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Freedom for Freighters
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Meyr
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
OnlyFleets.
#41 - 2013-09-15 19:34:03 UTC
Arya Regnar wrote:
Meyr wrote:

Why? Are you afraid that it'll actually take WORK to kill one? Tough. As I said above - HTFU, or STFU.

If I, as a freighter pilot, make the decision to sacrifice my cargo capacity in return for a tougher vessel, that's my choice. You, as a ganker, must then make the decision as to whether or not you are going to make the attempt to kill my ship in return for the probability of a loot drop (average of 1/3, according to many posters here, personally, I think that's a bit low, it's more likely about 40%). Is my increased defense worth your time and effort? Is the loss of my cargo capacity a fair exchange for me having to take the time to make multiple runs in order to move the same m3 of cargo?

The decision as to whether or not I arrive at my destination intact should be a mutual interaction of my forethought versus your greed.

Not merely if you're feeling particularly lazy or energetic.

Try thinking and working for your ISK, instead of counting on handouts from CCP. The rest of us have to - why should you be any different?

Yeah yeah HTFU, you are asking for a 110% ehp buff at the cost of only 30% cargo or so, that's still way over JF capacity and the ehp goes to 400k.

You say 40 cats can do it for 80 mil? And 240 must be in freighter to make it worth it?

How about we go do the math on the economics of time.
Lets assume for a start that it is 40 people were talking about, they are going to spend their time being ready for a gank, the FC will have to gather them up and organize the event in advance, after they spot the freighter it will be bumped off the gate and the catalysts will blow it up and lose their sec status as well as get killrights on them, then you have to risk another freighter to loot the dead wreck unless the cargo hold is small, where you can lose both the loot and the freighter depending on who is sticking around to screw with you, after that you have to get loot to a hub and sell it.

If you are still going to claim its 2 mil per catalyst then you clearly have no idea what you are talking about.
Harden the **** up bear, this game favors you and it shouldn't get any easier for anyone.

No you can't have your super tanky ship which still hauls more than half it previously could.
Use escorts, web freighter chose different routes, look at ships killed in last hour statistics and don't be a dumbass.

The catalysts make it cheaper on paper but you need a lot more manpower, organizing and the loot goes 40 ways.


1. Check the killboards - T1Cats are all over freighter killmails.

2. With multi-boxing, you can easily gank with only 3-5 actual players (and don't even say its not happening, you'll only look stupid).

3. You're going to have to show us the math behind your "110% EHP buff" statement.

4. Freighters regularly carry 1 billion ISK worth of cargo in multiple stacks. Assuming a 40% drop rate, that's 10 million for each of your three-week old Cat pilots, minimum. Likely more, because you've cargo-scanned the target.

5. Sec status loss. Really? You're going to whine about that?

6. Risk for your freighter pilot? Awww, poor baby. I risked mine, what makes your so precious?

7. Kill rights? When was the last time you actually felt yourself in any danger because of readily-dealt-with kill rights?

You whiners simply want all of the reward for little-to-no risk, you want to 'collect tears', you want to have your fun made as easy as possible, and who gives a damn about anyone else, no matter that they're paying the same subscription, YOUR 'fun' is more important, why should those lazy-assed carebears get to spoil it by deciding to sacrifice cargo capacity for EHP?

Yeah, I'll say it again - HTFU, you whiney, cry-baby gankers. You want the loot, bring the firepower needed to EARN IT. Get friends, get a few more multi-boxed accounts, or S.T.F.U.
Ammzi
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#42 - 2013-09-15 20:08:54 UTC
401k, pitiful. Absolutely digusting.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#43 - 2013-09-16 02:12:12 UTC
Arya Regnar wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Arya Regnar wrote:

How about we go do the math on the economics of time.
Lets assume for a start that it is 40 people were talking about...

This is mostly crap. You can do it with 30 catalysts with T1 mods. Each Cat costs 2 million. That's 60 million isk. The sec status loss is miniscule. I suicided a Rifter yesterday in Jita with a Rokh, pod as well. I was 5.0 and I'm +1. The freighter is not at any risk scooping. If you do it correctly the freighter will be in warp to a safespot before it shows on anyones overview that it is suspect. At the safespot, the freighter can align and be in warp long before it can be probed down if you have someone there to web it, or even if you don't.

As for kill rights, they are easily removed by an alt if the victim is foolish enough to share them or you risk him coming back and killing your 2 million isk ship if he decides to try to use them himself. Hardly revenge.

Oh yeah and if you don't understand that it IS 2 million isk for a T1 Cat then you can clearly find out that it is by going to Bat Countries killboard and checking their ganks. Yes they use T2 Cats as well but then they don't need as many, they also use T1 Cats which cost 2 mill each.


And everyones time just falls out of the sky and getting this many people together comes at no price.
This is why you can't have an intelligent discussion with you people, you just straight out ignore some parts of the system and claim that your math is right and we are better off for being able to do it this cheap.

Might I ask how you suicided a rifter in jita? As well as his pod? Using rokh? Unless you used smarties you shouldn't have time to kill him and his pod. It smells like an awful lot of BS, your killboard shows no such things and to begin with you are a null bear.

Why do you continue to make claims to know how highsec suicide ganking works when you clearly have not done it even once.

You probably tried a gank once and failed and now you assume that the miniscule 0.15 sec hit for an attempt is all the sec loss you get for a gank.

Please...

Since we are discussing it your way... You can gank everything in eve absolutely for free, you get 1 million noobships and you suicide gank a freighter using noobships which are free, since everyone has a ship that is free the entire gank is free as well.

That IS what you are basically claiming.

You pretty much got everything wrong in this post :)

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Altered Ego
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#44 - 2013-09-16 03:02:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Altered Ego
Freighters where not unarmed:

Defensively Equipped Merchant Ships
CAM ship

But frankly I think it's an easy trap to say 'They did it like that in the War, so we should do it like that in EVE!' After all, this is internet space ships. This is a game balance issue ... only.

Instinctively, I want to say no to to the OP. But after some consideration it don't think it's unreasonable to give freighters some fitting slots to counter two things; power creep and the resultant emergent game play.

Gimme more Cynos wrote:
I think freighters should have fitting options. Mostly because power creep in the game favored the ganker, and the victim got nothing at all. Time to warp freighters into 2013, don't leave them back in 2005 (or whenever they got introduced..).


Gimme more Cynos is entirely right; The Catalyst is a completely different beast than it was back when freighters were first introduced.
Meyr
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
OnlyFleets.
#45 - 2013-09-16 03:10:15 UTC
Ammzi wrote:
401k, pitiful. Absolutely digusting.


That's the best you can do? Did your cat walk across your keyboard to come up with such a masterful bit of 'Forum-fu'?

Go take a nap. Come back when your eyes are fully open.
Meyr
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
OnlyFleets.
#46 - 2013-09-16 03:16:04 UTC
I don't think anyone here is asking for carrier-class EHP for a freighter - but the ease with which they are killed these days has become more that a bit silly. Their EHP has not kept up with the power-curve of the weaponry used to kill them.

Decreasing cargo capacity, and giving the pilot the option of what and how to fit his ship should not cause such furor. I'm not looking for a 1M m3 freighter (would be kinda cool, imagine the lossmails for hauling capitals through hisec?), just the same ablity every other pilot of every other ship in the game gets - how much of one will I trade to get more of the other - tank, EHP, stealth, speed, etc...
Ludi Burek
The Player Haters Corp
#47 - 2013-09-16 03:36:12 UTC
Meyr wrote:


Yeah, I'll say it again - HTFU, you whiney, cry-baby gankers.




You sir are butthurt beyond belief. Lol
Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
#48 - 2013-09-16 04:20:36 UTC
ArcticPrism wrote:
Freighters could fit packaged carriers and dreadnoughts if they were allowed to fit cargohold expanders.


Learn to read! The OP is very clear about part of her suggestion being that the Freighters get their base cargo capacity reduced, so that you must choose to fit cargo expanders to get "back to" the cargo capacity that they have today.l
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
#49 - 2013-09-16 07:04:57 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:

You pretty much got everything wrong in this post :)

Oh I see... So you are trolling. Sorry for not catching up sooner.
Never mind I guess I should stop responding to you.

EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
Vanessa Vasquez
Perkone
Caldari State
#50 - 2013-09-16 12:18:45 UTC
a lot of replies here ... some VERY funny to read Big smile

For me btw, it's not about ganking. What if you have about 200.000m³ cargo? To much for an industrial, but with a freighter i have 600.000k free. And still travel like a snake. It's about choices!

All ships have slots, so should have freighters. The argument they would be harder to gank is so laughable. If you want to gank something, there is nothing in eve can prevent you from doing so!

Besides, learn about the modules!

Expanded cargohold II has - 20% hull HP and - 10 % speed!
Nanofiber - 20 % hull and - 15,8 % inertia.
Even Rigs have those drawbacks.

You can do the maths on your own, but take a Fenrir f.e.

Cargo: 720.000m³
Hull: 100.000 HP
Speed: 80m/s

Give it 3 low slots. Base cargo cap. - 12% per slot. = 460.800m³ instead of 720.000m³

Now fit 3 expanded cargoholds II and you get 840.960m³, but only 40.000 Hull and only 56m/s
Fit a DC II and 2 expanded cargoholds = 60.000 Hull with 60% resis and 714.240m³ with 64m/s

I'm pretty sure CCP can figure out values that make sense.

PS: I personaly like the idea of having an Obelisk with a drone bay, and maybe 2 mid and a high slot. The type of freighter you want to have when you travel a lot into low and null sec. You could fit tackle, ecm etc. to either defend yourself against small tackle or escape. This beeing said, my dear gankers and ebil piwates, is a good thing for you lot. "Why" you might ask. Cause freighter pilots can now CHOOSE if they take the risk of jumping into low sec when they have 1 in local and a T1 frig/cruiser on scan, cause they actually could fight/defend/escape. Cautios freighter pilots still wont, cynos can be fitted everywhere. But those wouldn't buy a Obelisk anyways, would they?
Ammzi
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#51 - 2013-09-16 12:33:09 UTC
Meyr wrote:
Ammzi wrote:
401k, pitiful. Absolutely digusting.


That's the best you can do? Did your cat walk across your keyboard to come up with such a masterful bit of 'Forum-fu'?

Go take a nap. Come back when your eyes are fully open.


How about:

WOW is ---> that way?
Altered Ego
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#52 - 2013-09-17 01:53:48 UTC
Vanessa: I think you are on the right track, but if we include rigs in the calculations, I think 2 lows would be plenty.

For example, in EFT if you start with a lv 5 pilot and plug in 3x Cargohold Optimization II rigs and 2x Expanded Cargoholds II you get a 2.8-ish increase in cargo capacity over an unfit ship with the same pilot.

So our generic base freighter should start with a little more than a third of it's original capacity.
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
#53 - 2013-09-17 16:02:38 UTC
Problem is when someone decides that he wants to do a trip with 50 billion cargo in a freighter with 4 reinforced bulkheads and damage control resulting in 970 hitpoints only in hull (that's well over a million with shields and armor.

Freighter is effectively ungankable because node would keel over before everyone would get their shots off.
You only have 170k m3 cargo ohhh no, big deal... Nothing in eve should be safe. The most extra hp on freighters resulting from them being able to fit tank should be 20-30% which should result in the cargo slightly bigger than a t2 rigged cargo orca has so it still has reason to be there. What you guys are proposing is invulnerable freighters.

Ganking should be profitable when there are idiots involved on the losing side.

Eve never was a game that emphasized on safety and it should stay that way.

Sim city players... No thanks.

EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#54 - 2013-09-17 17:09:07 UTC
I don't want my freighter nerfed
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#55 - 2013-09-17 17:19:04 UTC
Meyr wrote:
accept some real RISK to go along with your reward.


Since when have the "boohoo nerf ganking" crowd ever done this?

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#56 - 2013-09-17 17:22:00 UTC
Meyr wrote:
Arya Regnar wrote:
Meyr wrote:

Why? Are you afraid that it'll actually take WORK to kill one? Tough. As I said above - HTFU, or STFU.

If I, as a freighter pilot, make the decision to sacrifice my cargo capacity in return for a tougher vessel, that's my choice. You, as a ganker, must then make the decision as to whether or not you are going to make the attempt to kill my ship in return for the probability of a loot drop (average of 1/3, according to many posters here, personally, I think that's a bit low, it's more likely about 40%). Is my increased defense worth your time and effort? Is the loss of my cargo capacity a fair exchange for me having to take the time to make multiple runs in order to move the same m3 of cargo?

The decision as to whether or not I arrive at my destination intact should be a mutual interaction of my forethought versus your greed.

Not merely if you're feeling particularly lazy or energetic.

Try thinking and working for your ISK, instead of counting on handouts from CCP. The rest of us have to - why should you be any different?

Yeah yeah HTFU, you are asking for a 110% ehp buff at the cost of only 30% cargo or so, that's still way over JF capacity and the ehp goes to 400k.

You say 40 cats can do it for 80 mil? And 240 must be in freighter to make it worth it?

How about we go do the math on the economics of time.
Lets assume for a start that it is 40 people were talking about, they are going to spend their time being ready for a gank, the FC will have to gather them up and organize the event in advance, after they spot the freighter it will be bumped off the gate and the catalysts will blow it up and lose their sec status as well as get killrights on them, then you have to risk another freighter to loot the dead wreck unless the cargo hold is small, where you can lose both the loot and the freighter depending on who is sticking around to screw with you, after that you have to get loot to a hub and sell it.

If you are still going to claim its 2 mil per catalyst then you clearly have no idea what you are talking about.
Harden the **** up bear, this game favors you and it shouldn't get any easier for anyone.

No you can't have your super tanky ship which still hauls more than half it previously could.
Use escorts, web freighter chose different routes, look at ships killed in last hour statistics and don't be a dumbass.

The catalysts make it cheaper on paper but you need a lot more manpower, organizing and the loot goes 40 ways.


1. Check the killboards - T1Cats are all over freighter killmails.

2. With multi-boxing, you can easily gank with only 3-5 actual players (and don't even say its not happening, you'll only look stupid).

3. You're going to have to show us the math behind your "110% EHP buff" statement.

4. Freighters regularly carry 1 billion ISK worth of cargo in multiple stacks. Assuming a 40% drop rate, that's 10 million for each of your three-week old Cat pilots, minimum. Likely more, because you've cargo-scanned the target.

5. Sec status loss. Really? You're going to whine about that?

6. Risk for your freighter pilot? Awww, poor baby. I risked mine, what makes your so precious?

7. Kill rights? When was the last time you actually felt yourself in any danger because of readily-dealt-with kill rights?

You whiners simply want all of the reward for little-to-no risk, you want to 'collect tears', you want to have your fun made as easy as possible, and who gives a damn about anyone else, no matter that they're paying the same subscription, YOUR 'fun' is more important, why should those lazy-assed carebears get to spoil it by deciding to sacrifice cargo capacity for EHP?

Yeah, I'll say it again - HTFU, you whiney, cry-baby gankers. You want the loot, bring the firepower needed to EARN IT. Get friends, get a few more multi-boxed accounts, or S.T.F.U.


Oh boy, this guy is really mad. We should go & gank him.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#57 - 2013-09-18 13:43:51 UTC
Maximus Aerelius wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Maximus Aerelius wrote:
Freighters are meant to travel with an escort if they wish to avoid ganking and camps etc. An RL example is the Atlantic Convoys in WWII.

Freighters carry shedloads of stuff and a few modules are not going to help much...Freighters + Escort\Protection is how they're supposed to be flown not like any other ship in EVE and I appreciate the SP required but to give them that much m3 AND modules would just be OP.

Jump Freighters are landing on a Cyno so the same protection should be afforded to them as a Freighter and not a "throw-away" alt lighting up for it to jump to. Value the ship\cargo within = fly it with protection.

I guess you can gather that it's a no from me and no, I'm not a ganker or a Freighter Pilot but if you want modules AND Cargo capacity look at an Orca.

EDIT: Not the first time it's been suggested either so please use the search button to see if you idea is truly unique in that: Never before been suggested or has not been suggested in an active thread.

You realise that if someone wants to gank a freighter, they can do so regardless of how many escorts it has. Since the escorts can't agress until the gankers have, the freighter has to be able to survive at least 1 full volley, then as many partial volleys as it takes for though group to be dispersed. In your real life example, the escorts would be able to engage if someone came to close. A fleet of 50 ships coming towards them would be purged with extreme prejudice.

Freighters are a pretty dumb mechanic. Back before ganking was such an easy thing to do, they worked, but now it's at the point where you can kill a freighter with only a couple of hundred mil spent on ships. This basically makes a freighters enormous size pointless, since you can only carry cheap loads.


I'm glad you found this thread.

I'll give you that the "can't fire until fired upon" does negate the example somewhat but you'd need an Alpha of >150,000HP (roughly estimated from EVElopedia on a Fenrir of base structure and armour combined) now I don't know the size of gang required of the top of my head but that's a lot of ships piling in that DPS. Remote Reps & Escorts would be able to repair and engage after the first volley has been fired along with Concord (if traveling in Hi-Sec) and Gate Guns.

now some will say "why should I have to have an escort" and my answer would be don't...but don't expect to keep a ship that big for very long. Can't afford to lose it then don't fly it and if you have no module slots then fly smart...fly with an escort or grab an Orca.

10 nado's are able to pull a combined alpha of 150 000.

so, to include freighter pitlo skills + the fact that all of them won't hit for 100% damage, i would say 15 to 20 nados would be able to alpha any freighter under any circumpstance
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#58 - 2013-09-18 14:09:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
OP, use search function

Lucas Kell wrote:

You realise that if someone wants to gank a freighter, they can do so regardless of how many escorts it has. Since the escorts can't agress until the gankers have


low sec bro. then u can shoot bumpers, gankers and any scouts they have. or use logi and boosts in high sec, it will throw off the gankers calculations.

And dnt expect to beat a 20-man gank with a scout and one escort/logi. if the gankers are putting that much organisation into a gank, then u should put more organisation into defense. Failing that, carry less, take more trips. If in the end it becomes impractical to use freighters, then don't use them, u might call it 'emergent gameplay'. I myself have three freighter characters and i havent run into problems yet.

Meyr, the problem with the DC II is that it more than doubles tank for a mere 30% drop in capacity. its grossly unbalanced. if instead u lost about 60% of ur capacity then it would be much more acceptable. But then of course u'd still be moving slower because the base speed and agility stats would have to be rebalanced to compensate for the possible nano freighters.

all in all, adding slots to freighters is effectively a nerf for reasons already stated. in fact this entire thread is a repetition. instead of adding slots, ask for more freighter type ships. a smaller faster freighter and a tanky freighter that both sacrifice capacity and tank/speed. Thus versatility in the role, but no ridiculous shenanigans.

TL:DR: No

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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