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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4101 - 2013-09-25 16:07:15 UTC
Rroff wrote:

Just breaking into a house doesn't make you marauder, sieging a castle doesn't make you a marauder. Marauding is the practise of a sustained campaign of hit and run, looting and pillaging usually behind enemy lines though doesn't have to literally be as part of a war - it could be outlaws or even post the break up of the rule and law of a civilisation.

By the very nature of most of those tasks and the requirements of not being caught operating in a foreign or hostile landscape theres a requirement that the force be mobile, agile and to some extent fast moving.

I really really wish CCP would rename these away from being marauders and give us something more inline with the name of marauders as its obvious now that marauders was just a cool name slapped on a line of ships.



That is not in the definition, but is however, covered by the definition.

I had a list of definitions, but for some reason, I can't post with those attached definitions.
Just google Marauder definition.


Not one of the definitions specifies hit and run tactics.


However, to be exact, they more specifically refer to "attacking" and/or "raiding".
Neither of these two words specify hit and run tactics either.
You can "attack" or "raid" a castle.
The only thing specific to Marauders is that they are there specifically in search of loot/spoils/booty/whatever other word you want to use.


As Marauders are now, they easily fall under the aspect of being a Marauder by definition.
Players use them in missions specifically because of their tractor, salvaging, and cargohold.
They can loot and salvage while killing... I.E. a Marauder.

Actually, by definition, their use in PVP is less like a Marauder than their current PVE use.
This is because they typically aren't used to loot and salvage in PVP.

Therefore, they're more likely raiding/pillaging in PVP.
Very few players use them in PVP with their Marauding capability, but rather by-pass marauding for more utility.

So, IMO, if you want a hit and run ship, then CCP needs to create a new class of BSs that are Raiders or Pillagers.
They come onto the map specifically to destroy.. Whether this includes speed with hit and run tactics is up to CCP.
Bastion Arzi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#4102 - 2013-09-25 16:24:23 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
That is not in the definition, but is however, covered by the definition.

I had a list of definitions, but for some reason, I can't post with those attached definitions.
Just google Marauder definition.


Not one of the definitions specifies hit and run tactics.


However, to be exact, they more specifically refer to "attacking" and/or "raiding".
Neither of these two words specify hit and run tactics either.
You can "attack" or "raid" a castle.
The only thing specific to Marauders is that they are there specifically in search of loot/spoils/booty/whatever other word you want to use.


As Marauders are now, they easily fall under the aspect of being a Marauder by definition.
Players use them in missions specifically because of their tractor, salvaging, and cargohold.
They can loot and salvage while killing... I.E. a Marauder.

Actually, by definition, their use in PVP is less like a Marauder than their current PVE use.
This is because they typically aren't used to loot and salvage in PVP.

Therefore, they're more likely raiding/pillaging in PVP.
Very few players use them in PVP with their Marauding capability, but rather by-pass marauding for more utility.

So, IMO, if you want a hit and run ship, then CCP needs to create a new class of BSs that are Raiders or Pillagers.
They come onto the map specifically to destroy.. Whether this includes speed with hit and run tactics is up to CCP.


agreed, cant understand the confusion over this.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#4103 - 2013-09-25 16:35:05 UTC
NiteNinja wrote:


Dual medium boosters works great on a Golem. Or pulse the XL. XL's aren't designed for permarunning. Even larges. But you can work a dual medium (one perma running, second for backup for the higher DPS Epic Arcs).

Bastion will completely screw over the dual medium booster tank setup, beacuse if its like siege mode, Crystal implants won't affect it.

And off the quote, I read that they are trying to get 37km range torpedoes? I get that already with CN torps and a rig if I wanted to. 37km isn't long enough to compensate for the 100km jump from a MJD. Need at least 50km, to halve the difference between you and your target. Stock CN range with skills, is 31km. Plenty long enough for a MWD geared ship. I'm thinking scrap the whole Bastion, just make minor tweaks, and make Marauders like Heavy Assault Ships, up close and personal in your face DPS with better tank than T1 counterparts. Seems thats what the community can all agree on.

My Original Marauder Suggestions Post: http://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3556070#post3556070



I don't think anyone with two braincells to rub together wants marauders to be oversized hacs

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
#4104 - 2013-09-25 16:51:41 UTC
Guys, you can pretty much run HS L4s with a rusted wire coat hanger. The second iteration gives those hulls much more versatility, allows them the inclusion to fleet doctrines and revitalizes a ship type that was nothing more than a glorified red cross shooter of boredom.

And on top of that, they will still be better in PvE than now. What more would someone ask?
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#4105 - 2013-09-25 16:57:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Rroff
Joe Risalo wrote:

That is not in the definition, but is however, covered by the definition.

I had a list of definitions, but for some reason, I can't post with those attached definitions.
Just google Marauder definition.


Not one of the definitions specifies hit and run tactics.


However, to be exact, they more specifically refer to "attacking" and/or "raiding".
Neither of these two words specify hit and run tactics either.
You can "attack" or "raid" a castle.
The only thing specific to Marauders is that they are there specifically in search of loot/spoils/booty/whatever other word you want to use.


As Marauders are now, they easily fall under the aspect of being a Marauder by definition.
Players use them in missions specifically because of their tractor, salvaging, and cargohold.
They can loot and salvage while killing... I.E. a Marauder.

Actually, by definition, their use in PVP is less like a Marauder than their current PVE use.
This is because they typically aren't used to loot and salvage in PVP.

Therefore, they're more likely raiding/pillaging in PVP.
Very few players use them in PVP with their Marauding capability, but rather by-pass marauding for more utility.

So, IMO, if you want a hit and run ship, then CCP needs to create a new class of BSs that are Raiders or Pillagers.
They come onto the map specifically to destroy.. Whether this includes speed with hit and run tactics is up to CCP.


You (in a general sense) need to look at what it means to maraud before reading too much into the definition of a marauder. Inherent to the definition of marauding comes the requirement in the vast majority of cases of being able to avoid or evade the current law or force controlling the area. Which pretty much means by extension you need hit and run tactics in the majority of cases.

TBH tho its mainly the versatility (if your making something thats supposed to be a marauder in the true sense) that I have issues with which kind of means making something that is to some degree a tech 3 ship - to quote your post "Throughout history, Marauders have been used in many different situations." and so on with the rest of the examples you gave - being able to hit and run just one combination they need.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4106 - 2013-09-25 17:02:22 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
NiteNinja wrote:


Dual medium boosters works great on a Golem. Or pulse the XL. XL's aren't designed for permarunning. Even larges. But you can work a dual medium (one perma running, second for backup for the higher DPS Epic Arcs).

Bastion will completely screw over the dual medium booster tank setup, beacuse if its like siege mode, Crystal implants won't affect it.

And off the quote, I read that they are trying to get 37km range torpedoes? I get that already with CN torps and a rig if I wanted to. 37km isn't long enough to compensate for the 100km jump from a MJD. Need at least 50km, to halve the difference between you and your target. Stock CN range with skills, is 31km. Plenty long enough for a MWD geared ship. I'm thinking scrap the whole Bastion, just make minor tweaks, and make Marauders like Heavy Assault Ships, up close and personal in your face DPS with better tank than T1 counterparts. Seems thats what the community can all agree on.

My Original Marauder Suggestions Post: http://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3556070#post3556070



I don't think anyone with two braincells to rub together wants marauders to be oversized hacs


/agreed.

I personally was pushing for iteration 1, myself being a lvl 4 mission runner, for a few reasons.

1) I sit still in my bss when running missions anyway. My nightmare doesn't move until everything is dead.
2) ewar immunity... Duh.
3) range buff... This will help to make torp golem a better ship.
4) non-stacking omni resists. This is perfect because, as I've mentioned, Marauders have cap issues. More resists=less boosting/repping=less cap usage + double rep per cycle= even less cap usage.
5) MJD bonus is nice for snip fits.

Things I would like to see changed from iteration 1.

1) MJD range bonus, with marauder specialty of selecting jump range of no less than 50km.

2) immunity to cap warfare - this is due to the fact that they can't receive cap, so they shouldn't be weak against cap warfare.
All you gotta do to cap them out is apply enough pressure for long enough. That's like 2 minutes at most.

3) roll the omni resist bonus into the ship itself. Remove out of bastion t2 resists and/or rep/boost bonus. Also, apply this bonus only to their primary tank. IE.. Shield resists for the golem, and not all around resists.

4) tractor range bonus beyond what they have now. I would say the same range as the noctis is fair, and doesn't cut the noctis out, as the noctis still has a full 8 highs.

5) salvage bonus - the same reasoning as posted on 4.

6) lock range bonus when bastioned... No point in greater weapons ranges if you can't target anything out that far. Perhaps 25% as well. Would be around 140-150km.

7) remove the new 8th high and give an additional tank slot. IE. mid for golem.
This is because our tank slots are much more valuable than our utility highs, and bastion is a utility module.

8) make them instantly anchor when entering bastion. This means you can't be bumped, and you can't jump/warp until the cycle ends.

9) effects of bastion should take effect instantly, even during transformation. End of cycle transformation should begin before the cycle ends, and should finish right at the end of the cycle.
This is a bonus to everyone, letting you move right as the cycle ends, and also letting your opponent know to get in there, as your cycle is about to end and they need to catch you.

10) if you don't set the module to shut off, you do not transform, and your cycle repeats, just like any other module.. Thiseans you need to shut off the module before the transformation begins, or that you'll be stuck after the cycle still transforming without the bonuses.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4107 - 2013-09-25 17:07:00 UTC
Rroff wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:

That is not in the definition, but is however, covered by the definition.

I had a list of definitions, but for some reason, I can't post with those attached definitions.
Just google Marauder definition.


Not one of the definitions specifies hit and run tactics.


However, to be exact, they more specifically refer to "attacking" and/or "raiding".
Neither of these two words specify hit and run tactics either.
You can "attack" or "raid" a castle.
The only thing specific to Marauders is that they are there specifically in search of loot/spoils/booty/whatever other word you want to use.


As Marauders are now, they easily fall under the aspect of being a Marauder by definition.
Players use them in missions specifically because of their tractor, salvaging, and cargohold.
They can loot and salvage while killing... I.E. a Marauder.

Actually, by definition, their use in PVP is less like a Marauder than their current PVE use.
This is because they typically aren't used to loot and salvage in PVP.

Therefore, they're more likely raiding/pillaging in PVP.
Very few players use them in PVP with their Marauding capability, but rather by-pass marauding for more utility.

So, IMO, if you want a hit and run ship, then CCP needs to create a new class of BSs that are Raiders or Pillagers.
They come onto the map specifically to destroy.. Whether this includes speed with hit and run tactics is up to CCP.


You (in a general sense) need to look at what it means to maraud before reading too much into the definition of a marauder. Inherent to the definition of marauding comes the requirement in the vast majority of cases of being able to avoid or evade the current law or force controlling the area. Which pretty much means by extension you need hit and run tactics in the majority of cases.

TBH tho its mainly the versatility (if your making something thats supposed to be a marauder in the true sense) that I have issues with which kind of means making something that is to some degree a tech 3 ship - to quote your post "Throughout history, Marauders have been used in many different situations." and so on with the rest of the examples you gave - being able to hit and run just one combination they need.


That is kinda my point, but not entirely.
A Marauder is there specifically for loot, reguardless of the tactics used.
If you're not looting, you're not by definition, a marauder.
Hence why I specified a new class called raiders or pillagers.
Sure, marauders will still have the capability to attack and defend without looting, but that would be a niche situation, and not specific to their class or design goals.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#4108 - 2013-09-25 17:18:25 UTC
The Winter announcement is tomorrow, so I guess we should expect iteration 2 to be final?

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#4109 - 2013-09-25 17:50:10 UTC  |  Edited by: chaosgrimm
IMO, I could care less if the changes synergize with the definition of marauder, and don't think the type of rebalance should be made solely to match the class name.

However, I wouldn't be supportive of changes that otherwise negatively alter the play style of those already using it.

This being said, outside of bastion mode, I don't like the nerf to speed, tank, and drones. I hardly see why a mjd bonus should justify a reduction in effectiveness of other prop mods, esp for those who have no / limited intentions of using mjds.

Changes I think would be cool:

= Utility =
I'm not a PvP guy, but I don't think that increasing the utility effectiveness would impact the PvP world all that much. I'd like things along the lines of:
* 200% tractor bonus (max of 72km rng with t2, still less than noctis at 96? I believe)
* I'm liking the extra utility high
* some sort of salvage bonus would be cool
* ability to accept + complete missions remotely (except those with mission items provided the mission item isn't already in the correct hanger)
* specialty bay for mins and salvage mats + ability to reprocess in space


= Bastion Module =
I don't think it currently provides enough return for the drawbacks. A dmg bonus would be nice.

Alternatively, I would support exchanging the 100% decrease in movement + increased tank for an increase in movement and decrease in tank.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#4110 - 2013-09-25 18:36:49 UTC
Bertrand Butler wrote:
Guys, you can pretty much run HS L4s with a rusted wire coat hanger. The second iteration gives those hulls much more versatility, allows them the inclusion to fleet doctrines and revitalizes a ship type that was nothing more than a glorified red cross shooter of boredom.

And on top of that, they will still be better in PvE than now. What more would someone ask?


Its a ship with a special role that cannot move yet is getting close range weapon systems.

It doesn't work.
Shivanthar
#4111 - 2013-09-25 18:59:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Shivanthar
Rroff wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:


Please, find me a definition ANYWHERE that specifies that Marauders are a fast moving force.
Well, at least anywhere apart from writing your own definition.

Throughout history, Marauders have been used in many different situations.
They've been used as hit and run tactics to steal valuables to try and shut down their opponents supply lines.
They've been used in castle sieges.
They've been used to raise villages, including slaughtering the people.

By definition, anyone who enters somewhere in search of loot or booty is a Marauder.

I can break into your house, and I am a Marauder.
I can rob a bank, and I am a Marauder.
I can siege FT Knox, and I am a Marauder.

All of these require different speeds and tactics, and the last actually would require heavy armor and vehicles.
This isn't exactly fast, but it's still Marauding.


And yes, if I come to your castle with the intent of looting, then reguardless of what weapons I bring to get into your castle, I am still a Marauder... Even if I bring a trebuchet..


Just breaking into a house doesn't make you marauder, sieging a castle doesn't make you a marauder. Marauding is the practise of a sustained campaign of hit and run, looting and pillaging usually behind enemy lines though doesn't have to literally be as part of a war - it could be outlaws or even post the break up of the rule and law of a civilisation.

By the very nature of most of those tasks and the requirements of not being caught operating in a foreign or hostile landscape theres a requirement that the force be mobile, agile and to some extent fast moving.

I really really wish CCP would rename these away from being marauders and give us something more inline with the name of marauders as its obvious now that marauders was just a cool name slapped on a line of ships.


Sometimes I really wish that English would be my native language. Or at least someone who can express his ideas better. It was all of me, but you mate, you became my mouth.

_Half _the lies they tell about me **aren't **true.
Sigras
Conglomo
#4112 - 2013-09-25 19:14:16 UTC
Shivanthar wrote:
Sigras wrote:

Who on earth said you HAD to use bastion mode for PvP? If you're stupid enough to dorp into bastion mode in that situation you deserve to lose your ship.


- Of course you don't have to, but why it is there? I think it is introduced just because to give marauders a pvp ability. Am I wrong?

yes, you are wrong, it is introduced to give marauders more options in PvP not to be used every time for PvP.

You're looking at marauders as a dreadnought where there is basically no reason to fly it unless you go into siege. Im seeing them as carriers . . . sometimes its right to go into triage; sometimes it makes your ship a flying coffin you have to use your brain to determine which kind of situation this is.

Shivanthar wrote:
- For pve, since shield boost bonus is now gone, wouldn't it be harder for a mission runner ship to run missions?
- For pvp, you fit mwd, and then mjd. Let me guess there is also a webber since there is a web bonus and a cap booster. There is a *chance* that you can transform into bastion or using mjd will take you out of logi range, so you also got a shield booster there. Now you got only one slot to fit resist module. You've got no shield boost bonus. Unless you transform into bastion, you don't get your resists. Oh forgot warp disruption. Webbed guy ran off. Oh, forget the web, put a warp disruptor, but a needles web bonus? Put both, you have no resist before transform. See what I am arguing about? Not well designed for any situation. I love to use sentence "you will be dead yesterday", which suits well here. With a price tag of billions, something is not fitting in this scene.

clearly you have never flown a 100 km zealot sniper fleet . . . Range is your tank in those instances and so is speed. Now the zealots are strictly faster than the marauders but the marauders have a GTFO button that the zealots dont have; theyre called incomperables.

Shivanthar wrote:
We are on the same side, but you're looking from a different angle.

- I don't want to fit MJD for sure. But my shield boost bonus is gone, I really need to get away. I was arguing with some other people about mjd usage and why I shouldn't use it. That was the point I was arguing. I don't want it. I am also arguing it is so needless on a Marauder that bonus "slot" shouldn't be wasted with mjd.

- This is a Marauder rebalancing thread, so I'm arguing about bonuses, which is perfectly normal for here. The case "why should I fit" or "why shouldn't" I fit is another subject. Again, I'm just proposing that something more relevant to mission runners instead of mjd bonus. There are ships already you can do better with mjd, in case your dominix example is also used by me in previous posts. Taking off shield boost bonus means "don't be in heat of battle from now on, you have to get away with that ship". Which also means "you are sniper from now on"

why do you need to get away? all you need is a 600-700 DPS tank to do any level 4 mission . . . and it doesnt even need to be perma run. That was my original criticism of your post. If your marauder cant just sit in the middle of any level 4 and tank while you blow stuff up youre either incompetent or need to do some more skill training.

I dont have a boost bonus for armor or shields and I dont run away in missions either, I just sit and tank until everything around me is dead; yes I am running a deadspace armor repairer, but it costs less than 300 million meaning less than a marauder anyway and with no other faction mods on my ship, im hardly a loot pinata

Shivanthar wrote:
- Fleet for lvl 4 missions? Effectiveness? Man, this is not job to be done. This is a game. I'm here to have fun. The time when you run Serpentis Extravaganza for 1000th time, you will start looking for variations. I was just enjoying with my friends. This is the way I enjoy the game. Blacks and whites here. Not a good subject to argue about.

See I dont run missions for fun usually. Usually I run level 4 missions so I can afford to do the things that are fun. Therefore anything that reduces my effectiveness in missions means more time doing something that isnt fun in order to get to do what I want.
Sigras
Conglomo
#4113 - 2013-09-25 19:17:48 UTC
Shivanthar wrote:
"you are having trouble tanking level 4s in a vargur"
- I've never said this. However, I said that anyone will be in trouble when:
a- When the boost bonus is gone in conjunction with;
b- Maintaining close combat with fireworks exploding around.

You have to get away with the new ship design. That was my problem. This is the Nth time I'm telling this. There are ships where you can snipe, and as your Dominix where you station in 100km away and drop sentries. Their playstyle is good for their role, why put marauders in that style?

Proposed changes doesn't reflect PvE playstyle for marauders. I don't know if I could show the point.

As you probably read earlier, I dont snipe with my dominix in fact at most points im sitting at 0 m/s taking full damage from everything. If any battleship has trouble tanking a level 4 sitting in one spot then you're either doing something wrong, not doing enough damage, or are an idiot.
Sigras
Conglomo
#4114 - 2013-09-25 19:21:32 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
The Winter announcement is tomorrow, so I guess we should expect iteration 2 to be final?

I disagree, the winter announcement could be as simple as announcing the theme of the winter expansion not anything so specific as that.
NiteNinja
Doomheim
#4115 - 2013-09-25 19:55:22 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
NiteNinja wrote:


Dual medium boosters works great on a Golem. Or pulse the XL. XL's aren't designed for permarunning. Even larges. But you can work a dual medium (one perma running, second for backup for the higher DPS Epic Arcs).

Bastion will completely screw over the dual medium booster tank setup, beacuse if its like siege mode, Crystal implants won't affect it.

And off the quote, I read that they are trying to get 37km range torpedoes? I get that already with CN torps and a rig if I wanted to. 37km isn't long enough to compensate for the 100km jump from a MJD. Need at least 50km, to halve the difference between you and your target. Stock CN range with skills, is 31km. Plenty long enough for a MWD geared ship. I'm thinking scrap the whole Bastion, just make minor tweaks, and make Marauders like Heavy Assault Ships, up close and personal in your face DPS with better tank than T1 counterparts. Seems thats what the community can all agree on.

My Original Marauder Suggestions Post: http://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3556070#post3556070


What are you trading to fit that second booster? resists, cap boost, or target painters?

The other question is, what would you be willing to give up in order to fit a MJD?
If you say nothing, this is exactly why I suggest 8 mid slots.



The problem with making Marauders in your face brawlers is part of what I mentioned... They don't have the cap to brawl, they don't have the speed to brawl, and their sig is way too big to brawl.

The last thing you wanna do is take a massive ship and attempt to fight a smaller ship close up and personal.
Even if you have the most dps, it probably won't matter.


P.S. = Did they revert the range nerf of Javelin torps at some point in the last year? Or do I have a crappy version of EFT that's still telling me 65km with Javelins?


Well my current fit (general module named applies, and we all know its officer/deadspace/faction, right?)

Highs: 4x Torpedo Launcher, 3x Tractor Beam
Mids: 2x Medium Shield Booster, 2x Invuln Fields, 2x Target Painters, 1x 100mn MWD
Lows: 4x Ballistic Controls
Rigs: Rigor, Semiconductor Memory Cell
Drones: 10x Salvage Drone, 5x Hobgoblins

If we did the bastion update, simply I'd just drop the MWD for a MJD, since they essentially use the same fitting requirements, no real sense in dual propulsion Golem. But MJD would brick that fit, and losing the 7.5% per level shield boost bonus will brick the dual medium boosters from being able to tank effectively (even with the higher resists), so the only real way to run the dual medium setup is in Bastion mode, which with the bad torpedo range would make me turn it into a cruise missile ship, and lose my 1703.1 dps setup.

I would however, not by any means fit a webber, even if its bonused. Painters are more effective than webbers on a Golem because painter range is far superior, and the painter can make an assault frigate's butt look pretty big too.
Shivanthar
#4116 - 2013-09-25 20:22:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Shivanthar
Sigras wrote:

yes, you are wrong, it is introduced to give marauders more options in PvP not to be used every time for PvP.


So, what I was telling is exactly same, we are arguing nonsense here. I said "give an ability for pvp", you say "for more options".

Sigras wrote:

You're looking at marauders as a dreadnought where there is basically no reason to fly it unless you go into siege. Im seeing them as carriers . . . sometimes its right to go into triage; sometimes it makes your ship a flying coffin you have to use your brain to determine which kind of situation this is.


I'm not looking as anything, I always use Marauder in this game. Always. I just try(hope) to say it becomes less desirable in sit &combat or dive & combat because of the lesser boost amount.


Sigras wrote:

clearly you have never flown a 100 km zealot sniper fleet . . . Range is your tank in those instances and so is speed. Now the zealots are strictly faster than the marauders but the marauders have a GTFO button that the zealots dont have; theyre called incomperables.


No I haven't been in zealot fleet. However, I have been in fly-by fleets couple times. I am against the idea for Marauders to turn "range" into type of "tank". There are ships for that already.

Sigras wrote:

why do you need to get away? all you need is a 600-700 DPS tank to do any level 4 mission . . . and it doesnt even need to be perma run. That was my original criticism of your post. If your marauder cant just sit in the middle of any level 4 and tank while you blow stuff up youre either incompetent or need to do some more skill training.


"SIT&TANK EVERY level four in a 600-700dps pulse tank fit". This claim is much bigger than anything else I've been trying to argue.

No, I strongly disagree. You're talking on the paper, but in practice it doesn't work that way. You cannot sit& tank in that fit on "every level 4 mission". Words came from your mouth anyway. I simply call this trolling unless you prove me wrong.

If you are not trolling very hard, I challenge you to get a marauder or even better, a vargur, since it is the ship I've been using, make its fit for 600-700dps pulse (remember "not have to be a perma" ?) tank. Take videos of these missions in random order, in the game's current state by doing sit&tank:

- Gone Berserk: Sounds easy? :)
- Buzz kill: Sounds easy?
- World's collide: all rooms except initial room. Simply finish mission by sit&tank.
- Dread pirate scarlett: last room.
- Angel extravaganza: bonus room.
- And I really love to see "Cargo Delivery" without blitzing. Get the Cargo and sit&tank :P Nice bounty tough.

Come back here in one piece, so I will admit I am incompetent. But m8, you really have to sit and tank! with your "600-700 dps" pulse fit without sacrificing extreme playtime on a mission. I challenge you!

Without exploding even once, If you do it with a Vargur (or with any marauder) with your proposed fit of max 600-700 dps pulse tank fit, I promise in front of everyone that I will give you my Typhoon fleet issue & fully fitted for sentry drones & ready to fly in-game. (Just please don't tell me you cannot fly marauders, that would be gross after all this talking.)

Otherwise, I really hate people trolling about something they actually don't do but claiming it to be true.
600-700dps pulse sit&tank every level 4 mission... meh...

Edit: I see 2-3 big explosions following a pod running away there if you're competent as much as you claim to be... Otherwise, that number is at least 4.

_Half _the lies they tell about me **aren't **true.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4117 - 2013-09-25 21:22:33 UTC
NiteNinja wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
NiteNinja wrote:


Dual medium boosters works great on a Golem. Or pulse the XL. XL's aren't designed for permarunning. Even larges. But you can work a dual medium (one perma running, second for backup for the higher DPS Epic Arcs).

Bastion will completely screw over the dual medium booster tank setup, beacuse if its like siege mode, Crystal implants won't affect it.

And off the quote, I read that they are trying to get 37km range torpedoes? I get that already with CN torps and a rig if I wanted to. 37km isn't long enough to compensate for the 100km jump from a MJD. Need at least 50km, to halve the difference between you and your target. Stock CN range with skills, is 31km. Plenty long enough for a MWD geared ship. I'm thinking scrap the whole Bastion, just make minor tweaks, and make Marauders like Heavy Assault Ships, up close and personal in your face DPS with better tank than T1 counterparts. Seems thats what the community can all agree on.

My Original Marauder Suggestions Post: http://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3556070#post3556070


What are you trading to fit that second booster? resists, cap boost, or target painters?

The other question is, what would you be willing to give up in order to fit a MJD?
If you say nothing, this is exactly why I suggest 8 mid slots.



The problem with making Marauders in your face brawlers is part of what I mentioned... They don't have the cap to brawl, they don't have the speed to brawl, and their sig is way too big to brawl.

The last thing you wanna do is take a massive ship and attempt to fight a smaller ship close up and personal.
Even if you have the most dps, it probably won't matter.


P.S. = Did they revert the range nerf of Javelin torps at some point in the last year? Or do I have a crappy version of EFT that's still telling me 65km with Javelins?


Well my current fit (general module named applies, and we all know its officer/deadspace/faction, right?)

Highs: 4x Torpedo Launcher, 3x Tractor Beam
Mids: 2x Medium Shield Booster, 2x Invuln Fields, 2x Target Painters, 1x 100mn MWD
Lows: 4x Ballistic Controls
Rigs: Rigor, Semiconductor Memory Cell
Drones: 10x Salvage Drone, 5x Hobgoblins

If we did the bastion update, simply I'd just drop the MWD for a MJD, since they essentially use the same fitting requirements, no real sense in dual propulsion Golem. But MJD would brick that fit, and losing the 7.5% per level shield boost bonus will brick the dual medium boosters from being able to tank effectively (even with the higher resists), so the only real way to run the dual medium setup is in Bastion mode, which with the bad torpedo range would make me turn it into a cruise missile ship, and lose my 1703.1 dps setup.

I would however, not by any means fit a webber, even if its bonused. Painters are more effective than webbers on a Golem because painter range is far superior, and the painter can make an assault frigate's butt look pretty big too.


Agreed on the webber part.
Also, bastion gives a 25% bonus to torp range, so while you would be stationary, javelin torps should be able to easily hit any mission npc by the time they get into orbit range.

However, there is no way in hell that you have 1700 dps.
Even with a full flight of light drones, dual t2 damage rig (which is impossible), some insanely expensive ballistic controls, and max skills - it would still be impossible to get this much dps out of a torp golem.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4118 - 2013-09-25 21:25:31 UTC
Shivanthar wrote:
Sigras wrote:

yes, you are wrong, it is introduced to give marauders more options in PvP not to be used every time for PvP.


So, what I was telling is exactly same, we are arguing nonsense here. I said "give an ability for pvp", you say "for more options".

Sigras wrote:

You're looking at marauders as a dreadnought where there is basically no reason to fly it unless you go into siege. Im seeing them as carriers . . . sometimes its right to go into triage; sometimes it makes your ship a flying coffin you have to use your brain to determine which kind of situation this is.


I'm not looking as anything, I always use Marauder in this game. Always. I just try(hope) to say it becomes less desirable in sit &combat or dive & combat because of the lesser boost amount.


Sigras wrote:

clearly you have never flown a 100 km zealot sniper fleet . . . Range is your tank in those instances and so is speed. Now the zealots are strictly faster than the marauders but the marauders have a GTFO button that the zealots dont have; theyre called incomperables.


No I haven't been in zealot fleet. However, I have been in fly-by fleets couple times. I am against the idea for Marauders to turn "range" into type of "tank". There are ships for that already.

Sigras wrote:

why do you need to get away? all you need is a 600-700 DPS tank to do any level 4 mission . . . and it doesnt even need to be perma run. That was my original criticism of your post. If your marauder cant just sit in the middle of any level 4 and tank while you blow stuff up youre either incompetent or need to do some more skill training.


"SIT&TANK EVERY level four in a 600-700dps pulse tank fit". This claim is much bigger than anything else I've been trying to argue.

No, I strongly disagree. You're talking on the paper, but in practice it doesn't work that way. You cannot sit& tank in that fit on "every level 4 mission". Words came from your mouth anyway. I simply call this trolling unless you prove me wrong.

If you are not trolling very hard, I challenge you to get a marauder or even better, a vargur, since it is the ship I've been using, make its fit for 600-700dps pulse (remember "not have to be a perma" ?) tank. Take videos of these missions in random order, in the game's current state by doing sit&tank:

- Gone Berserk: Sounds easy? :)
- Buzz kill: Sounds easy?
- World's collide: all rooms except initial room. Simply finish mission by sit&tank.
- Dread pirate scarlett: last room.
- Angel extravaganza: bonus room.
- And I really love to see "Cargo Delivery" without blitzing. Get the Cargo and sit&tank :P Nice bounty tough.

Come back here in one piece, so I will admit I am incompetent. But m8, you really have to sit and tank! with your "600-700 dps" pulse fit without sacrificing extreme playtime on a mission. I challenge you!

Without exploding even once, If you do it with a Vargur (or with any marauder) with your proposed fit of max 600-700 dps pulse tank fit, I promise in front of everyone that I will give you my Typhoon fleet issue & fully fitted for sentry drones & ready to fly in-game. (Just please don't tell me you cannot fly marauders, that would be gross after all this talking.)

Otherwise, I really hate people trolling about something they actually don't do but claiming it to be true.
600-700dps pulse sit&tank every level 4 mission... meh...

Edit: I see 2-3 big explosions following a pod running away there if you're competent as much as you claim to be... Otherwise, that number is at least 4.


HERE HERE!!!!!
Even if I fit a golem with pure tank, it's still going to have difficulty with sit and tank due to sig radius.
Hell, even if I am pure tank and mobility it will still have issues.
The only sub cap in game that could possibly sit and tank all lvl 4 missions is a pure tank rattlesnake, and even it would have issues tanking some missions
Spacemover
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4119 - 2013-09-25 21:26:55 UTC
At first i really liked the announcement of the Marauderchanges but reading some times about it makes me feel like "well vargur we had a lot of fun together but perhaps we should go different ways"... a change to the marauderclass is nice and long needed but this change is the wrong one and will destroy the classrole as it is now.

i love my vargur for ratting (well i hate ratting at all but at least doing it in the marauder was not as boring as in a carrier.) you can warp in your site and shot all the stuff down thats closer than 48 km, relock it after wrecking and tractorbeam it to you for salvaging. works as inteded and is in isk more effective than carrierratting for me in angelspace.

the bastionmodule makes some thins about that even more fun: the boosterbonus makes it nice for 10/10 solo i think. you only have to worry about sniping down all neutstuff, tanking should be no problem. (to make it even easier you can use an alt in a commandship to boost you :P )

-unhappily t2 resis are bad, the 30% resibonus before was better for omnitanking.
-the +range on weapons: nice but i still only got 48km tractorrange so well kind of useless the + dmg from it is weak
-the mjd that should be fittet would steal me some tank or one of my caprechargers so the fit isn´t stable anymore. you need the mjd because you are slower than ever. sucks.
-1 minute no movement at all, no fleet support for you in that time: sorry marauders, no fleetfight with bastionmodule for you, byby
-tankbonus gone forces you to use the bastionmodule... well sorry for repeating but that sucks
-webbonus: well i never needed that webbonus in the first place, my vargur killed all before it came close and webbing a elitefrig wont help. also costs me another midslot i need for tanking

pve: so 2 medslots used for utilitycrap i didn´t need before on the vargur. therefore less tank because taking out the caprechargers won´t work well. so i can decide between less tank in shieldfit or nice tank but no damage at all in armorfit. well perhaps i should buy a macha or start earning money in that crappy carrier.

pvp: no fleet with bastionmodule because of no fleetrep, slower than before and still really low dmg. a machafleet is going to be more usefull and funier. (fast, more dps, not useless with scimis and still pretty strong with own shieldboosters) don´t move in pvp and you are dead. exspecially in an expensive t2 bs.
Spacemover
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4120 - 2013-09-25 21:32:34 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:

HERE HERE!!!!!
Even if I fit a golem with pure tank, it's still going to have difficulty with sit and tank due to sig radius.
Hell, even if I am pure tank and mobility it will still have issues.
The only sub cap in game that could possibly sit and tank all lvl 4 missions is a pure tank rattlesnake, and even it would have issues tanking some missions


well a rattlesnake is nice but i think fit a vargur with gist x type x-large shield booster and three more expensive invus than i got and pyfa says you have a really bad tank thing in there. of course dps is a little bad only about 800 without drones but should have more hps/second than that rattlesnake. if it´s not enough use a claymore to boost yourself.