Player Features and Ideas Discussion

One thing to add for the vargur. IF you wold have a bigger range with tractor beams you could make good use of the mjd, but only if you manage to fit a tracking computer. If you fit that, you will have a hard time fitting another medslot module like web or target painter. I like that it now has a bonus for a web, but if you're able to jump out 100km you won't need the web. You'll most likely use a TP instead.
Change the Web Bonus to a TP bonus like in the golem and switch a low slot for a med slot, increase tractor beam range and the vargur will kick the machariels ass in pve.

Otherwise the Machariel will dominate PvE even more than it does now.

I'm still absolutely flabbergasted at the fact that people think that a ship that has:

-Heavily quantized 100km movement
-10-15km webs
-20-140km range weapons
-A mod that is mandatory for defense that makes you stationary

will actually have a place in PvP, at all. Look at that.

The web bonus is SNAKE MITTENS on the Golem, PvE or PvP. Are you insane? A torp golem will never have the chance to be in web range of a target (ESPECIALLY WITH BASTION MODE ACTIVE)- it's range is already so much greater than webs so as to make them utterly pointless. Let's not forget that cruise missiles are better than torpedoes in almost every way too, so really, if you're flying a torp golem, well... Let's just say you're putting unnecessary handicaps on yourself.

It does not and will never need a web bonus! It already has a bonus to target painters, why does it ALSO need webs? What the hell? Seriously, what is the goddamn point of the web bonus on the Golem? Tell me. Right now.

What.

Is.

The point.

Of webs.

On a goddamn Golem.

This is the clincher here. I'm going to be selling my Golem (that is, if anyone buys it- I can guarantee that I'm going to have to sell it for much less than what I bought it for, thanks a lot), and buying a Machariel or Nightmare instead for PvE. This is the most horrifically and uselessly unfocused ship in the entire game. It's the bonus-equivalent of fitting 2x 75mm railgun Is, one 'Gallium' 720mm artillery and 2x Heavy Pulse Laser IIs on a Moa.

thats the beast idea so far in this thread one has to argue about configuration of bonuses on the module but giveing marauders the choice of which bonuses to use through which bastion module fitted coul make the ships work in all ways desired.
AND it would allow you to introduce even a third module if you come up with a nice idea some time in the future!

plz CCP do this !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(not necessarily in the above sugested fashion even if you want to run a golem with torps painter and web bonus would be stupid)

an alternative would be to give bastion modules diffrent bonuses in on and of mode but i guess it would be to op.... and not that specialized and would fall into tier 3 "versatility"

My problem is less with the single 90% web use-case, it's more with the dual 90% web case, where you can get someone down to what is effectively not moving.

With normal webs, even against multiple webs you can potentially tracking disrupt an enemy and avoid their shots, with your ship slowed to ~97% normal velocity that's pretty fruitless simply because you can't hope to maintain traversal on them.

With a fleet fight with multiple webs you can still only get up to slightly less than a 91% velocity reduction and that requires five or more webs on the same target.

2 T2 webs comes out to slightly more than an 80% velocity reduction.

Also I have less of an issue with the Vigilant in general because overall it's a less powerful ship. It lacks the higher EHP of the Vindicator and while it's certainly powerful the Deimos is generally a more popular ship because it has better tank and is a bit more well rounded.

For the Daredevil, well, it can't exactly web down a class since the only thing smaller than it is a Light Drone. It's certainly powerful but I don't have any issue with a frigate being able to catch fast frigates and kill them, I have an issue with a Battleship being able to generate a frigate/cruiser interdiction zone where any that get into the area die horribly...

As for PvE balance, I tend to agree that it's not what ships should be balanced against but certain traits that are useful in PvE tend to also be useful in certain PvP situations, so there shouldn't be too much of a dichotomy between making a ship with strong PvE application and niche PvP application.

As for ASBs, the number of ships that can actually run dual ASBs is pretty limited and the number that can run those and still do something useful even more so. There are better bait ships and you tend to have to hurt the fit pretty badly in other ways to run dual ASBs for solo work. Overall I would say that ASBs aren't abused terribly much in the real world either. I've seen a few kills of dual ASB fit ships but they generally failed to take out much if anything before dying.

If the effect of 90% webs on Eve is minimal then the effect of dual ASB fits is even more so.

Sure a dual ASB sleipnir can be kited by anything with a web. However, dual, or triple ASB is a real problem for the marauder. It's a problem because the marauders can fit them without being gimped - and they have huge cargo bays. Of course these cargo bays were designed for loot - but they hold cap boosters just as well.

Even without the bastion module, dual-asb vargurs and golems are to all intents and purposes unkillable by a single ship - unless that ship happens to be a dreadnought.

This provides a very shaky platform for any kind of bastion module which is designed to increase tank. The tank is already OP, so any increase simply makes it more OP.

This is not a problem that can be solved with convoluted changes to the bastion module - you simply have to start with a good foundation. Fix the ASB and it forces marauder fits into shield boosters, for which they were designed. Shield boosters and armour repairers are roughly equivalent in performance over the course of a fight (at least in terms of total effective hitpoints), so a bastion module can be made that affects them equally without too much trouble.

This of course assumes that one imagines that the bastion mofdule is a good idea. I actually don't.

The LASB isn't that bad in the grand scheme of things; even rotating 2 of them for sustained tank. With the recent changes to boost amounts, the Pith X line of boosters actually surpass the ASB in HP/s and can be reasonably sustained. Think about the difference between these 3 boost setups:

• Cap booster
• SBA2
• L Pith X-type

versus

• SBA2
• L ASB
• L ASB

Although the pilot has the option of activating both ASBs simultaneously for a large burst tank, they are limited to the time they can do this. In the first setup, they will have higher HP/s and a longer running time than if the second pilot were alternating the ASBs.

The real problem is the entire eXtra Large line of shield boosters, not just the XLASB. The up sizing of boosters provides huge HP/s burst tanks that can be supported by a cap booster with 800s for quite a while especially if your weapon system doesn't eat cap. The XLASB is the true abomination as it provides massive HP/s for 0 cap expenditure and also provides cap warfare immunity. If you can shoehorn 2 of these bad boys onto your hull for something like:

• SBA2
• XLASB
• XLASB

You are really only killable through raw alpha or simply eventually running out of boosters. If you can afford faction boosters this gets even worse as you get more boosts per reload cycle and you can fit more of them in your cargo hold to boot.

As far as the web bonus is concerned, I'd like to see them fix the underlying problem instead of treating the symptom. The only reason you need webs at all on a BS size platform is to control smaller ships that have gotten "under your guns". In PVE this isn't really a problem because a single flight of light drones with even basic drone skills can bring them down quickly.

In PVP where those smaller ships don't have crap tanks and no hitpoints to speak of that flight of drones won't even scratch their tank. A BS is completely helpless against smaller craft. The exception being cruise missile ships with target painters and precision cruise missiles. 2-3 painters and precision will make them go pop quite nicely. Turret platforms are just out of luck in this situation.

I don't know how you fix this without doing a complete weapon system rework. A good start would be to forklift the existing tracking formula and start with something a little more realistic. Like smaller ships being harder to hit farther away instead of easier...

Congratulations on comparing a 1m ISK module to a 2b ISK module and establishing that the 2b ISK module is slightly superior.

*bows*
I even thought about editing that into the original post, but thought "Nah, nobody will take this out of context and they'll surely be able to understand the overall balancing intent to the examples." Guess you proved me wrong. I have been sufficiently punished and won't forget this valuable lesson for some time to come.

In all seriousness, the original comparison was between LASB and L Pith X-type. If you do the math, you burn 30 mil ISK every hour you spend alternating the two LASBs. So you have to spend 13 hours repping before it actually costs more than the 399 mil ISK Large Pith X-type module. We can go back and forth arguing total cost of ownership and increased risk of gank for hours and come to no better conclusion than anyone else has before. The point here was simply looking at repair potential in that context alone.

Now, here's my suggestions

Standard Flight Mode

1) Balance the resistances on the Marauders
This would be unique to Marauders and would fit their role quite well.
Example
Golem - current
0% EM - 50% EX - 47.5% KI - 40% TH
Post Suggestion (roughly)
34 - 34 - 35 - 34
This would allow Marauders to build balanced tanks based off of these resists, giving them an ability that fits their description.

2) Balance the Hull around a brawler design.

I.E. - Their bonuses will be focused on damage application. Tracking/exp radius/velocity focused bonuses.
They would also be bonused towards MWD. At all skills lvl 5, with no mods, these ships would be able to track any battleship at any range, perfectly.

3) Weak sensors, but stronger than they are now.

4) Much better agility and mobility

5) Smaller mass

6) Shield/armor/structure are balanced somewhere in between current and proposed on this thread.

7) 6 highs instead of 7. If that slot needs to be given back to the ship, then it should be returned in either mid or low, depending on what CCP feels would be most balanced.

8) These ships would not be balanced towards utility, but would have that option due to spare slots.

9) No salvage/tractor bonus

10) Better scan res... possibly better than proposed in this thread

11) Would not have range bonuses at all.

This means the base hull of these ships would be designed specifically to be brawlers with balanced resists and propulsion bonuses.

These would be effective in PVE for those that like close range, high speed, and would be extremely effective in all forms of pvp.
They would also fit well in PVE fleets, even with long range weapons.

Bastion Module

IMPORTANT - My design idea behind the bastion module is that it would eventually be usable on many other ships, both being new ships, and existing ships and would have different effects on each ship.

1) The Bastion Module would not require a high slot, but instead, would have it's own slot much like subs on t3's

2) The bonuses for bastion mode would replace all the bonuses of the fitted ship

3) The bonuses for the bastion mode would be hull specific

4) Different sizes of bastion modules in the event they were ever designed for smaller ships I.E. small, medium, large

5) Bastion module would effect each possible ship differently

In the case of Marauders, they would be ANCHORED immediately. This also means that when you activate the module, you would be instantly anchored, reguardless of velocity. This would also keep CCP from having to worry about locking ships using this module because they wouldn't be able to warp, jump, use a WH, or move. So, they wouldn't have to increase the mass to avoid bumping, because this ship wouldn't move at all. (increasing mass means you could scan them down with no skill and one probe) PERHAPS TAKING DAMAGE IF AT TOO HIGH OF A VELOCITY

6) Bastion module being fitted reduces velocity and agility by X%

Now

Bastion Mode Marauder

As stated under Bastion module, all the bonuses change
Retains all base hull stats

1) Damage bonus either carries over, or drops/raises depending on what CCP would bonus the base hulls as.. Bastion, I would assume stays 100% damage.

2) When bastioned, gains a bonus towards tractor range. I would say comparable to that of the Noctis. (noctis would still stay on top due to 8 high slots)

3) Range bonuses

4) TP bonus in the case of the Golem, bonus to the effectiveness of tracking modules in the case of the turret boats, and bonuses towards sentry tracking in the case of the Kronos

5) Bastion module being fitted converts the Kronos into a sentry drone focused ship with all bonuses focused on sentries. (assuming a sentry boat would be preferred over a rail boat)

6) Tank boost buff while bastioned

7) Possibly a resist buff while bastioned

8) ewar immunity

9) A) MJD cycle bonus
B) Range bonus (150-200km range)
C) Able to select a range (anything 50km or more)

10) unable to receive remote assistance

11) (possible suggestion I read) - only bastion ships may assist each other
(my change to it) - with cap assistance and nothing else.


This would mean that you have a PVP boat that has pve potential with a role being specifically a brawler. It would be niche while being used in some pve situations.
However, the Bastioned mode would be a PVE focused boat with it's role being a tanky, sniper. It would be niche in pvp, but highly effective in certain situations such as breaking small roams, breaking small to med gate camps, and bait.

You would be required to commit, which is why I have proposed it being more like a sub system, so that once it's fitted, you're stuck in that role, instead of being able to simply online/offline a module, or simply swap a script.
No ship should have the capability of changing roles on a whim.

Alternately, those of you stating that the marauders need to be more versatile that t1, navy, or pirate didn't take a look when CCP stated the design plans of ships.
T2 ships are focused, t1 ships are versatile, navy are more focused than t1 and more versatile than t2, while pirate were designed to have the ultimate versatility with utility.(or something along that lines(was a long time ago))

I feel this is the best way to design marauders.

Now, with the Bastion module having a slot specifically for it, it would mean that other ships could be modified to allow a bastion module.

Black Ops BS's
Orca
Mining Barges/exhumers
Industrials
Noctis
Primus
Freighters

Basically, every ship would be different when fitting a bastion module.
I.E.
Hulk - range bonus at the cost of yield (reach a whole belt from warp in point)
Mack - Mine gas and take no damage at all, can't mine ore/ice.
Those are just some possible Bastion effects.