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Drezen Tor

What is Dead May Never Die

Likes received: 5

#81 - 2013-09-28 19:41:06 UTC

For those of you asking why people are upset now, I think it goes something like this:

Previous prize giveaways where relatively low key. Some PLEX, relatively cheap unique hulls (IshuScorp), totals of around 15-100b, so forth. Nothing game-changing or rewriting. People are upset now because the original proposition were items of historical importance. That got people's attention more than the raw value.

Now that the items are replaced with less historically significant items, people started evaluating the overall fairness. There wasn't enough attention generated previously for people to care. Now people care and are considering the practice as a whole. Had CCP give out a dozen IshuScorps, people wouldn't be considering the inherent unfairness of the practice, the entire event would've flown under most people's radar.

This leads to the question of "If its unfair to hand out what amounts to trillions of isk to a player entity, why is it any different to hand out several billion?" It isn't inherently different, which is why the continuing rage. For me, that was the thought process, Anger at historical items -> Anger at amount of money giveaway -> Anger at all giveaways.

TL;DR Nobody cared before because the items weren't that tied into lore, bringing in lore items got people's attention, now people have directed that attention to the process as a whole.

James Amril-Kesh

Viziam

Amarr Empire

Likes received: 11,532

#82 - 2013-09-28 19:42:23 UTC

Herr Kutz wrote:

James Amril-Kesh wrote:

Herr Kutz wrote:

Eve is a game of ingenuity. Try using your brains and coming up with something clever, special or unique to make isk.

Or you could just be favored by CCP for sponsoring a massive player event and handed free stuff on a platter to give out to players regardless of which corp/alliance/Coalition they're in.

FTFY

You're forgetting the part where I'm forced to hand over ISK to this group in order to have a chance at winning any of these items, and the more ISK I hand over the more likely I am to win (more or less).

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

mynnna

State War Academy

Caldari State

Likes received: 3,900

#83 - 2013-09-28 19:44:53 UTC | Edited by: mynnna

Doc Fury wrote:

So, you don't see a trend developing here? You are not being involved in the important things.

If "not being involved in the important things" means "having the opportunity to provide meaninful, often feature-changing input on virtually every aspect of the upcoming expansion", then, yes, we're not involved in the important things.

Unfortunately, all the discussion and chats related to that input is hidden behind the NDA, and can only be detailed with CCP's permission. As a result, cases like this set the perception that we don't actually do anything.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal

James Amril-Kesh

Viziam

Amarr Empire

Likes received: 11,532

#84 - 2013-09-28 19:53:32 UTC

mynnna wrote:

Doc Fury wrote:

So, you don't see a trend developing here? You are not being involved in the important things.

Being asked to provide input on expansions is nice, but that's not what this is about.

We're discussing CCP's lack of respect for your role, since this is the kind of thing the CSM was created to prevent. This kind of thing shows that if CCP really wants to do something and they know the CSM will disagree, they'll just go over your heads and do it anyway, and deal with the backlash later.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Doomheim 2,352
Varius Xeral Doomheim Likes received: 2,352	#85 - 2013-09-28 19:55:56 UTC James Amril-Kesh wrote: This kind of thing shows that if CCP really wants to do something and they know the CSM will disagree, they'll just go over your heads and do it anyway, and deal with the backlash later. Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal

mynnna

State War Academy

Caldari State

Likes received: 3,900

#86 - 2013-09-28 20:06:30 UTC

James Amril-Kesh wrote:

mynnna wrote:

Doc Fury wrote:

So, you don't see a trend developing here? You are not being involved in the important things.

I don't believe this is what happened here.

I do believe many will think that fact simply makes me naive.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal


James Amril-Kesh Viziam Amarr Empire Likes received: 11,532	#87 - 2013-09-28 20:15:42 UTC mynnna wrote: I don't believe this is what happened here. I do believe many will think that fact simply makes me naive. I'm sure you have your reasons. Is it that CCP just didn't consider this important enough to run it by you? Because I'd believe that as well, which is what I think Varius is suggesting. Enjoying the rain today? ;)

arabella blood

Keyboard Jihad

Likes received: 288

#88 - 2013-09-28 20:16:02 UTC

mynnna wrote:

Doc Fury wrote:

So, you don't see a trend developing here? You are not being involved in the important things.

I have now come to a colclusion the NDA is what you CSM lazy guys use to explain you incompetence, un-awareness and most importa - impotence.

CSM: "we are doing SO MUCH, but we can't tell you about it"....
BEST EXCUSE EVER <3

Troll for hire. Cheap prices.

Doc Fury

Furious Enterprises

Likes received: 8,745

#89 - 2013-09-28 20:19:45 UTC

mynnna wrote:

Doc Fury wrote:

So, you don't see a trend developing here? You are not being involved in the important things.

You conveniently omitted the context of my post , I'll fix that so you can address it. The CSM's involvement in expansions is not relevant to this issue, but, uh, thanks?

Doc Fury wrote:

So, you don't see a trend developing here? You are not being involved in the important things. The stuff that really has the potential to ****-off the players and change the nature of the game you guys don't seem to ever be involved with. I do not blame the CSM for this, CCP uses you guys as the PR stunt they intended the CSM to be, and they probably do try to make you guys feel that you are involved and valuable.

I would remind you the reason the CSM was created (the reason given to the NY Times) was to help prevent T20-type malfeasance from happening again (via oversight) and to provide transparency to the players regarding what CCP is up to. This has yet to work as advertised. Do we really need a "representative body" that are treated as irrelevant by the organization that created it?

Also this:

Ali Aras wrote:

When we have been consulted on stuff that will **** off the players and change the nature of the game, to use your wording, it usually changes or dies on the vine. Those ideas never make it out of skype, internal forums, and the summits, and so the players never even see them to get pissed off. It's quite nice that Trebor posted his letter and CCP Pokecthulu's response here, because it's a chance for the community to see what our process usually looks like when we disagree with CCP actions, although obviously the writing is a bit more formal than normal.

Doc Fury wrote:

But yet, here we are... Again. CSM and CCP working in damage control mode after the fact, instead of avoiding it altogether because you guys were kept out of the loop.

What exactly is the CSM's purpose?

Maybe you can answer my last question? What exactly is the CSM's purpose?

☼

There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.

PotatoOverdose

School of Applied Knowledge

Caldari State

Likes received: 2,776

#90 - 2013-09-28 20:22:59 UTC | Edited by: PotatoOverdose

So, the underlying problem of providing advantages (such as enhanced ships) to exclusive third parties remains. This is still blatant favoritism. And CCP means to continue doing it. Roll

Seriously, if you want an "out," give somer blink and all subsequent promotions some pretty Nex clothing. Stop pissing in the spaceships sandbox, lest you repeat the mistakes of T20.

mynnna

State War Academy

Caldari State

Likes received: 3,900

#91 - 2013-09-28 20:36:30 UTC | Edited by: mynnna

Doc Fury wrote:

You conveniently omitted the context of my post , I'll fix that so you can address it. The CSM's involvement in expansions is not relevant to this issue, but, uh, thanks?

Doc Fury wrote:

Okay, let me answer the context of your post.

No, I do not see a trend developing here. I happen to believe that both here and with the TOS issue, there were reasons other than "We know we won't like the CSM's answer so we're going to just ignore them." In the case of the TOS I take the explanation (already there, and similar tweaks had brought them into the news in the past without comment so they didn't think it'd be any different here). In this case is more ongoing, so I'm not going to comment on it.

I also don't see how we're a "PR stunt" in this when we're as opposed to this as the rest of the playerbase is. Can you explain that to me? "PR Stunt" usually implies a desire to get good PR, and I'm at a loss for how "elected player advisory council created to serve, amongst other things, as a sounding board for developer ideas was ignored, is now publicly opposing something" is good PR.

arabella blood wrote:

Troll for hire. Cheap prices.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal

ISD Ezwal

ISD Community Communications Liaisons

ISD Alliance

Likes received: 4,696

#92 - 2013-09-28 21:09:37 UTC

I have removed a rule breaking post and those quoting it.

11. Discussion of forum moderation is prohibited.

The discussion of EVE Online forum moderation actions generally leads to flaming, trolling and baiting of our ISD CCL moderators. As such, this type of discussion is strictly prohibited under the forum rules. If you have questions regarding the actions of a moderator, please file a petition under the Community & Forums Category.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Prince Kobol

Likes received: 2,558

#93 - 2013-09-28 21:17:11 UTC

Kuni Oichi wrote:

Prince Kobol wrote:

Reyna Snoo wrote:

I imagine CCP is kinda confused as this isn't the first time they've given prizes to Somer to give away. For Somer's one quadrillion celebration CCP gave them 4 Collectors Editions and some Ishukone Watch Scorpions to give away using this same giveaway mechanic and nobody seemed to care about it then. Is it the large in-game value that makes this different?

Simply.. the goons didn't care :)

The only reason there has been such a storm is because the goons didn't like it this time round.

So you're saying that we do a better job of raising awareness of concerning issues to the rest of the playerbase than anyone else?

Thanks for the compliment, it's nice to know our efforts are so appreciated.

My pleasure, yet it still remains true.

Why didn't the goons go a forum spurge during the Q1 Celebrations?

What makes this time different from when CCP were giving away 4 Collectors Edition and Ishukone Watch Scorpions using the exactly same method?

Johnny Marzetti

Imperial Shipment

Amarr Empire

Likes received: 1,712

#94 - 2013-09-28 21:25:17 UTC

Herr Kutz wrote:

This is a pile of bull stirred up by a whiny bunch of self-important, overly entitled people crying that they weren't clever enough to make stupid amounts of isk.

If it was anything else, this would've come up during the Somer Blink 1Q celebration, which was publicized widely and showed on the front page that CCP had given prizes to Somer.

It didn't, so stop trying to make this something it isn't. In other words, STFU, wind your collective necks in , stop crying.

As I said in a post on TMC, this is really about the "change" to the ToS meaning that a certain selection of people are no longer allowed to scam in the way they previously thought they were.

Eve is a game of ingenuity. Try using your brains and coming up with something clever, special or unique to make isk.

Oh and just a point regarding trust:

Most of the whining is from a certain select group, let's call them "Scamming little b's" who are trying to cause trouble for CCP because they aren't allowed to scam in the way they used to.

Many of those are pointing to a well known website named after it's founder and shouting that it should also be given *things* to give out.

If you want CCP to trust you enough to believe you will give out prizes they donate, then don't build your bed from lies, cheating, exploiting and more lies.

Edit: Just for the record, I think reintroducing the Gold Magnate & G-Vex was a massive mistake and I'm pleased that CCP has changed the prizes. THAT is the only problem that this whole thing. The rest is just crying.

I guess they don't teach about socratic irony at the Imperial Academy, so when you're considering an alumni fundraising letter you might want to keep in mind just how ridiculous your failure to grasp it makes the rest of your blustering post look.

mynnna

State War Academy

Caldari State

Likes received: 3,900

#95 - 2013-09-28 21:25:35 UTC | Edited by: mynnna

Prince Kobol wrote:

Kuni Oichi wrote:

Prince Kobol wrote:

Reyna Snoo wrote:

Simply.. the goons didn't care :)

The only reason there has been such a storm is because the goons didn't like it this time round.

Comparatively speaking, the magnitude of the prizes. A few CEs and a handful of IWS is a far cry from several guardian vexors and a couple of frigates that are literally priceless.

Realistically speaking, nothing, although I'd be of the opinion that the prizes in question would be far more in line with the magnitude of things that CCP should hand out through this community engagement thing. That is, of course, provided that the policy David said they'd be writing allows the player or player group receiving the prizes to materially benefit from their distribution, which I'm pretty sure I'd be against.

Practically speaking, while I can't speak for other goons, I very rarely play Blink at all and didn't even know they were giving away CEs and IWS during the Q1 celebrations until it was brought up again more recently.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal

Alt Two

Caldari Capital Construction Inc.

Likes received: 137

#96 - 2013-09-28 21:32:05 UTC

mynnna wrote:

I also don't see how we're a "PR stunt" in this when we're as opposed to this as the rest of the playerbase is. Can you explain that to me? "PR Stunt" usually implies a desire to get good PR, and I'm at a loss for how "elected player advisory council created to serve, amongst other things, as a sounding board for developer ideas was ignored, is now publicly opposing something" is good PR.

If by "we're as opposed to this as the rest of the playerbase is" you mean "we don't care" then sure you are. I've spoken to one of you and he was completely happy just having the magnate and vexor switched out.

Sid Hudgens

Doomheim

Likes received: 182

#97 - 2013-09-28 21:32:56 UTC

I think it's kind of cute how everyone thinks CCP exists only to provide you all with an online universe that fits your unique personal set of rules.

CCP is a business. You are all trying to win EVE. They working on winning at life. They want the games they make to be successful because I'm sure everyone working at CCP likes to ... you know ... eat ... and have a place to live.

If CCP sees an organization that is helping to make their game successful by adding content, or providing publicity, or whatever the logical thing for them to do is to do what they can to keep that going. They need to strike a balance here so they don't alienate players, sure. But I think some of you need to realize that there are factors out here in the real world that effect CCP's decisions much more than your personal moral outrage.

"....as if 10,058 Goon voices cried out and were suddenly silenced."