so if it has links you'd need at least 25 bombs, and that's if you managed to make them all simultaneously explode. If it gets boosts off you'd need even more.


Does it still get links in bastion mode?


does a dread in seige or a carrier in triage?


If I knew the answer to that new question, I would of assumed the same thing to apply to bastion but I never used any cap ship so I ask the question.
Wedgetail
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#4433 - 2013-09-30 18:09:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Wedgetail
XLSB trip vampires and maybe an amp or cap booster, yeah it takes more fitting space but where's the 60 second dead in the water reload cycle? :) trade off is between a slightly lower rep amount for near unstoppable reps, running the XLSB keeps the cap low, so the vampires steal cap from the enemies, to feed more tanking..and if that isn't enough 10 second reload cap booster...


agreed dual ASB is not fun, one ASB onto BC's and cruisers isn't fun, hell XLSB sleipnirs and claymores were nasty enough.


a few pages back i noticed a comment regarding marauders being PVE only on their release - this is a grave and very common misconception, as well as the three groups comment about this ship's focus wanting to be skewed for one of three environments


they have bonuses that make them very easy to fit in PVE.

they have bonuses that make them good conceptually for incursions, (incursions being an AI driven PVP simulation)

they have bonuses and slot configurations that make them very good at PVP.


the reasons behind this misconception is due to the people using them, not the ships themselves.

marauders make the best remote repair battleships in game - so they were given weak sensors, but also a local rep bonus.
(and around the time, alpha maelstroms were a very big problem, ccp did not want tracking speed and fall off range given to a ship with 1400mm's and so the vargur was given 1/3rd the powergrid of a tempest)

this means that for incursions: you need not carry any logistics ships in the fleet, rather than the 8/2 dps logi rule you run 10/0
but it's not done because the PUG fleets that frequent incursions aren't comfortable with the idea, if infact it has ever occurred to them (tinkers are a pain to fly)

for PVP you need to use smaller ships and remote sensors to bolster the weaknesses of the marauder's line up - but you also have the choice to use logistics ships in place of RR modules for tank, and so can carry large amounts of energy warfare, which helps the battleships deal with tackle, cruisers and reducing energy weapon dps.


for mission PVE you have a local repair bonus for the attrition sites that PVE comprises of, as well as higher than average resistances to ease up on capacitor use a little.

all three benefit from the marauder's main focus of damage projection

and all but incursions benefit from tractor beams - wanna pull that cruiser your gang just killed to the gate fast so you can move on? tractor away lads!

it's never that the ship is only good in one environment, it's always that the pilots flying them only ever want to use em for one thing - creativity goes a long way on ship fittings.


additionally (@ ccp):

I will thank ccp for making another update, and I am glad you've chosen the least work intensive and lesser of two evils approach - but i will not congratulate you - your choices and handling of this particular situation have been much less than adequate and I will expect much higher standards from you in the future.

you've shown you're capable of better..your players are trying to help you and you are ignoring them for the path that best suits your own needs and preconceived ideas, and i cannot condone this...it is not a good enough standard for people in your position to hold yourselves to - and so i find myself feeling immensely disappointed by your conduct and apparent lack of effort*.

*your behavior implies no effort whether there was effort or not
Savira Terrant
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#4434 - 2013-09-30 18:13:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Savira Terrant
My feedback on those proposed changes is as follows:


Either iteration of the Bastionmodule is good enough for my requirements. I do not care much if I have better resists or the repbonus (well the resists do turn out a bit worse on my fittings giving up all of the repbonus, but it's adapt or die I guess), because either can work out the same way it does today even without the Bastion (which I won't use in lowsec, obviously).

I do like to see changes to the hulls themselves still though. Having used the Golem prominently I can only make proposals for that ship:

Please add a lowslot to the Golem, it desperately needs more versatility, for I can only fit either a dcu or one cpr, while not being able to add fitting mods without crippling my dps too much to be competitive to the other Marauders. Obviously, the Golem also desperately needs the TP-bonus and twoTargetpainters (some would argue even more I guess) and thus the midslots. And since the advent of the Noctis, I would like to argue that the Golem can rather do less with one of it's highslots, than one of its midslots if you would have to compensate for the proposed added lowslot ( at least everyone I know stopped using the Marauders for looting since the Noctis came along, if not earlier).


So please Ytterbium, Fozzie, consider to look at the hulls as a whole once more, to put them in a good state even if we would like to use them without the Bastion.

Thank you

.
Captain StringfellowHawk
Forsaken Reavers
#4435 - 2013-09-30 18:14:17 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Hey people,

We've been away from this thread for a while to let things cool down a bit.

With Rubicon coming to Singularity soon, we've decided to revert Marauders to the original design for now, as we want to see how they actually fare in practice within player hands before committing to the version 2 change. We will let you know if and when we move to version 2 again. We’ll most likely open a new thread when they appear on Singularity as this one has become quite convoluted.

That means:


  • Shield, armor and hull resists in Bastion Mode only
  • Keep the 37.5% tank bonus on the Marauders, no web bonus


We are also aware this won't please everyone here - regarding their comparison with Pirate Battleships, especially the Machariel, please remember we have stated many times Pirate hulls were due for a rebalance, with Angel Cartel being on the front line for tuning changes.

Thanks for your time.


Finally Good News. The Version 1 changes are actually what made me decide to Grab a few Marauders Again thinking it will no longer be an outperformed ship. Hopefully Version 1 gets better Fine Tuned then the Horrible V2 changes. A Tier 2 BS Should live up to the Description it holds in the Info Window. Not just reduced to Farming.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#4436 - 2013-09-30 18:20:49 UTC
Iome Ambraelle wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
Just think about it this way: Say you put 2b into a Vargur. 4guns/3neuts, mid slots for MJD and dual XLASB tank, low slots 3 damage mods, DC, TE. 1b for the hull and 1b for mods. What combination of ships that costs 2b can kill you? The only thing is a massive blob of cheap T1. Basically any gang in T2 or higher ships will never be able to kill you unless they both outnumber AND out-ISK you. That's the definition of broken.

Is there a non-ASB fit that produces the same result? It's not the hull or bastion that's broken it's the ASBs. And I agree with you that a dual ASB fit Marauder is going to be stupid broken.

Until it runs out of charges at which point it's screwed.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#4437 - 2013-09-30 18:27:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Lloyd Roses
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Hey people,

We've been away from this thread for a while to let things cool down a bit.

With Rubicon coming to Singularity soon, we've decided to revert Marauders to the original design for now, as we want to see how they actually fare in practice within player hands before committing to the version 2 change. We will let you know if and when we move to version 2 again. We’ll most likely open a new thread when they appear on Singularity as this one has become quite convoluted.

That means:


  • Shield, armor and hull resists in Bastion Mode only
  • Keep the 37.5% tank bonus on the Marauders, no web bonus


We are also aware this won't please everyone here - regarding their comparison with Pirate Battleships, especially the Machariel, please remember we have stated many times Pirate hulls were due for a rebalance, with Angel Cartel being on the front line for tuning changes.

Thanks for your time.


R.I.P. pvp marauder, it was nice thinking of you.
Round 1 was won by people that think shooting red crosses requires a dedicated shipclass.

:<


Xequecal wrote:
Just think about it this way: Say you put 2b into a Vargur. 4guns/3neuts, mid slots for MJD and dual XLASB tank, low slots 3 damage mods, DC, TE. 1b for the hull and 1b for mods. What combination of ships that costs 2b can kill you? The only thing is a massive blob of cheap T1. Basically any gang in T2 or higher ships will never be able to kill you unless they both outnumber AND out-ISK you. That's the definition of broken.



I promise you that an ASB vargur (solo) dies to a solo dramiel. Just as the OP Deimos I caught and needed help with cause incoming hostile rescueblob. (It died in the end, yielding a beautiful 2bil killmail/including pod)

Everything dies. ASB fits surely die eventually. Pls stop being bad.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4438 - 2013-09-30 18:29:11 UTC
To those saying these would be unkillable in bastion.

Not true.... sure, duel XLASB is very very powerful, but IMO both ASBs and AARs should be a 1 per item....

It's not a marauder issue, it's a module issue.


To those saying that the Golem shouldn't get TP bonus.

You're wrong... These ships are designed to snip with the bonuses.
A turret boat can hit a target very effectivly with low traversal.
A missile boat cannot.
The TP bonus is on there specifically to balance this...
Due to exp velocity issues of BS class weapons, they still have the same issues as turret boats when it comes to orbitting ships, not to mention they can outrun a missile or even the exp...I've seen missiles hit for 0 damage before... This is not an always hits situation.


The way these ships are... They can tank the world and outrange them as well.
However, get under their guns and all you have to do is outlast their cap or ASB/AAR reload..
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4439 - 2013-09-30 18:31:44 UTC
Oh, and CCP...
Assuming the tractor structure is worth a crap...

PLEASE PLEASE exchange the tractor bonus for something more effective...
Maybe salvage bonus, or something cool...
Maybe a new high slot modules of some sort just for Marauders.
(bastion is said to not be specific to Marauders eventually)
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#4440 - 2013-09-30 18:44:49 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
Maybe a new high slot modules of some sort just for Marauders.
(bastion is said to not be specific to Marauders eventually)


Ye, pls give an antibastionmodule (pvp-transformodulethingy (tm)), does little but t2 resists and +15 sensor strength flat. Thx.