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Balancing Feedback: Capital Ships

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Lucius Razor
RazorEnterprise
#261 - 2011-11-14 17:55:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucius Razor
The problem never lied in the SuperCarriers in the first place.

If u take the ISK for 100 SCs and invest them into Maelstroms, boy you could massacre them in seconds.

The problem is that the server will not support such numbers (25.000.000.000 / 250.000.000 = 100 * 100 = 10.000).

10.000 x 11.302 Damage per Volley (EFT, All Level V, Maelstrom with 8x 1400 T2 + RF EMP + 3 Gyros) = 113.020.000 Alpha Damage.

=> I need MORE EHP on that Aeon tbh. because they could insta it.

The numbers (on paper) are pretty ok for SCs. The problem is that the game mechanics and current technological level for servers and internet do not allow for a balanced game play in that regard.

************

I allready offered you a solution to most of the problems: REMOVE FIGHTER BOMBERS.

That way dreadnoughts will again be able to stand up against them as the Fighters DPS wont be enough to grind through their HP fast enough, while i will be able to protect my own dread fleet from subcaps with my drone swarm.

After patch i wont be able to protect anyone with my Aeon while i will need all protection i can get, thus forcing me into the biggest of blobbs to make sure i wont lose it.

Also, the Aeon will be limited to one role, and one role only. Currently if i wish it, i can go run (some of the) Level 5s with it, i can run anomalies, i can even mine with Mining Drones (think of it, whatever you want, but having something to do while you wait for the next deployment is nice).

I can use it to actually get some ISK back out of it.

If the patch goes through, i will end up with a useless charackter in a useless ship.

This all would not be as much of a problem if we could dock. When SCs got OP, i thought *meh*, stored the Dread in a save place and went over to fly whatever else was needed. But storing the Aeon in a save place and use the char for something else is not possible ATM.

Leaving only one choice to me, stop playing with this char (and stop paying for the account it is on).

To be realy honest: I want the good old times back.

Times where it was fun flying Sniper BS. Times when 0.0 looked like an old rag rug and i almost did **** my pants when someone screamed *TITAN ON GRID* in TS.

Now when i hear titan on grid i think *Yay, Big KM to get!!* This shouldnt be case. 0.0 warfare was way more fun before dominion. At least POS Ping Pong gave you plenty of oportunities for fights at all day and night times. Although we lost it, i had plenty of fun during Delve II and the first weeks of the Fountain Invasion.
StukaBee
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#262 - 2011-11-14 17:57:02 UTC
Lucius Razor wrote:
A SupCap Fleet should pretty damn well have trouble scratching a SuperCap. And btw.: I didnt add the term *Super* to the whole thing.


Why?

(If you reply "because it cost a lot of isk" I'm going to laugh at you)

Quote:
If you want to engage Caps, bring other Caps. You dont fight Tanks with Martial Arts attacks, you take another tank.

As we dont have urban warfare in Eve, just *open field*, *Infantry* (SubCaps) should pretty damn well have hard time taking on the Armored Cavalery (Capitals).

Since the last 65 years or so the optimal method of destroying tanks has been with an airstrike.

If the supercap is Eve's tank, what is Eve's airstrike?

Quote:
And just to make one point clear: When i joined WN i brought the Aeon with me. Just look at my employment history andf check some Killboards.

So you bandwagoned into the Supercap blob for easy ganks and low-risk wins and now you're upset because the easy ganks and low risk wins won't be quite so easy or low risk. Gotcha.

lol

Quote:
And yes, i got the Aeon pretty late. But that is because it was a huge inventement in both time and ISK (and i had to pay it all alone).

If CCP wants SCs out of the game, fine. But than offer us at least something for the money and time we invested until this point into the SuperCaps.

The Aeon is worth around 2000€ (calculated with 350 Mio./Plex). If you have 2000€ to throw out of the window, you can send them to CCP so they convert them to ISK and i'll be happy to use that selfdestruct button once i recieve them.

The value of your investments may fall as well as rise.

Should have read the small print.

Quote:
EDIT: Oh and btw.: There are actually people out there who play the game because they want to fly huge, powerfull ships. Not everyone wants to fly rifters all day long.

EDIT2: And the next question for you: Why should i bother with 0.0 at all in the first place if the reason for me to be there is removed? I moved out to 0.0 to fly caps. If caps and supercaps are changed in the current proposed way there will be one less reason to move out to 0.0.
I dont say its the only reason to be there, but at least it is one. And i am pretty sure that i am not the only one who flys Caps because he likes to fly Caps.

Your supercap is still a huge powerful ship. But if you're so risk averse, and so untrusting in the abilities of your alliance mates to field a subcap fleet that can keep your supercaps safe, maybe 0.0 isn't for you after all.

Bye.
Lucius Razor
RazorEnterprise
#263 - 2011-11-14 18:16:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucius Razor
Erm.. sry to correct you Gooncrybaby, but i never joined WN.

I joined FALG, where i had friends since my time in Skunk Works and the times of the first MAX Campaign. Tbh.: As long as the Alliance i am in is shooting Goonswarm, it is a good alliance.

Oh, and just btw.: I know that goonswarm did lobby a lot to get this nerf through in hopes it will prevent them from their fate of again being thrown out of 0.0. Because this time there is no NC to give you some space for nothing. But it wont change the outcome. I wonder if we go again against you, if you will actually at least try to put up a fight or again run as fast as you can like you did when we came back to take Delve.

EDIT:

Btw.: Someone mentioned US Carriers:

The Carrier can deploy its own awacs, its fighters can attack any air, ground or sea target, it carries marines for land raids or capture operations and helicopters for anti submarine warfare.

In fact, i think you should give my aeon the abilities of a US Nimitz Class Carrier and i would be pretty damn happy. Start with adding enough room on my mutiple kilometers ship for 90 Fighters that double as Bombers. Oh, and not to forget the Missile Launcher Tubes and CIWS.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nimitz_class_aircraft_carrier

And btw.: i never took part in a fleet where SuperCaps where deployed without any kind of support fleet around. Most of the time the Subcaps do most of the fighting while the SCs are on standby.
Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#264 - 2011-11-14 19:02:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincent Gaines
Lucius Razor wrote:
Erm.. sry to correct you Gooncrybaby, but i never joined WN.

I joined FALG, where i had friends since my time in Skunk Works and the times of the first MAX Campaign. Tbh.: As long as the Alliance i am in is shooting Goonswarm, it is a good alliance.

Oh, and just btw.: I know that goonswarm did lobby a lot to get this nerf through in hopes it will prevent them from their fate of again being thrown out of 0.0. Because this time there is no NC to give you some space for nothing. But it wont change the outcome. I wonder if we go again against you, if you will actually at least try to put up a fight or again run as fast as you can like you did when we came back to take Delve.

EDIT:

Btw.: Someone mentioned US Carriers:

The Carrier can deploy its own awacs, its fighters can attack any air, ground or sea target, it carries marines for land raids or capture operations and helicopters for anti submarine warfare.

In fact, i think you should give my aeon the abilities of a US Nimitz Class Carrier and i would be pretty damn happy. Start with adding enough room on my mutiple kilometers ship for 90 Fighters that double as Bombers. Oh, and not to forget the Missile Launcher Tubes and CIWS.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nimitz_class_aircraft_carrier

And btw.: i never took part in a fleet where SuperCaps where deployed without any kind of support fleet around. Most of the time the Subcaps do most of the fighting while the SCs are on standby.


Dude, WN was just a small group in NPC space dwellers until they decided to hop on the supercap train with the rest of the DRF.

Skipping over your goon crying (as a MM member I'm sick of the goon cries.. get over the conspiracy crap) you failed to mention:

Carrier Battle Group

Quote:
CSG or CVBG normally consist of 1 Aircraft Carrier, 2 Guided Missile Cruisers, 2 Anti Aircraft Warships, and 1-2 Anti Submarine Destroyers or Frigates.[


A carrier has limited resources while the aircraft (i.e. fighters/bombers) provide the offensive capibility. The groups support and enhance the group's mission as a whole.


You are debating that the supercarrier should be a solo ship.... this is against what ANY capship is supposed to be.

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#265 - 2011-11-14 19:35:10 UTC
Lucius Razor wrote:
The problem never lied in the SuperCarriers in the first place.

If u take the ISK for 100 SCs and invest them into Maelstroms, boy you could massacre them in seconds.

The problem is that the server will not support such numbers (25.000.000.000 / 250.000.000 = 100 * 100 = 10.000).

10.000 x 11.302 Damage per Volley (EFT, All Level V, Maelstrom with 8x 1400 T2 + RF EMP + 3 Gyros) = 113.020.000 Alpha Damage.



In other news, a hurricane (lets say 50M) cant kill 50M of t1 rifters! (Thats 100 rifters, doing about 10000 dps).

A maelstrom dies to its own worth in frigates AND in cruisers! A thanatos dies to its own worth in frigates, cruisers AND battlecruisers!
Mioelnir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#266 - 2011-11-14 19:39:40 UTC
As long as Dreadnought mechanics are balanced against RMR Deathstar POSes with near-infinite tracking guns inside forcefields, no capital ship vs ship balance will ever be achieved.
StukaBee
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#267 - 2011-11-14 20:21:11 UTC
Lucius Razor wrote:
Oh, and just btw.: I know that goonswarm did lobby a lot to get this nerf through in hopes it will prevent them from their fate of again being thrown out of 0.0. Because this time there is no NC to give you some space for nothing. But it wont change the outcome. I wonder if we go again against you, if you will actually at least try to put up a fight or again run as fast as you can like you did when we came back to take Delve.


Just fyi, the last time an elite supercap blobbing alliance tried to kick us out of Deklein, long after the NC had lost their space and scattered, we cockpunched them so hard that the campaign leader sold all his accounts and quit Eve in humiliation.
Lucius Razor
RazorEnterprise
#268 - 2011-11-14 20:33:12 UTC
StukaBee wrote:
Lucius Razor wrote:
Oh, and just btw.: I know that goonswarm did lobby a lot to get this nerf through in hopes it will prevent them from their fate of again being thrown out of 0.0. Because this time there is no NC to give you some space for nothing. But it wont change the outcome. I wonder if we go again against you, if you will actually at least try to put up a fight or again run as fast as you can like you did when we came back to take Delve.


Just fyi, the last time an elite supercap blobbing alliance tried to kick us out of Deklein, long after the NC had lost their space and scattered, we cockpunched them so hard that the campaign leader sold all his accounts and quit Eve in humiliation.


Pardon me to correct you again, but crashing the server is not the same as actually fighting.
Gol'dar
Dar Inc.
#269 - 2011-11-14 20:36:47 UTC
@Iam Widdershins

Role: "The same as it was supposed to be originally: A huge anti-capital DPS machine. You do the same DPS as or more than most Dreads (seriously, they aren't all going to be gank fit) without the requirement to enter siege mode or worry about range"

ok, in my history there were only alliances with fleetfittings - all off them with 3 damagemods on dreadnoughts, one alliance with an additional range rig. Faction damagemods were optional in all alliances. But, maybe other alliances fly other setups. 3 damage mods + t2 siege (this will be a "nice to have" for the first time, but later?) = more dps as the (same race) supercarrier with carrier 5 + fighter bomber 5.
And don't forget: a) fighter/fighter bomber can be killed, the moros' siege blaster cannon can't; b) you have only 30 carrier drones in your bay.
But you are right, this is one role for the supercarrier. the other one is structure grinding. Field one supercarrier or 6-8 dreadnoughts (or maybe 12 after insurance) - the choice is yours. And fielding a decent capfleet is not the problem for a nullsec-alliance.

cost of tier3-bc: my last check of the tornado-bpo says: 40M hullcost with me0 and TQ Jita sellorder. It should be possible to buy a fittet tier 3 for 60M - of course not in the first days after this patch.

@Vincent Gaines,

you are right with some things, you say.
But: I can't see a great problem fielding 50x20B vs fielding 100x0,3B - the difference of fielded isk is to big (20 carriers vs 200 frigates would be the same). 50 supercarriers on one side and 100 dreads on the other side is not the problem of the supercarrier. In my opinion, 25+50 vs 25+50 would be better. But this is politic and not game machanics and not ship balancing.

You say: bring support. Ok, how many support is necessary to protect this helpless group of, hmm, 20 supercarrier? 100 subcaps? 200? If you can field 200+ ships, it would be better to field 80 dreadnoughts with an limited support. Same or more damage, but lesser isk-risk.

As I said in my first post - the sc-nerf was necessary. You are right with "they remove the roles of several other classes of ships". But a nerf to make them not better in ANY role? Where is the "Super"? Super, You can't dock? Not really! In one role they must be superior. They are also "super"carrier.
Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#270 - 2011-11-14 20:53:01 UTC
Gol'dar wrote:

@Vincent Gaines,

you are right with some things, you say.
But: I can't see a great problem fielding 50x20B vs fielding 100x0,3B - the difference of fielded isk is to big (20 carriers vs 200 frigates would be the same). 50 supercarriers on one side and 100 dreads on the other side is not the problem of the supercarrier. In my opinion, 25+50 vs 25+50 would be better. But this is politic and not game machanics and not ship balancing.


I'm not sure I follow. You can't compare numbers vs numbers to determine balance. Either way, no dread can stand up to a supercarrier with fighterbombers.

Quote:
You say: bring support. Ok, how many support is necessary to protect this helpless group of, hmm, 20 supercarrier? 100 subcaps? 200? If you can field 200+ ships, it would be better to field 80 dreadnoughts with an limited support. Same or more damage, but lesser isk-risk.


How much would I bring? For ever 2-3 supers at least 1 dedicated carrier to support.

Depends on the size. I can't give you numbers unless you give me a situation. Provide me an example of what I'd be going up against (either actual or projected)

Quote:

As I said in my first post - the sc-nerf was necessary. You are right with "they remove the roles of several other classes of ships". But a nerf to make them not better in ANY role? Where is the "Super"? Super, You can't dock? Not really! In one role they must be superior. They are also "super"carrier.


They are super. They can rip capital ships (dreads, carriers, rorqs, titans, other SCs) to shreads. I mean, tear through them like butter.

Dreads are not an anti ship DPS platform. They can't hit a target smaller than a tower and some even have trouble doing that. They can't put out any damage without entering siege in which the ship is stuck for 10 minutes and cannot be repped. And on top of that no tank can survive a DD.


Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.
Mioelnir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#271 - 2011-11-14 22:22:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Mioelnir
So, just toyed a bit on Sisi.

- the -10% shield HP instead of -20%, which I assume to have been balanced around the wyvern, did very little for the Hel.
- the cap situation got a bit better assuming you start the fight with full cap
- Hel vs 2 "regular (t2)" TQ Naglfars, all 3 ships with regular +10% gangbonus and starting at full shields, the Hel was at 61% shields after both Nagls were down (Hel doing bugger all, Nagls boosting and overheating hardeners). So, extrapolating from that, Hel vs 3 of them would have ended with the Hel at 22% shields, and Hel vs 4 of them with 3 dead dreads and a dead Hel (Hel fitting was 7 hardeners, dc II, t2 rigs and 4 PDU). Not sure what I expected, but considering dreads are easily replaceable due to station manufacturing and well below a billion in cost after insurance, a bit more / something else / not 4.
This is, after all, the weightclass it is now supposed to fight in.

So, my resume, after creating and dedicating an account to a Hel pilot purpose-skilled from day 1 for over 3.5 years now, I am happy with my decision from a few weeks ago to move the better parts of the hel's fitting to highsec for sale and train a parking-char to store the ship until there is a market for it again. It's just not worth wasting a 70m SP character on it.

Apart from the new builtin breakage points, the crotches may have gotten overall better, but the three primary roles of a hel on the field - meatshield, good looks and enemy confusion (why did they bring a hel?) - remain unchanged.
Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#272 - 2011-11-14 22:43:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincent Gaines
CCP, my solo carrier can only take on 4 dreadnoughts at once. It's so underpowered!

Take 2 supers, throw in a RR module between them, and see how many dreads you go through.

Comparing ISK values as a means to balance is stupid.

4 rifters can take out an Abaddon, which has more than a 200x cost multiplier. Hell, talking about T2 how about 5 rifters vs a Loki?

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.
Mioelnir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#273 - 2011-11-14 23:14:15 UTC
Yes, when in doubt, bring more numbers. Best base for balancing ever.

Also, it is not a carrier. Carriers I have a few lying around all over eve, produce at will, and switch ships if I don't like it anymore.

Also, which one is T2? The rifter or the loki? You have me confused there.

And, final note, it may be a strange concept to you, but not everybody has enough accounts to simulate an entire fleetfight, so yes, testing with 3 caps is the best I could do. Which, last time I checked, was a lot more than you - if we ignore the wild frothing. All the while; my conclusions that with the +51.2% rep amount of Carrier 5 + Meta Reps over unbonused t1 reps, its tanking type, comparatively low ehp and general state of nullsec pvp it is even more of a priority target that can not be kept even remotely alive are founded on the facts I presented so everyone can weigh them and draw their own conclusions. Your so called "argument" has yet to exceed the "envy" mark.

PS: first time someone publicly called a hel overpowered.
SykWit It
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#274 - 2011-11-14 23:28:02 UTC
as a ex hel pilot i have to say that the current buffs to the hel do jack all to help it in any way.

Hels will always be primaried first in a cap fight before any others because they are shield tanked and have the weakest tank/ buffer of all supers by quite a bit. So with that being said. how dose it help to have a super that gets a bonus to reping when its the first cap dead in a slug fest.

in a fleet of say 30 supers there are probably no more then 2-3 caps with shield transfers. No one flys shild caps b/c they have always been way to week to be worth it. the new nerf to supers makes it so the hel can carry more fighters/ bombers but i still wouldn't get one b/c i would just die in a fight when no one has shield reps. also we loose up to 37% of our tank every time we jump somewhere our resists can be taken out in a matter of a minute by neuts and there aren't enough of us to warrant people fitting shield transfers on there supers/ carriers.

Now you may say that its the fleets falt for not supporting there caps but think about it... currently the shild supers suck so bad that even receiving reps wont help a whyvern or Hel survive when its neuted. where as a aeon or even a nyx has at least 2 A-type Enams that enable it to have decent resists even when its got no cap. as a side note even wth a full passive fit on a aeon it still has more ehp then a hel with a full x-type fit.

if you where to make the Hel have more desirable bonuses then maybe more people would get one. but as it stand when a super is the first to die in a fight and it cant use its bonus b/c of that.... it makes it a bit useless.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#275 - 2011-11-14 23:30:08 UTC
Mioelnir wrote:
So, just toyed a bit on Sisi.

- the -10% shield HP instead of -20%, which I assume to have been balanced around the wyvern, did very little for the Hel.
- the cap situation got a bit better assuming you start the fight with full cap
- Hel vs 2 "regular (t2)" TQ Naglfars, all 3 ships with regular +10% gangbonus and starting at full shields, the Hel was at 61% shields after both Nagls were down (Hel doing bugger all, Nagls boosting and overheating hardeners). So, extrapolating from that, Hel vs 3 of them would have ended with the Hel at 22% shields, and Hel vs 4 of them with 3 dead dreads and a dead Hel (Hel fitting was 7 hardeners, dc II, t2 rigs and 4 PDU). Not sure what I expected, but considering dreads are easily replaceable due to station manufacturing and well below a billion in cost after insurance, a bit more / something else / not 4.
This is, after all, the weightclass it is now supposed to fight in.

So, my resume, after creating and dedicating an account to a Hel pilot purpose-skilled from day 1 for over 3.5 years now, I am happy with my decision from a few weeks ago to move the better parts of the hel's fitting to highsec for sale and train a parking-char to store the ship until there is a market for it again. It's just not worth wasting a 70m SP character on it.

Apart from the new builtin breakage points, the crotches may have gotten overall better, but the three primary roles of a hel on the field - meatshield, good looks and enemy confusion (why did they bring a hel?) - remain unchanged.


Great, so you proved that the supercarrier isnt able to solo multiple dreadnaughts. Now take into account actual fleet conditions, where the dreadnaughts cant get any RR and the supercarrier can be repped all day long.
Iam Widdershins
Project Nemesis
#276 - 2011-11-15 00:30:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Iam Widdershins
Gol'dar wrote:
You say: bring support. Ok, how many support is necessary to protect this helpless group of, hmm, 20 supercarrier? 100 subcaps? 200? If you can field 200+ ships, it would be better to field 80 dreadnoughts with an limited support. Same or more damage, but lesser isk-risk.

As I said in my first post - the sc-nerf was necessary. You are right with "they remove the roles of several other classes of ships". But a nerf to make them not better in ANY role? Where is the "Super"? Super, You can't dock? Not really! In one role they must be superior. They are also "super"carrier.

I know you're a reasonable guy for the most part but, TBH, cry me a river. If you want to fly one of the biggest most badass DPS machines with awesome built-in ECM burst and Ewar immunity, but can't accept any drawbacks or inconveniences (needing to have support with you, being unable to dock, can't alpha Frigates with light scout drones any more boo hoo) -- cry me a river bro.

If I were actually interested in capital warfare and was willing to slaughter a fatted toon to keep it piloted, I'd actually train for one even now. They're great.

I'm not trying to make you mad or insult you, I'm just saying, complaints are hardly warranted.

Lobbying for your right to delete your signature
Oljud Zork
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#277 - 2011-11-15 00:45:06 UTC
Alkina wrote:
The change for Shield capitals is ok, but if you add a Slave set for shields, its going to ruin all your balancing you've just done. Either leave them without an implant set (Nomads work amazingly well here), or nerf them in line with, or moreso than the others along wiht the set. And please, if your going to do that, make the penaly for using them a 30-50% reduction in shield recharge to discourage sub-caps from them for a rediculous passive tank.



Oljud Zork wrote:
Well, without any Sentry drones is it kind of hard to hit a POS tower, since as far as I know neither Fighters nor Fighter Bombers can hit the tower...

Any changes on that?

// Zork




You've got a anti-capital ship that can hit Battleships reasonably well, thats its role. Dont try to get it to do more than what it excells at.

Everyone in this thread is bitter than you've lost your clearly overpowered jack of all trades, and keep wanting life to go back to the way it was. No, you dont need a ship that can hit PoS's, thats a Dreadnaught / Titan's job, so why do you ask to do so? Even if you got the ability to shoot towers with sentries, what is the point? Let the ships designed for the job do it, and use your ship for what it does well, killing and incapping the Mods, or defending them from Capital / BS sized targets.

Your Mothership isnt a swiss army knife anymore, get over it.

And for those using Bombers to hit subcaps, its maybe time for Darwin's Theory to smite you from on high...



Yes I want it to go back to what it once was, before the introduction of the Fighter Bombers. IMO the major flaw with Super Carriers are their insane DPS against capitals and structures (except POS towers) when deploying Fighter Bombers.

By removing Fighter Bombers will Super Carriers only deal 2k dps with Fighters and that are the same dps as fielding two regular carriers...


what's the point with fielding Dreads that just gets torn to shreds when the hostile Super Carrier's are fielded?? What?


The Dreads should IMO be the major damage dealing ship in a Capital fight, not Super Carriers. Super Carriers should be the endgame for carrier pilots.

Suggested Fix:

  • Bring on the intended change to LoggOff timer!
  • Tweak the eHP as intended for fixing the shield supers.
  • Remove the Fighter Bombers entirely from the game and reimburse the SP trained in FB's.
  • Keep the ability to field 20 vanilla drones or Fighters.
  • Keep the EWAR immunity and the ability to remote repair.


    • No, I am not going to cry over that all the "overpowered jack of all trades" SC's will be nerfed in some way this winter. It is simply back to the basic of Darwin's theory "Evolve or die, those who refuse will be victims of evolution"

    Flame on! Lol


    // Zork
    Mioelnir
    Brutor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #278 - 2011-11-15 00:50:27 UTC
    Michael Harari wrote:
    Great, so you proved that the supercarrier isnt able to solo multiple dreadnaughts. Now take into account actual fleet conditions, where the dreadnaughts cant get any RR and the supercarrier can be repped all day long.


    Considering that's a game mechanic, it doesn't need to be proven. With the current mechanics, where dread tanks are balanced against RMR POS weapons, dreads will die when engaging supercaps. Just like jsut about every other active tanked gang versus a remote-rep gang.
    And just like a small group of capitals/supercapitals will always melt if you throw 150+ of basically whatever on top.

    Balancing is about the ratios of involved ships at which point a fight ensues that is engaging for both parties. And single-ship performance is a valid metric for that. How many dreads die per super, so that both sides consider the fight winnable / worth their while and stay on field. If 20 dreads pop per super, the dread fleet will leave as soon as siege allows. If it's a one dread for one super exchange, the supers will leave as soon as the bubbles allow.
    The dreads trying to apply as much dps at the beginning of the engagement as possible, when they still pack the heaviest punch. And the RR-caps trying to draw the fight out to reach the point where their RR cannot be broken anymore. Both are boring scenarios with very little entropy since their results are known. The middle of the fight is the engaging part.

    From your point of view, trading 3 dreads for a mom may be a lot. From my point of view, it's nothing. And a rifter is expensive for a rookie. Perception is subjective. Get used to it.

    We had the old moms that favored the initial burst dps due to even trade numbers, when moms folded in seconds to bad cough and never had any chance to draw the fight into the rr-war. Now we have the supercarriers that can ride into that rr stage too easily bringing us to the point where it is impossible to field the proper counter ratio. And that was generally the right idea given the goal of making supercapitals more viable, since an imbalance at that end of the spektrum is easier to manage.

    A 1:2 ratio might seem prudent for 200 supercarriers vs 400 dreads leading to mutually assured destruction. But should 20 dreads wipe 10 supers? Similarly, a 1:6 ratio might look good for 10 supers vs 60 dreads to some, since these are everyday fleetsizes. But how about 200 supers vs 1200 dreads?
    Personally, I consider 3 dead dreads too low, and 6 too high. 4.5 dead dreads to dead supers might, or might not, be a good number based on that.

    "Fairness" will never scale linearly (unless eve introduces instanced fight areas with fixed participants per side). This is all about the placement of the turning points, where unfair to A turns into fair, and fair turns into unfair to B. The envelope in which a fight is created, that players fight to determine the winner. And not threadnought the forums. The current whine-noughts are about making nearly everything unfair to supers, a few spots that were forgotten to whine about fair, and nothing unfair to non-supers. That is not balancing, so stop calling it that.

    "Iam Widdershins" wrote:
    If you want to fly one of the biggest most badass DPS machines with awesome built-in ECM burst and Ewar immunity, but can't accept any drawbacks or inconveniences
    But let's be fair here, most supercarrier pilots that exposed themselves as such in all the threads leading up to this were pretty unanimous in that the remote ecm burst needed rebalancing more direly than supercapital EHP since it creates a much bigger problem in large groups, especially now that it does not affect supercap logistic anymore.
    Michael Harari
    Genos Occidere
    HYDRA RELOADED
    #279 - 2011-11-15 01:18:33 UTC
    Mioelnir wrote:
    . And single-ship performance is a valid metric for that.


    No, its not. Supercarriers scale much better than dreadnaughts, since they can get RR and sieged dreads cannot.
    Draconus Lofwyr
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #280 - 2011-11-15 01:51:05 UTC
    and now the "final" changes are on SISI for testing with narry a word in the last few weeks about any further changes or something to compensate the super pilots for the now practically worthless E-Peen they are permanently stuck in again. The sup[per buff was meant as a way to make these ships useful, and now this is returning them to worthlessness. If the updates go through as currently on SISI, can they all be allowed to dock once so they can be permanently mothballed?