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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

First post First post First post
Author
Atena Dineji
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3701 - 2013-09-14 20:21:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Atena Dineji
I like the PvP aspects of it.
I strongly disagree with PvE.

#1 MJD for Marauder in PVE sucks pretty hard. You can only tractor wrecks in 48km range, so it's pretty stupid to jump 100km away and after killing everything 100km back in to salvage. Marauders are meant for salvaging WHILE shooting which is awesome $$$/hour. If i can't salvage simultaniously there is no need for a marauder.

#2 Because of said 48km tractor range, personally i don't shoot things that are more than 48km away from me (except in rare special cases). So i don't see the need for 25% range bonus either.

#3 Stasis web may be a good thing for turret ships, but not for the golem. Fitting two TPs is way more effective than fitting a TP and a Web if my math is correct.

#4 Higher dps = more isk/hour. Short range = more dps. Positioning with short range weapons is very important, but it will be difficult with the reduced speed. MJD just doesn't make up for it because of the reasons above.

#4 Base rule of EVE: Risk is ISK. I've tried many MANY ships in PvE and liked the golem best, because you can make an insane amount of isk per hour if you're ballsy enough to fly it with an less than 180 ehp/sec sustained tank. It does beat the Machariel as a mission ship because of its TP and shielb boost bonus and bigger cargo.

[Golem, aemaeth]
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System

Pith X-Type Shield Boost Amplifier
Gist X-Type X-Large Shield Booster
Caldari Navy Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Caldari Navy EM Ward Field
Republic Fleet 100MN Afterburner
Republic Fleet Target Painter
Republic Fleet Target Painter

Torpedo Launcher II, Mjolnir Torpedo
Torpedo Launcher II, Mjolnir Torpedo
Torpedo Launcher II, Mjolnir Torpedo
Torpedo Launcher II, Mjolnir Torpedo
Small Tractor Beam II
Small Tractor Beam II
Small Tractor Beam II

Large Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II
Large Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II

So, how do you fly that thing? Warp in, fire up ab to get less than 48km range and kill everything as quickly as possible while salvaging with drones once the frigs are gone. BS need three hits, Cruisers one, Frigs will be killed by drones.
If you've chosen a good path you will be at the next acceleration gate at the same time your last enemy dies.
You can easily fly Angel Extravaganze in less than 40 minutes with everything slavaged.

How will you fly that ship after the patch?
You won't, it sucks. It's speed is too slow with AB, but you don't really have any other choice. You'll jump in and you'll have to go into bastion mode because your shield boost bonus is gone (now i'm not very happy about having trained marauders V, it's pretty much useless by now). You'll shoot enough ships to be able to tank the rest while slowboating to the next gate. You can't salvage half of the wrecks because they're out of range.
And now, after needing like 60+ minutes to finish AE with everything salvaged, you fly to Jita and go buy a Machariel.
Or - perhaps - a Vargur, because the Web Bonus with that one is very good, but i guess it will still need too much time to kill Cruisers to be effective enough to compete with the current ISK/Hour amount of the golem.

I'm really impressed by the game mechanics knowledge and ideas of CCP Rise when it comes to PVP and i do believe that changes will have a positive impact for marauders in PVP. No offense, but i'm sure if you force CCP Rise to fly lvl4 missions in a torpedo marauder he'll jump out of the window, so i'm not sure if the negative impact on the golem as a mission ship is clear here. If you don't want to make the golem useless with that patch change the stasis web bonus back to a shield boost amount bonus or an afterburner speed bonus. And if you want players in PVE to make use of a MJD increase the tractor Beam range to 90km and increase the speed of tractor beams (like in the noctis)

The Vargur will be quite interessting though, if you don't decrease it's speed that much.
Atena Dineji
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3702 - 2013-09-14 20:37:16 UTC
One thing to add for the vargur. IF you wold have a bigger range with tractor beams you could make good use of the mjd, but only if you manage to fit a tracking computer. If you fit that, you will have a hard time fitting another medslot module like web or target painter. I like that it now has a bonus for a web, but if you're able to jump out 100km you won't need the web. You'll most likely use a TP instead.
Change the Web Bonus to a TP bonus like in the golem and switch a low slot for a med slot, increase tractor beam range and the vargur will kick the machariels ass in pve.

Otherwise the Machariel will dominate PvE even more than it does now.
MuntadaralZaidi
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#3703 - 2013-09-14 21:05:20 UTC
Atena Dineji wrote:
One thing to add for the vargur. IF you wold have a bigger range with tractor beams you could make good use of the mjd, but only if you manage to fit a tracking computer. If you fit that, you will have a hard time fitting another medslot module like web or target painter. I like that it now has a bonus for a web, but if you're able to jump out 100km you won't need the web. You'll most likely use a TP instead.
Change the Web Bonus to a TP bonus like in the golem and switch a low slot for a med slot, increase tractor beam range and the vargur will kick the machariels ass in pve.

Otherwise the Machariel will dominate PvE even more than it does now.


Yes, this.

If marauders are going to be rebalanced around cramming more into midslots, I'd happily trade a lowslot for a mid. Losing a TE can be offset somewhat by ammo swapping, but if they're balancing marauders around dual prop and assorted forms of EWAR now we'll need more mids to cram the rebalanced fittings into. At least if we still want to use the marauders as mission boats without having them COMPLETELY overshadowed in that role by the Mach.
Aglais
Ice-Storm
#3704 - 2013-09-14 21:13:31 UTC
I'm still absolutely flabbergasted at the fact that people think that a ship that has:

-Heavily quantized 100km movement
-10-15km webs
-20-140km range weapons
-A mod that is mandatory for defense that makes you stationary

will actually have a place in PvP, at all. Look at that.

The web bonus is SNAKE MITTENS on the Golem, PvE or PvP. Are you insane? A torp golem will never have the chance to be in web range of a target (ESPECIALLY WITH BASTION MODE ACTIVE)- it's range is already so much greater than webs so as to make them utterly pointless. Let's not forget that cruise missiles are better than torpedoes in almost every way too, so really, if you're flying a torp golem, well... Let's just say you're putting unnecessary handicaps on yourself.

It does not and will never need a web bonus! It already has a bonus to target painters, why does it ALSO need webs? What the hell? Seriously, what is the goddamn point of the web bonus on the Golem? Tell me. Right now.

What.

Is.

The point.

Of webs.

On a goddamn Golem.

This is the clincher here. I'm going to be selling my Golem (that is, if anyone buys it- I can guarantee that I'm going to have to sell it for much less than what I bought it for, thanks a lot), and buying a Machariel or Nightmare instead for PvE. This is the most horrifically and uselessly unfocused ship in the entire game. It's the bonus-equivalent of fitting 2x 75mm railgun Is, one 'Gallium' 720mm artillery and 2x Heavy Pulse Laser IIs on a Moa.
Hena Muri
Perkone
Caldari State
#3705 - 2013-09-14 21:25:10 UTC
I’m confused. Why is CCP trying to design a ship with bonuses that have no Synergy?

The web bonus only matters if you aren’t using the MJD, and is questionably useful in Bastion as it is really a relic of maintaining the status quo. Mind you, a pair of these in bastion with short range weapons and some tracking scripts seems like it would be alright. Thus, ships should either get MJD or Web bonuses but not both to give it a clear purpose.

We get a tracking bonus on a ship that’s designed to use Long Range slow tracking weapons. Short of 3-4000% tracking, you’re not fixing their issues hitting enemies with any useful amounts of transversal.

Again, If you leave in the Web bonuses, then leave in the Tracking bonuses. I have a friend that uses a Paladin currently with short range weapons. Let it keep the web bonuses, give it a Tracking Bonus instead of range/falloff (you can have two different bastion models, one for brawling and one for sniping)

Actually, that's a brilliant idea.

Create two bastion modules. Change the Webifier bonus to 100% effect of bastion module bonuses per level.

1st module: Tracking, Web, and Tractor Beam bonuses. People are asking for a brawler style short range BS. Give it to them.
2nd module: Range/Falloff, resists, and MJD bonuses. This keeps the original sniper platform proposal.

The hulls for the ships would still have their other bonuses.

I’m take it or leave it on the Tech 2 resists. For two ships they are great for omni tanking, for two ships they are great for mission running. I think the Old bastion resists bonus was overall better but I do like the tech two resists on the Paladin and the Vargur (I prefer Omni tank). I’d still like to see a small resist boost from the Bastion module (maybe make it stacking instead) to make up for losing the rep bonus from the hulls.

Just my thoughts on this, using the Bastion module this would would effectively give you two ships, without new artwork, while still appealing to a very large number of people. I suspect managing individual bastion modules is also much easier than tweaking a ship that’s just confused in it’s purpose.

_WAter_


Kane Fenris
NWP
#3706 - 2013-09-14 21:56:40 UTC
Hena Muri wrote:


Create two bastion modules. Change the Webifier bonus to 100% effect of bastion module bonuses per level.

1st module: Tracking, Web, and Tractor Beam bonuses. People are asking for a brawler style short range BS. Give it to them.
2nd module: Range/Falloff, resists, and MJD bonuses. This keeps the original sniper platform proposal.



thats the beast idea so far in this thread one has to argue about configuration of bonuses on the module but giveing marauders the choice of which bonuses to use through which bastion module fitted coul make the ships work in all ways desired.
AND it would allow you to introduce even a third module if you come up with a nice idea some time in the future!

plz CCP do this !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(not necessarily in the above sugested fashion even if you want to run a golem with torps painter and web bonus would be stupid)

an alternative would be to give bastion modules diffrent bonuses in on and of mode but i guess it would be to op.... and not that specialized and would fall into tier 3 "versatility"
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#3707 - 2013-09-14 23:08:27 UTC
People, they reinstituted the web bonus because of 50 pages of crying about it being eliminated when they unveiled their first round of changes. For reference, see the first 50 pages of this thread. Now that it's back, everyone's crying that it "lacks synergy" and "nothing will ever get in range."

While a web bonus is not the best way to solve the problem, it works pretty well as a compromise solution allowing the Marauders some viability in PvP and also giving them a way to deal with frigates in high end PvE. Do you know how many elite frigates 10/10 complexes have? The final room of The Maze has upwards of 30. These frigs will switch to your drones, and if you try to kill them with drones only you will lose all of them before you're done. You need some kind of mechanism that lets your large guns hit them and a 90% web is a decent one. The same goes for wormholes, a flight of lights just doesn't cut it for C3 data/relic sites with 12+ sleeper frigs in them.
Cade Windstalker
#3708 - 2013-09-14 23:19:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Cade Windstalker
Mournful Conciousness wrote:

90% webs only appear on 4 ship types. I think to have a rational discussion about them it's probably worth considering them in context. Of course any armour ships with 5 mid slots can simulate them (hyperion, legion, proteus in some configs), but you are correct in saying that they give up something to do that, and rightly so.

So:

kronos - the 90% web bonus is there so a 425mm railgun-fitted kronos can clear a mission without worrying about orbiting frigates. The 90% web effectiveness is somewhat compromised in pvp due to the ship's general unsuitability for pvp, so it can be largely ignored in that context.

Paladin - see kronos.

Vindicator - This ship is a pirate ship and as such is supposed to be OP in one respect. For the vindicator, it is that the last thing you ever want to do is get close to it. If you get within 10km of a vindicator, it *should be* the last thing you ever do. That's why it's worth 1Bn, and the navy dominix which can be made to do almost as much damage, is worth 500m (although I actually wonder whether the navy domi is undervalued...)

Vigilant - see vindicator. If you're engaging it in a cruiser or smaller, the last thing you want to do is let it get close. It carries a high price tag to justify this ability to be the 'last thing you get tackled by'

Note that neither the vigilant nor the vindicator are particularly strong. My tests on sisi demonstrate comprehensively to me that in a 1v1, a correctly fitted hyperion defeats a vindicator every time - whether buffered or self-repaired. It's not *that* OP. The only thing the vindi pilot can do is crawl away from the hyperion - unless the hyperion fitted dual webs.

The PVE uses of vindicators and vigilants can be ignored. Game balance around PVE is a misallocation of resources because the outcome of mission efficiency is unimportant to the overall experience of the game. The outcome of a pvp encounter is fundamental to the experience of EVE. Being on either the winning or losing end of the encounter is a very emotional experience for most.

In summary:

* 90% webs can be simulated with 2x meta-4 webs. In any fleet multi-webbing is likely to be implicit, so whether webs are 60%, 70%, 85% or 99% is actually irrelevant when there are more than 2 brawling ships available. Consider a dual-web rapier. No-one has ever claimed that it's OP.

* 90% webs in a 1v1 will only occur with a vindicator or vigilant, where they are a desirable part of the ships overall pvp character.

Thus although 90% webs look like a dangerous and overpowered feature to some, their actual effect on eve is minimal.

I would suggest that the dev team and CSM focus on the imbalance of the ASB first. That is a much more pertinent game-breaker.

/MC


My problem is less with the single 90% web use-case, it's more with the dual 90% web case, where you can get someone down to what is effectively not moving.

With normal webs, even against multiple webs you can potentially tracking disrupt an enemy and avoid their shots, with your ship slowed to ~97% normal velocity that's pretty fruitless simply because you can't hope to maintain traversal on them.

With a fleet fight with multiple webs you can still only get up to slightly less than a 91% velocity reduction and that requires five or more webs on the same target.

2 T2 webs comes out to slightly more than an 80% velocity reduction.

Also I have less of an issue with the Vigilant in general because overall it's a less powerful ship. It lacks the higher EHP of the Vindicator and while it's certainly powerful the Deimos is generally a more popular ship because it has better tank and is a bit more well rounded.

For the Daredevil, well, it can't exactly web down a class since the only thing smaller than it is a Light Drone. It's certainly powerful but I don't have any issue with a frigate being able to catch fast frigates and kill them, I have an issue with a Battleship being able to generate a frigate/cruiser interdiction zone where any that get into the area die horribly...

As for PvE balance, I tend to agree that it's not what ships should be balanced against but certain traits that are useful in PvE tend to also be useful in certain PvP situations, so there shouldn't be too much of a dichotomy between making a ship with strong PvE application and niche PvP application.

As for ASBs, the number of ships that can actually run dual ASBs is pretty limited and the number that can run those and still do something useful even more so. There are better bait ships and you tend to have to hurt the fit pretty badly in other ways to run dual ASBs for solo work. Overall I would say that ASBs aren't abused terribly much in the real world either. I've seen a few kills of dual ASB fit ships but they generally failed to take out much if anything before dying.

If the effect of 90% webs on Eve is minimal then the effect of dual ASB fits is even more so.
Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
#3709 - 2013-09-14 23:23:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Sobaan Tali
I'm starting to like the multi-bastion mod idea better and better. Trying to slap everything onto a one-size-fits-all mod while turning the individual marauders into a strange mess of inconsistent stats doesn't offer much to anyone, PVE or PVP. Even within the confines of either end of the spectrum, say PVE, what works great for Incursion runners might be a kick in the face for mission runners. Likewise, bonuses that would make sense for mission runners may not be as useful for the very same Incursion runners. It gets to a point (see iteration 2) where bonuses/tweaks/changes in both bastion mod and marauder alike clash with each other to the degree where what we are left with is a class of ships that has little to no real appeal. Going with two different mods allows greater room for a far cleaner approach to balancing them in a way that doesn't constantly bump heads with itself or it's intended users.

"Tomahawks?"

"----in' A, right?"

"Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each."

"----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."

Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3710 - 2013-09-15 01:23:03 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:

As for ASBs, the number of ships that can actually run dual ASBs is pretty limited and the number that can run those and still do something useful even more so. There are better bait ships and you tend to have to hurt the fit pretty badly in other ways to run dual ASBs for solo work. Overall I would say that ASBs aren't abused terribly much in the real world either. I've seen a few kills of dual ASB fit ships but they generally failed to take out much if anything before dying.

If the effect of 90% webs on Eve is minimal then the effect of dual ASB fits is even more so.


Sure a dual ASB sleipnir can be kited by anything with a web. However, dual, or triple ASB is a real problem for the marauder. It's a problem because the marauders can fit them without being gimped - and they have huge cargo bays. Of course these cargo bays were designed for loot - but they hold cap boosters just as well.

Even without the bastion module, dual-asb vargurs and golems are to all intents and purposes unkillable by a single ship - unless that ship happens to be a dreadnought.

This provides a very shaky platform for any kind of bastion module which is designed to increase tank. The tank is already OP, so any increase simply makes it more OP.

This is not a problem that can be solved with convoluted changes to the bastion module - you simply have to start with a good foundation. Fix the ASB and it forces marauder fits into shield boosters, for which they were designed. Shield boosters and armour repairers are roughly equivalent in performance over the course of a fight (at least in terms of total effective hitpoints), so a bastion module can be made that affects them equally without too much trouble.

This of course assumes that one imagines that the bastion mofdule is a good idea. I actually don't.


Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".

Cade Windstalker
#3711 - 2013-09-15 02:27:17 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Sure a dual ASB sleipnir can be kited by anything with a web. However, dual, or triple ASB is a real problem for the marauder. It's a problem because the marauders can fit them without being gimped - and they have huge cargo bays. Of course these cargo bays were designed for loot - but they hold cap boosters just as well.

Even without the bastion module, dual-asb vargurs and golems are to all intents and purposes unkillable by a single ship - unless that ship happens to be a dreadnought.

This provides a very shaky platform for any kind of bastion module which is designed to increase tank. The tank is already OP, so any increase simply makes it more OP.

This is not a problem that can be solved with convoluted changes to the bastion module - you simply have to start with a good foundation. Fix the ASB and it forces marauder fits into shield boosters, for which they were designed. Shield boosters and armour repairers are roughly equivalent in performance over the course of a fight (at least in terms of total effective hitpoints), so a bastion module can be made that affects them equally without too much trouble.

This of course assumes that one imagines that the bastion mofdule is a good idea. I actually don't.


Okay, this I can get behind at least to an extent. We can definitely say that the Golem and Vargur won't have as much trouble as the other ships fitting multiple ASBs, though I think three is pushing it while still having a ship that does more than tank.

The problem as I see it is that if you limit ASBs to one per ship then at that point the marginal utility of one vs a cap booster is questionable.

This suggests that ASBs should be adjusted to be more balanced in the instance that you do fit two rather than simply hard limiting them to 1 per ship.
Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#3712 - 2013-09-15 02:47:47 UTC
The LASB isn't that bad in the grand scheme of things; even rotating 2 of them for sustained tank. With the recent changes to boost amounts, the Pith X line of boosters actually surpass the ASB in HP/s and can be reasonably sustained. Think about the difference between these 3 boost setups:

  • Cap booster
  • SBA2
  • L Pith X-type

versus

  • SBA2
  • L ASB
  • L ASB

Although the pilot has the option of activating both ASBs simultaneously for a large burst tank, they are limited to the time they can do this. In the first setup, they will have higher HP/s and a longer running time than if the second pilot were alternating the ASBs.

The real problem is the entire eXtra Large line of shield boosters, not just the XLASB. The up sizing of boosters provides huge HP/s burst tanks that can be supported by a cap booster with 800s for quite a while especially if your weapon system doesn't eat cap. The XLASB is the true abomination as it provides massive HP/s for 0 cap expenditure and also provides cap warfare immunity. If you can shoehorn 2 of these bad boys onto your hull for something like:

  • SBA2
  • XLASB
  • XLASB

You are really only killable through raw alpha or simply eventually running out of boosters. If you can afford faction boosters this gets even worse as you get more boosts per reload cycle and you can fit more of them in your cargo hold to boot.

Shield Tanking - Why armor tanking can't have nice things.

Shantetha
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3713 - 2013-09-15 02:51:28 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Sure a dual ASB sleipnir can be kited by anything with a web. However, dual, or triple ASB is a real problem for the marauder. It's a problem because the marauders can fit them without being gimped - and they have huge cargo bays. Of course these cargo bays were designed for loot - but they hold cap boosters just as well.

Even without the bastion module, dual-asb vargurs and golems are to all intents and purposes unkillable by a single ship - unless that ship happens to be a dreadnought.

This provides a very shaky platform for any kind of bastion module which is designed to increase tank. The tank is already OP, so any increase simply makes it more OP.

This is not a problem that can be solved with convoluted changes to the bastion module - you simply have to start with a good foundation. Fix the ASB and it forces marauder fits into shield boosters, for which they were designed. Shield boosters and armour repairers are roughly equivalent in performance over the course of a fight (at least in terms of total effective hitpoints), so a bastion module can be made that affects them equally without too much trouble.

This of course assumes that one imagines that the bastion mofdule is a good idea. I actually don't.


Okay, this I can get behind at least to an extent. We can definitely say that the Golem and Vargur won't have as much trouble as the other ships fitting multiple ASBs, though I think three is pushing it while still having a ship that does more than tank.

The problem as I see it is that if you limit ASBs to one per ship then at that point the marginal utility of one vs a cap booster is questionable.

This suggests that ASBs should be adjusted to be more balanced in the instance that you do fit two rather than simply hard limiting them to 1 per ship.


it's one module that does the job of 2, there is not marginal utility over it's massive utility over. Why did they limit the AAR to 1 module vs have 2 of those (irrespective of the fact that cap boosters are massively cheaper then nanopaste)
Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#3714 - 2013-09-15 02:58:33 UTC
As far as the web bonus is concerned, I'd like to see them fix the underlying problem instead of treating the symptom. The only reason you need webs at all on a BS size platform is to control smaller ships that have gotten "under your guns". In PVE this isn't really a problem because a single flight of light drones with even basic drone skills can bring them down quickly.

In PVP where those smaller ships don't have crap tanks and no hitpoints to speak of that flight of drones won't even scratch their tank. A BS is completely helpless against smaller craft. The exception being cruise missile ships with target painters and precision cruise missiles. 2-3 painters and precision will make them go pop quite nicely. Turret platforms are just out of luck in this situation.

I don't know how you fix this without doing a complete weapon system rework. A good start would be to forklift the existing tracking formula and start with something a little more realistic. Like smaller ships being harder to hit farther away instead of easier...

Shield Tanking - Why armor tanking can't have nice things.

Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#3715 - 2013-09-15 03:03:27 UTC
Shantetha wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Sure a dual ASB sleipnir can be kited by anything with a web. However, dual, or triple ASB is a real problem for the marauder. It's a problem because the marauders can fit them without being gimped - and they have huge cargo bays. Of course these cargo bays were designed for loot - but they hold cap boosters just as well.

Even without the bastion module, dual-asb vargurs and golems are to all intents and purposes unkillable by a single ship - unless that ship happens to be a dreadnought.

This provides a very shaky platform for any kind of bastion module which is designed to increase tank. The tank is already OP, so any increase simply makes it more OP.

This is not a problem that can be solved with convoluted changes to the bastion module - you simply have to start with a good foundation. Fix the ASB and it forces marauder fits into shield boosters, for which they were designed. Shield boosters and armour repairers are roughly equivalent in performance over the course of a fight (at least in terms of total effective hitpoints), so a bastion module can be made that affects them equally without too much trouble.

This of course assumes that one imagines that the bastion mofdule is a good idea. I actually don't.


Okay, this I can get behind at least to an extent. We can definitely say that the Golem and Vargur won't have as much trouble as the other ships fitting multiple ASBs, though I think three is pushing it while still having a ship that does more than tank.

The problem as I see it is that if you limit ASBs to one per ship then at that point the marginal utility of one vs a cap booster is questionable.

This suggests that ASBs should be adjusted to be more balanced in the instance that you do fit two rather than simply hard limiting them to 1 per ship.


it's one module that does the job of 2, there is not marginal utility over it's massive utility over. Why did they limit the AAR to 1 module vs have 2 of those (irrespective of the fact that cap boosters are massively cheaper then nanopaste)


Since armor modules fit for space with dps modules, the limitation is usually moot anyways. The shield tanks have the options to trade "utility" for tank and keep their gank. Armor tankers simply don't have the slots available to do this unless they drastically reduce their dps potential. It's doubly so since the only way to increase dps or armor HP/s is through rigs. The dps rigs require very high calibration and the ANP2 only offers a 20% increase verses the SBA2s 37.5%. This saddens me to no end.

Shield Tanking - Why armor tanking can't have nice things.

Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#3716 - 2013-09-15 03:07:34 UTC
Iome Ambraelle wrote:
The LASB isn't that bad in the grand scheme of things; even rotating 2 of them for sustained tank. With the recent changes to boost amounts, the Pith X line of boosters actually surpass the ASB in HP/s and can be reasonably sustained. Think about the difference between these 3 boost setups:

  • Cap booster
  • SBA2
  • L Pith X-type

versus

  • SBA2
  • L ASB
  • L ASB

Although the pilot has the option of activating both ASBs simultaneously for a large burst tank, they are limited to the time they can do this. In the first setup, they will have higher HP/s and a longer running time than if the second pilot were alternating the ASBs.

The real problem is the entire eXtra Large line of shield boosters, not just the XLASB. The up sizing of boosters provides huge HP/s burst tanks that can be supported by a cap booster with 800s for quite a while especially if your weapon system doesn't eat cap. The XLASB is the true abomination as it provides massive HP/s for 0 cap expenditure and also provides cap warfare immunity. If you can shoehorn 2 of these bad boys onto your hull for something like:

  • SBA2
  • XLASB
  • XLASB

You are really only killable through raw alpha or simply eventually running out of boosters. If you can afford faction boosters this gets even worse as you get more boosts per reload cycle and you can fit more of them in your cargo hold to boot.


Congratulations on comparing a 1m ISK module to a 2b ISK module and establishing that the 2b ISK module is slightly superior.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3717 - 2013-09-15 03:17:13 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Dosnix
OK...
So, I started my account back up after 6 months off, mostly because of this thread.

I thought I had gotten over my rage after reading along for however many days, but I guess not.
So, I'll start this post by saying....

*snip*

Ok...
I'm better now.

That said, here's my real comment.

Those of you stating that marauders are just fine the way they have gone full R E T A R D!!!!!

The only time marauders were good at PVE was when there was absolutely no ewar.

The only time marauders have been good at PVP is during the alliance tournament.

Now, there is something going added to the game not too long back that makes them appear to be good at PVE..
Any idea what that may be???
If you said ASB and AAR, then you get a cookie. (but not from me...Go ask your mom and tell her Joe Risalo sent you.....she knows me.....very well)

Now, lets look at the facts of strengths vs weaknesses.

STRENGTHS
Damage - Effect damage of 8 weapons.
Projection - All Marauders are pretty good at projection, even with short range weapons.
Tank - They are capable of pretty substantial tanks.
Salvage on the go - Although, not that well.
Utility highs - assuming you don't care about salvage, then you've got utility. I used smart bombs.
Weapon count - The use of only 4 weapon systems allows for less ammo consumption, and less cap consumption in some cases.

WEAKNESSES
Cap usage - All 4 marauders consume a high amount of cap, even if it's not needed for weapons (Golem and Vargur)
Ewar - Self explanatory.
Tractor range - Pretty much all marauder pilots have been proponents of greater range, even before the Noctis
Size - These ships have always had a large sig, making the easy to hit targets
Mobility - Fairly slow, with terrible align times
Tank - Their sig pretty much counters that, making them tank no better than a t1 BS
cost - This doesn't just factor the cost of the ship, it also factors fitting costs
SP - This doesn't just factor for the ship, this is also fitting. Pre-torp nerf you required max range skills AND t2 range rigs for a Golem to hit a target at max orbit range in lvl 4 missions. Now, it's not possible without prop mods(which reverts back to mobility)
Scan res - Take quite a while to lock a small target..


Now, with all that said (may have missed some) Here is the reason they aren't that good at PVE or PVP
Quote:
WEAKNESSES
Cap usage - All 4 marauders consume a high amount of cap, even if it's not needed for weapons (Golem and Vargur)
Ewar - Self explanatory.
Tractor range - Pretty much all marauder pilots have been proponents of greater range, even before the Noctis
Size - These ships have always had a large sig, making the easy to hit targets
Mobility - Fairly slow, with terrible align times
Tank - Their sig pretty much counters that, making them tank no better than a t1 BS
cost - This doesn't just factor the cost of the ship, it also factors fitting costs
SP - This doesn't just factor for the ship, this is also fitting. Pre-torp nerf you required max range skills AND t2 range rigs for a Golem to hit a target at max orbit range in lvl 4 missions. Now, it's not possible without prop mods(which reverts back to mobility)
Scan res - Take quite a while to lock a small target..


See what I did there?

Now, lets look at these weaknesses
Pre-ASB/AAR, all the Marauders suffered with cap. Even the Golem could easily cap out.
The reason for this was due to tank.
Although they had a substantial tank on paper, this didn't hold true in combat.
Their massive sig radius and low mobility has always lead to NPCs and PVP'ers apply full potential DPS.
This meant their tanks were no better, if not worse, than T1 ships.
They aren't at all effective with a perma-tank, and a boost tank would sink a marauder as fast as a torpedo into a row boat.
This lead to the need of a cap-booster (pre-ASB/AAR).
Now, the awesome DPS, projection, and application of these ships helped to counteract these issues, however, they were overshadowed by more issues.
Those being Ewar and scan res.
If you could get a lock on a target, it took forever to do so. Hell, sensor dampens on scan res was just as bad as being jammed.
So, this all lead to the final 2 issues, which are SP and isk costs.
Was it even worth the costs considering all these issues?
HELL NO!!!

There seems to be plenty of people on here saying that these ships are fine the way they are, just with minor tweaking.
These people probably never flew a marauder before ASBs and AARs. Life was horrible.
Also, are these people even flying mission with ewar?
Target painters in missions are just as devastating to a Marauder as jams, damps, and cap war. Hit a marauder with a TP and it's sig radius goes through the roof!!!! Even at optimal+falloff+falloff, you could still hammer down on a TP'd marauder.

My next post will consist of my opinions of the suggested changes, and my suggestions.

P.S. Nice to see the forums gods are still destroying posts... Glad I remembered to copy....

Edit by ISD Dosnix:
Avoiding the profanity filter is not allowed
ISD Dosnix
Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#3718 - 2013-09-15 03:20:42 UTC
Xequecal wrote:
Iome Ambraelle wrote:
The LASB isn't that bad in the grand scheme of things; even rotating 2 of them for sustained tank. With the recent changes to boost amounts, the Pith X line of boosters actually surpass the ASB in HP/s and can be reasonably sustained. Think about the difference between these 3 boost setups:

  • Cap booster
  • SBA2
  • L Pith X-type

versus

  • SBA2
  • L ASB
  • L ASB

Although the pilot has the option of activating both ASBs simultaneously for a large burst tank, they are limited to the time they can do this. In the first setup, they will have higher HP/s and a longer running time than if the second pilot were alternating the ASBs.

The real problem is the entire eXtra Large line of shield boosters, not just the XLASB. The up sizing of boosters provides huge HP/s burst tanks that can be supported by a cap booster with 800s for quite a while especially if your weapon system doesn't eat cap. The XLASB is the true abomination as it provides massive HP/s for 0 cap expenditure and also provides cap warfare immunity. If you can shoehorn 2 of these bad boys onto your hull for something like:

  • SBA2
  • XLASB
  • XLASB

You are really only killable through raw alpha or simply eventually running out of boosters. If you can afford faction boosters this gets even worse as you get more boosts per reload cycle and you can fit more of them in your cargo hold to boot.


Congratulations on comparing a 1m ISK module to a 2b ISK module and establishing that the 2b ISK module is slightly superior.

*bows*
I even thought about editing that into the original post, but thought "Nah, nobody will take this out of context and they'll surely be able to understand the overall balancing intent to the examples." Guess you proved me wrong. I have been sufficiently punished and won't forget this valuable lesson for some time to come.

In all seriousness, the original comparison was between LASB and L Pith X-type. If you do the math, you burn 30 mil ISK every hour you spend alternating the two LASBs. So you have to spend 13 hours repping before it actually costs more than the 399 mil ISK Large Pith X-type module. We can go back and forth arguing total cost of ownership and increased risk of gank for hours and come to no better conclusion than anyone else has before. The point here was simply looking at repair potential in that context alone.

Shield Tanking - Why armor tanking can't have nice things.

Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3719 - 2013-09-15 04:25:25 UTC
Ok, so, first I'll start with my opinions of the presented changes.

Iteration 1

I'm sure most of the players that have been flying marauders for a while were quite happy with iteration 1.
Hell, I was. This was especially good for torp golem fits.
Finally you would be able to hit max orbit mission targets again!!! (51km) (remember, just because on paper you can hit at 51km with torps doesn't mean it works in practice... you still gotta chase the target...)

The range bonuses doesn't too much effect those of us that already use long range weapons.
As a Golem pilot myself(though I haven't flown one in a long time), Cruise is the way to go after the missile changes.
They got pretty epic...

The resists buff while in bastion was AMAZING TO SEE!!!
I hate that they removed it in iteration 2.

Iteration 2

That said, I was one of the many people that were proponents of t2 resists on Marauders.
Granted, this was when t2 resists were 5% and pre-ASB/AAR, but the point still stands.
Many of us wanted resists over rep amount because of the cap issues with Marauders and because of the issues with sig making tank less effective. It would make cap less of an issue, meaning that both perma tanks and boost tanks would be more effective.
However, I would not trade Omni 30% resist buff while in bastion for a t2 resists.
That's just dumb.

The only main reason I have for liking bastion now is ewar immunity. This is great!!! I don't know that this effects cap warfare, but if it does, that's even better.
If it doesn't, then the loss of the 30% resists is even worse...
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3720 - 2013-09-15 04:49:15 UTC
Now, here's my suggestions

Standard Flight Mode

1) Balance the resistances on the Marauders
This would be unique to Marauders and would fit their role quite well.
Example
Golem - current
0% EM - 50% EX - 47.5% KI - 40% TH
Post Suggestion (roughly)
34 - 34 - 35 - 34
This would allow Marauders to build balanced tanks based off of these resists, giving them an ability that fits their description.

2) Balance the Hull around a brawler design.

I.E. - Their bonuses will be focused on damage application. Tracking/exp radius/velocity focused bonuses.
They would also be bonused towards MWD. At all skills lvl 5, with no mods, these ships would be able to track any battleship at any range, perfectly.

3) Weak sensors, but stronger than they are now.

4) Much better agility and mobility

5) Smaller mass

6) Shield/armor/structure are balanced somewhere in between current and proposed on this thread.

7) 6 highs instead of 7. If that slot needs to be given back to the ship, then it should be returned in either mid or low, depending on what CCP feels would be most balanced.

8) These ships would not be balanced towards utility, but would have that option due to spare slots.

9) No salvage/tractor bonus

10) Better scan res... possibly better than proposed in this thread

11) Would not have range bonuses at all.

This means the base hull of these ships would be designed specifically to be brawlers with balanced resists and propulsion bonuses.

These would be effective in PVE for those that like close range, high speed, and would be extremely effective in all forms of pvp.
They would also fit well in PVE fleets, even with long range weapons.

Bastion Module

IMPORTANT - My design idea behind the bastion module is that it would eventually be usable on many other ships, both being new ships, and existing ships and would have different effects on each ship.

1) The Bastion Module would not require a high slot, but instead, would have it's own slot much like subs on t3's

2) The bonuses for bastion mode would replace all the bonuses of the fitted ship

3) The bonuses for the bastion mode would be hull specific

4) Different sizes of bastion modules in the event they were ever designed for smaller ships I.E. small, medium, large

5) Bastion module would effect each possible ship differently

In the case of Marauders, they would be ANCHORED immediately. This also means that when you activate the module, you would be instantly anchored, reguardless of velocity. This would also keep CCP from having to worry about locking ships using this module because they wouldn't be able to warp, jump, use a WH, or move. So, they wouldn't have to increase the mass to avoid bumping, because this ship wouldn't move at all. (increasing mass means you could scan them down with no skill and one probe) PERHAPS TAKING DAMAGE IF AT TOO HIGH OF A VELOCITY

6) Bastion module being fitted reduces velocity and agility by X%

Now

Bastion Mode Marauder

As stated under Bastion module, all the bonuses change
Retains all base hull stats

1) Damage bonus either carries over, or drops/raises depending on what CCP would bonus the base hulls as.. Bastion, I would assume stays 100% damage.

2) When bastioned, gains a bonus towards tractor range. I would say comparable to that of the Noctis. (noctis would still stay on top due to 8 high slots)

3) Range bonuses

4) TP bonus in the case of the Golem, bonus to the effectiveness of tracking modules in the case of the turret boats, and bonuses towards sentry tracking in the case of the Kronos

5) Bastion module being fitted converts the Kronos into a sentry drone focused ship with all bonuses focused on sentries. (assuming a sentry boat would be preferred over a rail boat)

6) Tank boost buff while bastioned

7) Possibly a resist buff while bastioned

8) ewar immunity

9) A) MJD cycle bonus
B) Range bonus (150-200km range)
C) Able to select a range (anything 50km or more)

10) unable to receive remote assistance

11) (possible suggestion I read) - only bastion ships may assist each other
(my change to it) - with cap assistance and nothing else.


This would mean that you have a PVP boat that has pve potential with a role being specifically a brawler. It would be niche while being used in some pve situations.
However, the Bastioned mode would be a PVE focused boat with it's role being a tanky, sniper. It would be niche in pvp, but highly effective in certain situations such as breaking small roams, breaking small to med gate camps, and bait.

You would be required to commit, which is why I have proposed it being more like a sub system, so that once it's fitted, you're stuck in that role, instead of being able to simply online/offline a module, or simply swap a script.
No ship should have the capability of changing roles on a whim.

Alternately, those of you stating that the marauders need to be more versatile that t1, navy, or pirate didn't take a look when CCP stated the design plans of ships.
T2 ships are focused, t1 ships are versatile, navy are more focused than t1 and more versatile than t2, while pirate were designed to have the ultimate versatility with utility.(or something along that lines(was a long time ago))

I feel this is the best way to design marauders.

Now, with the Bastion module having a slot specifically for it, it would mean that other ships could be modified to allow a bastion module.

Black Ops BS's
Orca
Mining Barges/exhumers
Industrials
Noctis
Primus
Freighters

Basically, every ship would be different when fitting a bastion module.
I.E.
Hulk - range bonus at the cost of yield (reach a whole belt from warp in point)
Mack - Mine gas and take no damage at all, can't mine ore/ice.
Those are just some possible Bastion effects.