Player Features and Ideas Discussion

I have removed a rule breaking post.

Most ppl using marauders for missions don't need the application. Frigs are usually popped in a volley or two anyway. The frigs you can't get are dealt with by drones b4 everything else is dead or you are ready for the gate.

More or less, the holdups for mission runners are usually travel time and general kill times where you already have high application, which is why I believe the many suggestions involve speed and damage increases. Given the train time, ppl who have them want significant pve advantages over their pirate counterparts. EW immunity is nice for a few select missions, but tanking changes and speed nerfs are meh.

I'd like to weigh back in. At this point:

- I love the general balance changes to PG, CPU, fitting, scan res, etc.

- I don't like the bastion module as-is, and will likely never/rarely use it. Basically, no matter the bonuses, I don't want to be stuck immobile and/or unable to warp in almost any situation.

- The MJD bonus does not solve the immobility problem. As the MJD is limited to 100km, it is not useful for regular play, only for very specific tactics. A MWD bonus of some sort would work much better to counter the bastion module.

- I actually like the resistance bonus idea now, it provides better omni-tank on the same build (no bastion) than the current Marauders with the repair bonus. However, it provides worse specific tank for two damage types per ship. The Paladin especially feels this very heavily. Different numbers here would make up for the lack of repair bonus, and allow the ships to perform in PvP and PvE at the level that they should.

The most important thing to me:

-Marauders damage output is not balanced, especially for PvE - as is or in the proposed chagnes. T1 battleships can get more raw dps for the same or less ISK investment and there is only a certain amount of projection that matters. To prove this, I'd like to demonstrate with a pair of fits:

I've decided to use a Dominix and a Kronos for comparison here since the Kronos is very good at projecting damage, gets great dps, and is very effective at killing frigates at close range due to it's web bonus. I'm also basing these ideas fits off of running L4 missions, although the same basic ideas apply to incursions, wormholes, and ratting in null. Note that I am using the Kronos as-is and not the "new" version, as it would be unfair, since the new version gets a reduced web bonus, greatly reduced drone dps, lower em/thermal tank (although I'm using a serpentis damage profile for the following numbers since that seems the most fair), lower speed for mission mobility, etc.

The Dominix is T2-fit with t1 rigs and requires no implants to fit or to get these numbers with. It is also not entirely min-maxed, there are surely slight tweaks that would change this ship to perform better in L4 missions:

5x 425mm Railgun II (Fed Navy Antimatter)
Drone Link Augmentor II

2x EM Ward Field II
Thermic Dissipation Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Large Shield Booster II

2x Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
4x Drone Damage Amplifier II
Damage Control II

2x Large Processor Overclocking Unit I
Large Ancillary Current Router I

5x Garde II
5x Warden II
5x Hammerhead II
5x Hobgoblin II
5x Warrior II
5x Hornet EC-300

This ship does 338.34 dps with railguns and 800.20 with drones, for a total of 1138.53 dps. A number of other options are available with the build, such as removing the drone link augmentor for an additional gun but reduced drone control range, which is probably fine for Serpentis, and even replacing the railguns with blasters - again fine for Serpentis, but this is a more balanced build. The tank is 537.12 against Serpentis for 2 minutes and 50 seconds, which is very comfortable at ~1140 dps. The railguns have an optimal of 36km with a falloff of 30km, which is effective for most engagement ranges but can be adjusted by switching ammo if other ranges are necessary. Gardes get an optimal range of 41.25km with a falloff of 12km, and Wardens push 600dps out to 103.125km (optimal) plus an additional 30000m falloff, both of which are outside of this ships drone control range and targeting range. The guns track at 0.0126 radii/sec and the gardes at 0.0495 radii/sec, and any frigates that a pilot is unable to snipe can be destroyed by light drones. This Dominix costs about 250 million isk.

Now for the Kronos. This Kronos is heavily faction fit and numbers will be reported without implants.

4x 425mm Railgun II (Fed Navy Antimatter)

2x Shadow Serpentis Tracking Computer (Tracking)
Shadow Serpentis Sensor Booster (Scan Res)
Federation Navy Stasis Webifier

4x Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Core X-Type Large Armor Repairer
Centus X-Type Armor Kinetic Hardener
Centus X-Type Armor Thermic Hardener

Large Hybrid Burst Aerator II
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I

5x Hobgoblin II
5x Warrior II
3x Garde II

The Kronos does a maximum of 914 dps with railguns and 180 with Gardes, for a total of 1094 dps. Note that with the proposed Kronos changes, the Kronos will be unable to fit this partial flight of gardes at all, and the most dps it will be able to push is with Hammerheads (and no room for light drones) at 1072.40. The guns have the same optimal and falloff as the Dominix, but now they track at 0.0333 radii/sec - this time, however, scripts can be modified to increase the optimal at the expense of tracking instead of switching ammunition types, which is really nice past ~50 km. The Gardes track at 0.036 radii/sec (drone link augmentors can be added to the build to adjust drone control range but the Gardes won't be able to hit that far). The ship tanks Serpentis at a rating of 812.80 dps for 5 minutes and 48 seconds, which is pretty well over-tanked.

This Kronos costs around 3.5 billion ISK. It does not meet the Dominix in raw DPS and, while it does project damage and track better, especially past 50km, very few rats hang out outside of 50km. The problems are more obvious with a T2-fit Kronos. While this Kronos can use light drones to kill frigates, the proposed version will only be able to web and hit with medium drones + guns (still effective, but it's better for mission completion time to let your drones kill frigates while you kill the big stuff).

The Kronos is probably better, as is, marginally. Consider it fit with t2 mods and compared to a navy domi and things will become more obvious. Consider it with the proposed changes - some sort of damage increase, bastion or otherwise, is probably worth at least looking into.

They are receiving buff for PvP, but Paladin and Vargur get nerf for PvE. Since I already have a ton of different ships for PvP I strongly support the PvE faction (though I do PvE like 1/10 of my EVE time ). Besides T2 resists for PvP are good for buffer tank, but since you cant be remotly repped... of course no one forces me to use bastion, yep. Also no one forces me to use siege on my revelation... who needs like 840% dps incerase...

@shivanthar

I looked at ur suggestion awhile back about the bastion module doing a large speed increase at the expense of dmg application. At first I wasn't really keen on the idea, but now I'm thinking it would be pretty sweet. Esp on missions like worlds collide, massive attack, room V on AE, dread pirate scarlet, recon 3 (I use a stabber but it would be cool in the vargur). All of which would be better than mjd.

+ I think it would look cool transforming, make some beefy thruster stuff, the vargur's Mohawk and beardhawk retracting, etc

MJD + long range bonuses + short range web bonuses = stupid design.

IMO, the MJD should only be applied to the Marauders out of the current ideas applied. Get in, get out. The mixed range bonuses from tractors, bastion, web and MJD are all over the board. Perhaps change the web bonus to range as opposed to speed to at least make it a little more viable if you're using short range weapons w/ bastion w/ web. At that range, the tracking should be decent enough to hit pretty damn well, again, just my opinion.

I am not bashing the Bastion as I LOVE the idea, but the bonuses that are being applied to it are not conducive to what the Maruader ships actually do: they are a care bear ship for moderately fast killing and salvaging all in one package.

On the same note though, I have a feeling that you all at CCP were going for the "Oh, I'm care bear, but now I'm in bastion mode, I'm now an uber care bear with sharp teeth" approach (not in those words or course so please don't hate me.)


I recommend a T2 variant of the Tier3 BS should get the Bastion; we are still missing this T2 variant (apart front the Myrmidon/Drake you guys still won't change). Or perhaps apply the bastion module for all BS class ships only as they will then become more used PvP wise; more tank, more range. I would **** bricks if I saw a fleet of them as they would be relatively inexpensive POS bashers as opposed to the Dreads.

Just my 2 cents. I've been watching this thread awhile and I hear to many people complain about the lack of the web on the initial change, and then when it get's put back in, it's "That makes no sense with all the range variables". Make up your damn minds people.

*please forgive any typos as I am half coherent and in the middle of an alcoholic adult drink*

Marauders in grind PvE where only DPS really matters are balanced by the fact that they can loot/salvage and run the PvE content simultaneously. Anoms are generally not salvaged because it's better ISK to just use that time running another anom. Being able to salvage it while you're running it while still putting out 90% of the DPS you were doing before is way better ISK/hour than you can make with anything else.

Marauders really shine in PvE where tank actually matters, especially wormholes. These ships as currently designed will kill capital escalations because it's way better ISK/hour just to run C3 anoms with them. You can make 250-300m/hour easily from C3s at current prices with a Paladin as currently spoiled. 40km range conflag that will kill 15-20m sleeper BS rats in under a minute, and then salvages and loots that rat while you're shooting the next one? You can't beat that.

Any update from CCP...?

Its a throwback from the original stealth bombers in the game.

Back when I first trained into them, they used cruise missiles (with the bomber skill effecting explosion velocity and whatnot), couldn't use covert ops cloaking devices, and the bomber skill itself also tied into a velocity bonus when cloaked. In the same way, it made it so they were faster when cloaked at skill level 5 than uncloaked.

Needless to say, you didn't see them very often. And not because they were cloaked.