EVE General Discussion

This means you were in the wrong corp.

I can't say i disagree ...

If a new player wants to start out mining, I see no problem with that or any direction the game might be headed in.

Because there is a finite number of skills for mining. Plus core skills and drone skills which are usefull for PVP as well.
So what I am saying is just because they start out mining does not make them only a miner. In time they will gravitate to other things especially as mining becomes boring.

The main problem is time. Many players do not stay with eve after the first 3 months. And cross training a toon for ganking makes that toon not viable for mining anymore because of sec standings. To go back and forth between ganking and mining with the same toon is not very workable.

The solution is to find a way around this for the new player which does not require investment in another account and one that does not interfere with the training time of the main toon on the account either.

Maybe if CCP can promote dual training an alt on the same account but for only a month or so for a new player.
Enough time to get the alt skilled up enough to do a gank. Then the dual training ends. He can continue to mine with his main and run around and gank with his alt when he gets bored. It might keep him/her in the game and he/she might even eventually decide to open a sidekick account and move the alt toon over to the sidekick account to continue to advance in the gank trade on his/her alt.

That might work to CCP's advantage in getting more players to stay with eve longer and get more players to run multiple accounts as well. It would just cost CCP a free month of dual training time on a single acount.

I am thinking outside of the box with this. Most players do not want to be told how to play the game but they do want tips how to improve their game play. I think this could be a win/win for players and CCP alike.

OP is off her rocker.
People don't PvP becuase no one showed them? hahahaha
PvP oriented people will always find PvP, usually rather quickly..even in games not generally PvP, they will find a way.
PvE oriented people will always find ways to avoid PvP, quickly or they leave, quickly.
Taking a PvE oriented person by the hand to show them PvP does not make them into PvP'ers, it makes them bad PvP'ers who never show up for ops, and log in less and less until they find a less PvP orient game to go play...in other words, they become a growing liabilty to a PvP corp.

For years I've been in help channel, on different characters, trying to make sure newbies actually get proper advice and facts and much more than anything else it's about showing them they have options other than the obvious pve/grind/terribleness while disproving other's mistaken "advice". Trying to "wake them up" about how most players in this game are bad and how they can avoid becoming like them and how they CAN compete if only they put in the effort to learn. Most just nod, shrug and keep on grinding, only a select few actually benefit from it. Over the years I've had youtube channels with tutorials, ran corps to learn newbies about pvp and "eve proper" but you just can't stop it.

To me the OP is wrong. EVE won't become "X5, the solo grind" because we can't turn around the onslaught of grindbears but because CCP, for years now, has been changing the game to facilitate that kind of mentality, simply because that increases the potential customer pool. Look at all the changes since 2008/2009, it's all there to make stuff easier, more simple and safer. CCP themselves won't state this outright of course as that would alienate their (still) core customers but it's a process that started a few years ago and helped by a painfully obvious lack of game knowledge by many of the DEVs.

Can't stop it but you might slow it down. Me personally I have given up and only play EVE on back burner these days, still in help channel of course but not going out of my way anymore to nurture the "spirit of EVE".

Only a coward makes such a post with an NPC alt!....... ... .. .

I am not new. At least, not that much. I've been around quite a while and I've seen a lot of things change since I started back in Red Moon Rising...

Honestly, despite having -years- under my belt I still feel new. I have this massive employment history because I can never find a place. Either the corp is too small and no-one is ever on when I am or the corp is too large and I'm just "another guy". It's even starting to be that way in my current corp and you'd think that'd be pretty hard considering it's primarily a Dust 514 corporation and I'm fighting with those guys -every day-.

But, yanno, that's just how this game is. You're either alone, feeling alone or feeling like you're unimportant. It sucks but it's strangely addictive. Sure, the player interaction is there and all but it's kind of got a War Z (video game, not the movie) feel in that "welp, there's nothing to do and there's no reason to work with anyone else, might as well just kill them all".

Ofcourse you have no idea of who he is or what he wrote. Try reading next time or is it too difficult for you in your player-owned corp?

Honestly?

As being said previously, it's the bitter vets which are scared of pvp that's the problem.
I've tried so many times where people get mad at us because we killed them, because people expect 'fair' pvp in eve.
It's not a coding issue, it's not a new player issue, it's a bitter vet issue.

Most HS corps just straight out decide to not login or not undock at all during a wardec... and there's plenty of people in those corps that want to fight, they're just not allowed to try because their CEO is a huge carebear vet.

You'd also be surprised about how many of those corps the CEO smack talks the living crap out of you (or in other eve terms... tears), while station tanking.

There's a ton of options for people to engage in pvp in this game, they just never really got the tools, their CEO is a douche that loves PVE, or they consider it too early in their gameplay.

One of my directors got a friend of him to play eve, he joined us from day one and flew around with us and had tons of fun.

TLDR: Bittervet carebears is the problem not the new players. :p

Here's my 2ct on a few topics raised in this thread:

On carebears:
Many posts here mention “carebears” and usually do so in a negative connotation. It's a term typically meant derogatory and applied by the PvP crowd to those players who prefer PvE, cooperative gameplay and consensual PvP (if they want to PvP at all). One player in this thread posted that he believed (to be exact: used to believe) that wardeccing “carebear” corps and trying to eliminate them as quickly as possible was a good idea. I didn't quote him here because I believe many people in this game share that opinion. But in effect this means that you want the “carebear” crowd to change their ways of playing this game and play it the way you think is fun … or to not play at all.

The lesson learned for new players is, that either you play the way some vet players try to force upon you or be constantly harassed until you quit. New players who started this game as a “carebear” – and from my experience with many other MMOGs I believe there's at least 2 or 3 “carebears” for every “PvPer” out there - often do not even get the chance to learn enough to start trying PvP on their own accord.


On the newbie experience:
Some posts here are about “first impressions” of the game and in part about the question why so many quit this game so soon.

Let me try to recall some of my own newbie experience. The very first time I tried EvE – many years ago – I remember that I needed to mine and do missions for 1 or 2 weeks before I was able to afford a cruiser and put some mods on it. I really wanted to try PvP and joined an open fleet that was about to go on a roam. Unfortunately for me they decided that they needed some target practice first … and chose my cruiser as a target. Lessons learned: people are scum, never trust anyone in this game, don't join people you don't know, a cruiser dies in 2 seconds if you are unprepared for combat. Another two weeks later I could afford another cruiser. This time I tried to explore low sec alone … unfortunately I jumped into a gate camp. Lessons learned: a cruiser dies in under 5 seconds even if you manage to get the mods online, it takes two weeks of boring grind to afford something that you will lose in PvP in 5 seconds. I quit EvE soon after. (Sure, today I'm much deeper into the game and know that some of those “lessons” were … not quite correct. But we are talking about the newbie experience here.)

Fast forward a few years and here I am – out to give EvE another try. So much has changed. I played a while with the avatar creator, even launched a capsule or two and finally decide to keep one character and start playing the tutorial. Got stuck in one of the very first missions (I switched from captains quarters to station view on an earlier toon – this caused my new character to start in station view and because of that I missed the first (or first and second?) tutorial mission that gave a certain skillbook you needed to train to complete a later tutorial mission). Asked in the help channel (and yes, I was polite, specific and behaved well). Got ignored at first (maybe no one knew how to help me). A couple of minutes later (I checked every container I had) I asked again and got told how stupid I was for not even being able to complete a tutorial mission (and I'm told nowadays you get a bounty on you for even saying “hello” in the help channel). In the end I figured it out myself when I created a second trial account and noticed that the tutorial had a different beginning. Lesson learned: don't ask for help – you will only get smack talk.

Day two. I have finished most of the tutorial missions and am a proud owner of a Cormorant now. I'm still in the starter system and notice a signal on my ship scanner. There's a pirate base in the system (it was a Guristas Refuge). So I take my deadly Cormorant to kill some pirates. I jump to that base … and am vaporized almost instantly. Drat. I notice almost all the mods are in the wreck so I decide to try and get it. I still have the Kestrel I got from the tutorial. Bad idea. Lesson learned, outch.

Now I was almost broke. Needed a way to make isk. Obviously combat was out of the question at the moment. So I sold everything I still had and mined a bit in my newbie frigate with the civilian mining laser it came with. Finally I was able to afford a new Cormorant. Fitted it with several civilian mining lasers (I noticed that you always got a new newbie ship if you dock at a station that has no ships in the ship bay). And I started mining to get back on my feet. Didn't take long and some player in a Cormorant tried to persuade me to take from his container so we could legally do PvP. “Hey, PvP is fun.” He even offered to pay me 1M isk in case I lost. Yeah, PvP is fun. Especially if your target is in a Cormorant that is obviously fitted with several mining lasers. Because mining lasers are a weapon of choice in PvP, aren't they? When I didn't take from his can he started to yellow box me and told me that he would kill me now anyway. Not sure if he meant it since I got away before he was able to lock me (aligned to station while we were talking). Lessons learned: People are out there to get you. If you give them a chance to kill you, they will kill you.

So I started a mining career. Not exactly by choice, but by necessity (as I perceived it at that time). And I'm not sure I would still play the game if I hadn't found better ways to make isk and some people to play with now and then (who live in a different timezone and rarely do stuff where I can attend ).

Continued in part 2.