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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Daenna Chrysi
Omega Foundry Unit
Southern Legion Alliance
#4221 - 2013-09-27 09:47:11 UTC
GeeShizzle MacCloud wrote:

So in that regard dont give bastion mode 'total' ewar immunity, just bump sensor strength of the ship to something trending towards 'effective' ewar immunity.


Now that would be a effective and viable option, subcaps should never be immune to ewar, harder to jam yes, but never immune.
Mole Guy
Bob's Bait and Tackle
#4222 - 2013-09-27 09:51:12 UTC
marVLs wrote:
No matter what You do with them until they wont have at least so much DPS as Pirate BS's they will be still useless...

Not only my opinion, today i was on coms with about 50peps, and they talk about it, and guess what? no one of them will use marauders because of lower DPS than Pirate and Navy BS's. That's sad but true What?


Marauders start to have more and more useless bonuses, like now tractor bonus (useless because of tractor tower comming in Rubicon). Nothing matters as much as gank.

when the geddon used to be a "geddon" and not a drone boat, i used to run a tracking computer scripted for tracking and a painter II. i used a burner to get then to fight me on a linear type field and they would run into my megapulse.
due to the sig radius increase, my tracking bonus and them chasing me, i would get excellent and wrecking shots A LOT. decimating the blood raiders i fought at the time.

now, we have a ship that can jump out 100km and snipe forcing the rats to run 100km into our lasers (no transversal) and we gain a 30% bonus to tracking and you guys dont think you're going to have better dps?
thats crazy. just because i cant write it out on paper doesnt mean it isnt going to happen. 120km mega pulse on a paladin.
as they close range, switch to a tracking script and REALLY start hitting wrecking shots. if they get in too close, switch to a farther out target until bastion is done and jump away. then, start the slaughter all over.

the torp golem is the one with the issues. all other ones are going to smoke npc's.
dont deploy in pvp unless you are setup for it.
1/2 your fleet jump 100km away from you and stick logi in the middle. they can reach both groups and you are at the optimal of the other group. if the bad guys are hitting group 1, group 2 can deploy and really start dishing it out. only go for 1 cycle at a time. then redeploy. if not, then no one deploy and the logi keep you alive. they still have the power of 10 large weapons...and a super tank with logi lubbin. no need to deploy all the time.
use when its best too...not every time.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#4223 - 2013-09-27 09:59:19 UTC
GeeShizzle MacCloud wrote:
i just wanna go on record saying that in my honest opinion, any mechanic design decision that end in:

'yahh just give it total immunity...'

is a f**king **** poor 3am, 'i dont wanna work i just wanna go home and get some sleep' decision that shouldnt be implemented in a serious sandbox style game like Eve Online.

So in that regard dont give bastion mode 'total' ewar immunity, just bump sensor strength of the ship to something trending towards 'effective' ewar immunity.



You clearly show that you do nto understan EVE. Ewar immunity measn you cannot DAMPEN, JAM, PAINT, or Tracking Disrupt the ship. ITs not simply ECM.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
GeeShizzle MacCloud
#4224 - 2013-09-27 10:17:40 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
GeeShizzle MacCloud wrote:
i just wanna go on record saying that in my honest opinion, any mechanic design decision that end in:

'yahh just give it total immunity...'

is a f**king **** poor 3am, 'i dont wanna work i just wanna go home and get some sleep' decision that shouldnt be implemented in a serious sandbox style game like Eve Online.

So in that regard dont give bastion mode 'total' ewar immunity, just bump sensor strength of the ship to something trending towards 'effective' ewar immunity.



You clearly show that you do nto understan EVE. Ewar immunity measn you cannot DAMPEN, JAM, PAINT, or Tracking Disrupt the ship. ITs not simply ECM.


well it just goes to show the state of ewar in its current form where by a designer has to blanket ban an entire subsection of 'interesting and combat intensive mechanics' to simply make something slightly viable.
Zendon Taredi
Tier Four Technologies
#4225 - 2013-09-27 11:24:57 UTC
Mole Guy wrote:
marVLs wrote:
No matter what You do with them until they wont have at least so much DPS as Pirate BS's they will be still useless...

Not only my opinion, today i was on coms with about 50peps, and they talk about it, and guess what? no one of them will use marauders because of lower DPS than Pirate and Navy BS's. That's sad but true What?


Marauders start to have more and more useless bonuses, like now tractor bonus (useless because of tractor tower comming in Rubicon). Nothing matters as much as gank.

when the geddon used to be a "geddon" and not a drone boat, i used to run a tracking computer scripted for tracking and a painter II. i used a burner to get then to fight me on a linear type field and they would run into my megapulse.
due to the sig radius increase, my tracking bonus and them chasing me, i would get excellent and wrecking shots A LOT. decimating the blood raiders i fought at the time.

now, we have a ship that can jump out 100km and snipe forcing the rats to run 100km into our lasers (no transversal) and we gain a 30% bonus to tracking and you guys dont think you're going to have better dps?
thats crazy. just because i cant write it out on paper doesnt mean it isnt going to happen. 120km mega pulse on a paladin.
as they close range, switch to a tracking script and REALLY start hitting wrecking shots. if they get in too close, switch to a farther out target until bastion is done and jump away. then, start the slaughter all over.

the torp golem is the one with the issues. all other ones are going to smoke npc's.
dont deploy in pvp unless you are setup for it.
1/2 your fleet jump 100km away from you and stick logi in the middle. they can reach both groups and you are at the optimal of the other group. if the bad guys are hitting group 1, group 2 can deploy and really start dishing it out. only go for 1 cycle at a time. then redeploy. if not, then no one deploy and the logi keep you alive. they still have the power of 10 large weapons...and a super tank with logi lubbin. no need to deploy all the time.
use when its best too...not every time.


The paladin today doesnt have to snipe, it can sit 10km from rats and use conflag + 14km web. It's 1400 dps applied to a rat that isnt moving AT ALL. Supremely efficient. Sitting at 100km requires scorch and that lowers your damage significantly. You also cannot use smart bombs at 100km, another thing that is very useful at 10km. I suspect this is a thinly veiled nerf to solo income.
chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#4226 - 2013-09-27 12:14:45 UTC
Hoping for a better justification for using marauders over faction and to better justify the additional train time... CCP announces a personal structure that will tractor and loot wrecks....

Tank nerf, speed nerf, mjd.

RIP vargur
The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
#4227 - 2013-09-27 12:34:03 UTC
Mole Guy wrote:

when the geddon used to be a "geddon" and not a drone boat, i used to run a tracking computer scripted for tracking and a painter II. i used a burner to get then to fight me on a linear type field and they would run into my megapulse.
due to the sig radius increase, my tracking bonus and them chasing me, i would get excellent and wrecking shots A LOT. decimating the blood raiders i fought at the time.

now, we have a ship that can jump out 100km and snipe forcing the rats to run 100km into our lasers (no transversal) and we gain a 30% bonus to tracking and you guys dont think you're going to have better dps?
thats crazy. just because i cant write it out on paper doesnt mean it isnt going to happen. 120km mega pulse on a paladin.
as they close range, switch to a tracking script and REALLY start hitting wrecking shots. if they get in too close, switch to a farther out target until bastion is done and jump away. then, start the slaughter all over.


You don't burn around in a laser BS with a AB to reduce transversal, that is a massive time waster(exactly the same nonsense was done artillery fittings till 2009) because it is super slow and ineffective. What you do is to fit enough tracking, range and dps to get the spawn targets done at range before you run into tracking issues.

Ofc you will have less dps than a ship that utilizes sentry's and xray/multi/conflag, at120km range the new puls paladin with scorch will only deal 75% of the dps of my navy apoc and 58% of my current Paladin. MJD for pve is only helpful for tanking some plexes, it gimps your dps.

Here is a small example how to utilize sentry's, puls and non brick speed in L4(1100m/s with mwd):
http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1306/New_NAPOC_Smuggler_Interception.mkv

The overall changes are still pretty bad, given they mostly gather around gimmick pvp applications, while not fixing the problems the current marauders have(what make them unpopular for pve and pvp compared to some pirate BS) and reducing her actual pve performance outside a hand full of niches.

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
Serenia Cadere
Bewahrer der Welten
#4228 - 2013-09-27 12:34:15 UTC
I'll take the T2 resists and the scan res bonus. The rest you can keep.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4229 - 2013-09-27 13:03:42 UTC
GeeShizzle MacCloud wrote:
i just wanna go on record saying that in my honest opinion, any mechanic design decision that end in:

'yahh just give it total immunity...'

is a f**king **** poor 3am, 'i dont wanna work i just wanna go home and get some sleep' decision that shouldnt be implemented in a serious sandbox style game like Eve Online.

So in that regard dont give bastion mode 'total' ewar immunity, just bump sensor strength of the ship to something trending towards 'effective' ewar immunity.



actually, ewar immunity is something that I brought up a long time ago.

Granted, when i mentioned it, it was for the base hull, and it was only npc ewar immunity.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4230 - 2013-09-27 13:07:49 UTC
Mole Guy wrote:
marVLs wrote:
No matter what You do with them until they wont have at least so much DPS as Pirate BS's they will be still useless...

Not only my opinion, today i was on coms with about 50peps, and they talk about it, and guess what? no one of them will use marauders because of lower DPS than Pirate and Navy BS's. That's sad but true What?


Marauders start to have more and more useless bonuses, like now tractor bonus (useless because of tractor tower comming in Rubicon). Nothing matters as much as gank.

when the geddon used to be a "geddon" and not a drone boat, i used to run a tracking computer scripted for tracking and a painter II. i used a burner to get then to fight me on a linear type field and they would run into my megapulse.
due to the sig radius increase, my tracking bonus and them chasing me, i would get excellent and wrecking shots A LOT. decimating the blood raiders i fought at the time.

now, we have a ship that can jump out 100km and snipe forcing the rats to run 100km into our lasers (no transversal) and we gain a 30% bonus to tracking and you guys dont think you're going to have better dps?
thats crazy. just because i cant write it out on paper doesnt mean it isnt going to happen. 120km mega pulse on a paladin.
as they close range, switch to a tracking script and REALLY start hitting wrecking shots. if they get in too close, switch to a farther out target until bastion is done and jump away. then, start the slaughter all over.

the torp golem is the one with the issues. all other ones are going to smoke npc's.
dont deploy in pvp unless you are setup for it.
1/2 your fleet jump 100km away from you and stick logi in the middle. they can reach both groups and you are at the optimal of the other group. if the bad guys are hitting group 1, group 2 can deploy and really start dishing it out. only go for 1 cycle at a time. then redeploy. if not, then no one deploy and the logi keep you alive. they still have the power of 10 large weapons...and a super tank with logi lubbin. no need to deploy all the time.
use when its best too...not every time.


/agreed
However, like I've mentioned, if you're using a torp Golem you're doing it wrong.
The buffs they made to cruise missiles last year made them outstanding.
You can do 1015 dps at 166km fairly easily.
And that's without bastion.
Archa4 Badasaz
Vangazhi
#4231 - 2013-09-27 13:20:19 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
Mole Guy wrote:
marVLs wrote:
No matter what You do with them until they wont have at least so much DPS as Pirate BS's they will be still useless...

Not only my opinion, today i was on coms with about 50peps, and they talk about it, and guess what? no one of them will use marauders because of lower DPS than Pirate and Navy BS's. That's sad but true What?


Marauders start to have more and more useless bonuses, like now tractor bonus (useless because of tractor tower comming in Rubicon). Nothing matters as much as gank.

when the geddon used to be a "geddon" and not a drone boat, i used to run a tracking computer scripted for tracking and a painter II. i used a burner to get then to fight me on a linear type field and they would run into my megapulse.
due to the sig radius increase, my tracking bonus and them chasing me, i would get excellent and wrecking shots A LOT. decimating the blood raiders i fought at the time.

now, we have a ship that can jump out 100km and snipe forcing the rats to run 100km into our lasers (no transversal) and we gain a 30% bonus to tracking and you guys dont think you're going to have better dps?
thats crazy. just because i cant write it out on paper doesnt mean it isnt going to happen. 120km mega pulse on a paladin.
as they close range, switch to a tracking script and REALLY start hitting wrecking shots. if they get in too close, switch to a farther out target until bastion is done and jump away. then, start the slaughter all over.

the torp golem is the one with the issues. all other ones are going to smoke npc's.
dont deploy in pvp unless you are setup for it.
1/2 your fleet jump 100km away from you and stick logi in the middle. they can reach both groups and you are at the optimal of the other group. if the bad guys are hitting group 1, group 2 can deploy and really start dishing it out. only go for 1 cycle at a time. then redeploy. if not, then no one deploy and the logi keep you alive. they still have the power of 10 large weapons...and a super tank with logi lubbin. no need to deploy all the time.
use when its best too...not every time.


/agreed
However, like I've mentioned, if you're using a torp Golem you're doing it wrong.
The buffs they made to cruise missiles last year made them outstanding.
You can do 1015 dps at 166km fairly easily.
And that's without bastion.


And what about defender missiles? 1 missile = -25% of damage...

Torp Golem has significant advantages in some missions (Damsel, Enemies Abound), but what is the advantage of Cruise Golem over CNR? Salvaging? with this new changes you get a lot more negative things for a cruise Golem: less speed, slower align, less drones, less cap. I'm sorry but if there is no Damage bonus or damage application bonus (explosion radius and velocity), then Bastion gives nothing and no bastion mode looses tank...
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4232 - 2013-09-27 13:30:13 UTC
Archa4 Badasaz wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
Mole Guy wrote:
marVLs wrote:
No matter what You do with them until they wont have at least so much DPS as Pirate BS's they will be still useless...

Not only my opinion, today i was on coms with about 50peps, and they talk about it, and guess what? no one of them will use marauders because of lower DPS than Pirate and Navy BS's. That's sad but true What?


Marauders start to have more and more useless bonuses, like now tractor bonus (useless because of tractor tower comming in Rubicon). Nothing matters as much as gank.

when the geddon used to be a "geddon" and not a drone boat, i used to run a tracking computer scripted for tracking and a painter II. i used a burner to get then to fight me on a linear type field and they would run into my megapulse.
due to the sig radius increase, my tracking bonus and them chasing me, i would get excellent and wrecking shots A LOT. decimating the blood raiders i fought at the time.

now, we have a ship that can jump out 100km and snipe forcing the rats to run 100km into our lasers (no transversal) and we gain a 30% bonus to tracking and you guys dont think you're going to have better dps?
thats crazy. just because i cant write it out on paper doesnt mean it isnt going to happen. 120km mega pulse on a paladin.
as they close range, switch to a tracking script and REALLY start hitting wrecking shots. if they get in too close, switch to a farther out target until bastion is done and jump away. then, start the slaughter all over.

the torp golem is the one with the issues. all other ones are going to smoke npc's.
dont deploy in pvp unless you are setup for it.
1/2 your fleet jump 100km away from you and stick logi in the middle. they can reach both groups and you are at the optimal of the other group. if the bad guys are hitting group 1, group 2 can deploy and really start dishing it out. only go for 1 cycle at a time. then redeploy. if not, then no one deploy and the logi keep you alive. they still have the power of 10 large weapons...and a super tank with logi lubbin. no need to deploy all the time.
use when its best too...not every time.


/agreed
However, like I've mentioned, if you're using a torp Golem you're doing it wrong.
The buffs they made to cruise missiles last year made them outstanding.
You can do 1015 dps at 166km fairly easily.
And that's without bastion.


And what about defender missiles? 1 missile = -25% of damage...

Torp Golem has significant advantages in some missions (Damsel, Enemies Abound), but what is the advantage of Cruise Golem over CNR? Salvaging? with this new changes you get a lot more negative things for a cruise Golem: less speed, slower align, less drones, less cap. I'm sorry but if there is no Damage bonus or damage application bonus (explosion radius and velocity), then Bastion gives nothing and no bastion mode looses tank...


I've flown missions and missile boats for years..
While defender missiles are annoying, they have never really effected my missioning.
Wedgetail
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#4233 - 2013-09-27 15:50:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Wedgetail
CanI haveyourstuff wrote:
imo ccp has lost their way with marauders.

I give up.


I really do have to agree with you on this point.... i was going to go back and attack the lump of iron again, but they seem insistant on this doomed idea they already have - hell the trolls in this thread have been providing them better rebalances , not to mention a few that have been really well compiled and gave the marauders something interesting to do (few of the dual mode bastions made the isk risk worth the versatility)

as it is for pvp i'll just use a maelstrom or tempest i'm not about to field a 1 Bn isk bait trap now they've gone and taken almost every useful flight tactic i could have used with it - i'm stuck relegated to 1400mm sniping just to keep the risk low enough to be worth the cost and for that I may aswell buy and fit 8 maels or tempests for the same cost, or better yet use lokis and muninns.


not amused ccp i'm really not, but i'll no longer waste anyone's time talking to people who've quite obviously made up their minds and deafened themselves as your team seems to have done. posting into these forums proposed changes is only ever any good if you actually listen to the replies, not just hear the noise of 'no change it' only to go talk to the opinions your own closed group....and not change anything - you've recycled the same four points ten times and achieved the same result with each, you'd think you'd try something else? please?

just seems to me each proposal you make is just a reshuffling of the one before, try actually adding and removing meaningful functionality points rather than just placing the same things in a different order and hoping we won't notice, all you're doing is giving us different forms of useless for these hulls -.-
Johnson Oramara
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#4234 - 2013-09-27 15:58:27 UTC
I wasn't too happy with the first iteration either but the second one was even worse...
Please don't force us to use the Bastion mode where if we aren't using it and locking us in place we are worse than T1 battleships in many aspects...

Also i'm not too happy with the MJD idea either, how is it going to help when i need to get the container or gate at 50km?

Some of my opinions might change when i get to try it on SiSi but my first impressions are that i'm better off in pirate or navy battleships compared to ship class that was known as THE pve ship.

Afterall we are talking about ship class that takes months and months to skill for and the almost 1b price tag isn't pocket change to many of us either.
Wedgetail
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#4235 - 2013-09-27 16:03:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Wedgetail
Johnson Oramara wrote:
I wasn't too happy with the first iteration either but the second one was even worse...
Please don't force us to use the Bastion mode where if we aren't using it and locking us in place we are worse than T1 battleships in many aspects...

Also i'm not too happy with the MJD idea either, how is it going to help when i need to get the container or gate at 50km?

Some of my opinions might change when i get to try it on SiSi but my first impressions are that i'm better off in pirate or navy battleships compared to ship class that was known as THE pve ship.

Afterall we are talking about ship class that takes months and months to skill for and the almost 1b price tag isn't pocket change to many of us either.



this is exactly what the result is going to be, the ship gets worse for PVE and worthless for PVP cuz it just won't survive, and RR out of bastion doesn't matter cuz with 800Bn brawlers or snipers you'll just take logis anyway they're better.

and not even going to start again on why no one will ever actually use bastion in PVP - they insist on giving us nothing, can only hope when they see the few marauders that are being used disappear this self absorbed team will start to listen... -=/
chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#4236 - 2013-09-27 17:50:20 UTC
marVLs wrote:
No matter what You do with them until they wont have at least so much DPS as Pirate BS's they will be still useless...

Not only my opinion, today i was on coms with about 50peps, and they talk about it, and guess what? no one of them will use marauders because of lower DPS than Pirate and Navy BS's. That's sad but true What?


Marauders start to have more and more useless bonuses, like now tractor bonus (useless because of tractor tower comming in Rubicon). Nothing matters as much as gank.


Agreed for the most part, the only situation where I could see settling for lower dps in pve is when gaining so much utility that isk/time increased even w/ reduced dps. Kinda tough to come up with something like that given these new structures.

Maybe something like:
Marauders have extremely precise offensive capabilities that are designed to destroy ships with with reduced dmg to the hull's components and cargo
Additional Role Bonus: drop rates are increased by x%
Narcotic Gryffin
Daedelus Ventures
#4237 - 2013-09-27 17:51:08 UTC
Just a thought. Many people are complaining about a useless tractor beam bonus, well to be honest I sort of agree especially with the revealing of those deployable modules yesterday.

I propose to switch out the tractor beam bonus with a bonus towards smartbombs either in effective damage or a small boost to range to hit anything in normal scram range. I only propose this to make up for the sudden cut in drone bay and bandwidth made dealing with upclose smaller targets more of a pain.

I'm well aware of the justification of sniping with the new range bonus however in PVE or PVP I dislike the 1 trick pony microjump drive since I'm damn sure there are some tackles who could close that gap before you got out of Bastion mode.

Summ it up:
-Drop Tractor Beam Bonus
-Replace tractor bonus with Smartbomb bonus (blast radius or damage amp)
-Increase Drone bay/Bandwidth to allow for full use of a set of Hammerhead II

I feel these would not overpower the Marauder and save it from some of the gimp parts of the proposed update.

http://www.sortius-is-a-geek.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/history-channel-hd-aliens-thumb.jpg
Sh0plifter
Underworld Property Accounting Partnership
#4238 - 2013-09-27 18:05:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Sh0plifter
Edit: ^ That above is a great idea for a replacement bonus for the tractor beam.

I like the idea of a mini-dead for the marauder. My annoyance with this though is it is not a dread. It isn't even similiar to a rorq or triage carrier. Adjust it into a ******* self-sustaining ship.

Get rid of "100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams" we have the noctis for this and the noctis will out do a marauder for much less training. Every person who does PVE on the regular has a noctis with at least skills to 4 across the board. Alot of dedicated alt characters for the noctis which is more than likely maxed. Which makes the marauder useless in this aspect. Just get rid of that bonus all together.

Put the "100% bonus to large energy weapon damage" bonus into the bastion module, like the dreadnaught, its damage boost comes from being in Siege. Then up the bonus to something respectable to make it worth "Bastioning" such as 225% with a T1 Bastion Mod and 250% with a T2. Furthermore, put the ******* tracking/velocity bonus into it. Again, making it worth it to put that ship into Bastion Mode to begin with.

"Extends all large turret falloff and optimal by 25%" & "Increases all large missile max velocity by 25%" - Explosion Radius.

"Increases shield and armor repair amount by 100%" - Reducing the capacitor needed to activate the cycle runs on the SB/AR as well as the cycle time by 20-25% would increase all forms of survivablity while in Bastion mode. I mean we are sitting there for 1 minute with no momentum so we are taking full damage hits off the NPCs/Players.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4239 - 2013-09-27 18:12:47 UTC
Assuming this tractor module is good, and not just a single, 20km range tractor, then I would not mind seeing marauders built with this in mind and getting a salvage bonus instead.
TheFace Asano
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#4240 - 2013-09-27 18:33:05 UTC
Archa4 Badasaz wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
Mole Guy wrote:
marVLs wrote:
No matter what You do with them until they wont have at least so much DPS as Pirate BS's they will be still useless...

Not only my opinion, today i was on coms with about 50peps, and they talk about it, and guess what? no one of them will use marauders because of lower DPS than Pirate and Navy BS's. That's sad but true What?


Marauders start to have more and more useless bonuses, like now tractor bonus (useless because of tractor tower comming in Rubicon). Nothing matters as much as gank.

when the geddon used to be a "geddon" and not a drone boat, i used to run a tracking computer scripted for tracking and a painter II. i used a burner to get then to fight me on a linear type field and they would run into my megapulse.
due to the sig radius increase, my tracking bonus and them chasing me, i would get excellent and wrecking shots A LOT. decimating the blood raiders i fought at the time.

now, we have a ship that can jump out 100km and snipe forcing the rats to run 100km into our lasers (no transversal) and we gain a 30% bonus to tracking and you guys dont think you're going to have better dps?
thats crazy. just because i cant write it out on paper doesnt mean it isnt going to happen. 120km mega pulse on a paladin.
as they close range, switch to a tracking script and REALLY start hitting wrecking shots. if they get in too close, switch to a farther out target until bastion is done and jump away. then, start the slaughter all over.

the torp golem is the one with the issues. all other ones are going to smoke npc's.
dont deploy in pvp unless you are setup for it.
1/2 your fleet jump 100km away from you and stick logi in the middle. they can reach both groups and you are at the optimal of the other group. if the bad guys are hitting group 1, group 2 can deploy and really start dishing it out. only go for 1 cycle at a time. then redeploy. if not, then no one deploy and the logi keep you alive. they still have the power of 10 large weapons...and a super tank with logi lubbin. no need to deploy all the time.
use when its best too...not every time.


/agreed
However, like I've mentioned, if you're using a torp Golem you're doing it wrong.
The buffs they made to cruise missiles last year made them outstanding.
You can do 1015 dps at 166km fairly easily.
And that's without bastion.


And what about defender missiles? 1 missile = -25% of damage...

Torp Golem has significant advantages in some missions (Damsel, Enemies Abound), but what is the advantage of Cruise Golem over CNR? Salvaging? with this new changes you get a lot more negative things for a cruise Golem: less speed, slower align, less drones, less cap. I'm sorry but if there is no Damage bonus or damage application bonus (explosion radius and velocity), then Bastion gives nothing and no bastion mode looses tank...


Fury Cruise do just about the same damage as faction torps. The dps difference is minute and application with a target painter is excellent. Torps have no compelling reason to use as they are slow and have horrible application. Rage torps are horrid for anything without dual webs and multiple tp's on the target. That paper dps is just that. They work on stealth bombers, otherwise you are better off using cruise on a bs than torps no matter what you are doing.

I fly a cruise missle CNR all the time. It is a wonderful ship. I haven't moved to a Golem because there is not a compelling reason to do so outside of saving isk on missiles (which the CNR is not expensive in that regard anyway). The target painter bonus would help a tad, but only on elite frigs which usually get one volley by my precision cruise anyway. The drones really are a non issue at 100km+, they really are only backup. That means it doesn't provide any added benefit dps wise or range over my current CNR setup as torps do not have the applied dps that cruise missiles do. The proposed versions won't as well. The added tank is not necessary for pve in my particular use. If I am doing anything under 50km is the only time I even take noticeable damage that a boost every once in a while won't take care of. I don't currently mission, but the CNR is going to be more attractive in most situations. That's ok in and of itself, so what is the Golem for? It needs a specific, usable role.


The Golem with cruise will do the same dps as the CNR at the same usable ranges, so no bonus there. The torp version doesn't really do a compelling amount of extra applied dps to even fit, and a Rapid Heavy Missile Rubicon fit will also do the same dps as the CNR, but at a greater distance. A possible niche for the Golem. Not sure if I want to fly one as slow as they are, but MJD'n all over the place seems fun.