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GM clarification on rewording of the Terms of Service

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Malcolm Shinhwa
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#181 - 2013-09-10 23:45:50 UTC
Why make a new post to say exactly the same thing as the last GM post and not even try to address the concerns raised? Just say "htfu" and be done with it.

For all the weasel words we're left with a rule that by the plain meaning of the words bans most nefarious acts in Eve. Well except for isk doublers in Jita, thank god they were spared.

[i]"The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more important than the shield and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental[/i]."
Georgina Parmala
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#182 - 2013-09-10 23:50:47 UTC
Malcolm Shinhwa wrote:
For all the weasel words we're left with a rule that by the plain meaning of the words bans most nefarious acts in Eve. Well except for isk doublers in Jita, thank god they were spared.

Only until I start a legitimate ISK doubling service (capped at 5 isk, one lifetime play per character) and then report them for impersonating me and tarnishing my good name with their scams.

Science and Trade Institute [STI] is an NPC entity and as such my views do not represent those of the entity or any of its members

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=276984&p=38
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#183 - 2013-09-10 23:51:39 UTC
Malcolm Shinhwa wrote:
Why make a new post to say exactly the same thing as the last GM post and not even try to address the concerns raised? Just say "htfu" and be done with it.

Because now everything left in the other thread can be ignored, and people won't repost it all here.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#184 - 2013-09-10 23:53:13 UTC
Georgina Parmala wrote:
Mara Pahrdi wrote:
Blizzard has been extremely successful with these baby steps in WoW. "At this point in time we have no plans to..."

You mean like how one year they make an april fools joke out of how ******** the idea of gear score is http://www.wowwiki.com/Equipment_Potency_EquivalencE_Number

Then proceed to not only include it in game as an attribute on the character sheet, but actually use it as a content entry restriction feature.

Tera Online does this.

Equipment Level or something

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#185 - 2013-09-10 23:54:41 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Plastic Psycho wrote:
I can see why they decline - Trying to get specific absent real-world cases means they expose themselves to endless nit-picking and lawyering.

Which you KNOW we'd do.
Which I'd still like to have a chance to take a crack at - if only to define the edges of what's permissible or not.



The flip side is that, without it, the only method of finding out what actions are where on the line is to perform testing.
Since there's no real starting point besides "someone lied about something" for the set of things that may be over the line, the number of tests required to find the line would likely be enormous. And since it's a TOS violation to share the results of said testing, that means that each and every player has to perform that testing themselves.

Inviting that kind of onslaught of petitions seems like a bad idea.


@GM Grimmi, if you can't clarify the new rule, can you at least clarify the old rule? Or how about describe what what lacking in the old wording, so we can see what kind of new circumstances this new rule is meant to encompass.

PS: Claiming that the wording of a rule was changed for no reason at all*, and expecting us to believe that is ridiculous.


*If a changed wording is not meant to represent a changed meaning, why would you change the wording? If it was solely a "clarification," why can't you describe what situations it's clarifying?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Georgina Parmala
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#186 - 2013-09-10 23:56:28 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Georgina Parmala wrote:
Mara Pahrdi wrote:
Blizzard has been extremely successful with these baby steps in WoW. "At this point in time we have no plans to..."

You mean like how one year they make an april fools joke out of how ******** the idea of gear score is http://www.wowwiki.com/Equipment_Potency_EquivalencE_Number

Then proceed to not only include it in game as an attribute on the character sheet, but actually use it as a content entry restriction feature.

Tera Online does this.

Equipment Level or something

I liked E-PEEN better

Science and Trade Institute [STI] is an NPC entity and as such my views do not represent those of the entity or any of its members

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=276984&p=38
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#187 - 2013-09-11 00:00:17 UTC
Malcolm Shinhwa wrote:
Why make a new post to say exactly the same thing as the last GM post and not even try to address the concerns raised? Just say "htfu" and be done with it.

For all the weasel words we're left with a rule that by the plain meaning of the words bans most nefarious acts in Eve. Well except for isk doublers in Jita, thank god they were spared.


Yeah I gotta say I'm really not impressed with this response. There was no real follow-through here: a boilerplate statement, and then a statement that "well we can't answer any questions".

I'm pretty much left with the impression this was solely a delaying tactic and GM Grimmi is neither reading nor responding to any of the concerns.

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#188 - 2013-09-11 00:07:04 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Malcolm Shinhwa wrote:
Why make a new post to say exactly the same thing as the last GM post and not even try to address the concerns raised? Just say "htfu" and be done with it.

For all the weasel words we're left with a rule that by the plain meaning of the words bans most nefarious acts in Eve. Well except for isk doublers in Jita, thank god they were spared.


Yeah I gotta say I'm really not impressed with this response. There was no real follow-through here: a boilerplate statement, and then a statement that "well we can't answer any questions".

I'm pretty much left with the impression this was solely a delaying tactic and GM Grimmi is neither reading nor responding to any of the concerns.

Do you have the impression that it is a successful delaying tactic?

Such strategies have been efficient in the past

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#189 - 2013-09-11 00:07:53 UTC
Georgina Parmala wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Georgina Parmala wrote:
Mara Pahrdi wrote:
Blizzard has been extremely successful with these baby steps in WoW. "At this point in time we have no plans to..."

You mean like how one year they make an april fools joke out of how ******** the idea of gear score is http://www.wowwiki.com/Equipment_Potency_EquivalencE_Number

Then proceed to not only include it in game as an attribute on the character sheet, but actually use it as a content entry restriction feature.

Tera Online does this.

Equipment Level or something

I liked E-PEEN better

I was Item Level actually, ILEVEL

Works very much like the troll EPEEN number hilariously

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Maraner
The Executioners
#190 - 2013-09-11 00:08:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Maraner
EVE is not supposed to be like other MMO's It is supposed to be a harsh playground for grown ups and is supposed to come with lying, cheating, deception etc etc.

And now it looks like that is a TOS violation. Fantastic.

Do you guys not realize what you have? You have a real point of difference from other MMO's and it looks like your trying to throw that away. I once talked someone to coming to a gate to help me out, I lied and cheated this guy into getting into a position that we could kill his ship. It was great, afterwards we all had a good laugh at it including the guy that was ganked (yes seriously) he called me a mupper - fair point too. These days apparently he could petition my actions and possibly get me banned.

Fantastic.


Are you guys nuts.


Do you want another **** storm, don't risk that environment of cheating, lying and scamming that makes this game great, it provides color and atmosphere that your dreary PVE content never will. The fact that you can go to Jita and get robbed is a testament to the game and it's depth. For myself I have no issue if I am dumb enough to get scammed then well done to that individual - this game is about buyer be ware, not oops it's a TOS violation here is you stuff back.

CCP had better re-think this stance with a degree of speed. Why do I get the feeling that the CSM has been ignored on this? was it not at all predictable that the community would have this response? Is your bottom line really going to be improved by removing this activity from the game? because harsh environment is what this game is about, and if you go ahead and cut it's balls off by changing the TOS to make it a padded room, then the next time you advertise yourself as a sandbox MMO with real consequences I will petition your lying ass for a TOS violation. Cretins
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#191 - 2013-09-11 00:12:34 UTC
Maraner wrote:
Do you guys not realize what you have? You have a real point of difference from other MMO's and it looks like your trying to throw that away. I once talked someone to coming to a gate to help me out, I lied and cheated this guy into getting into a position that we could kill his ship. It was great, afterwards we all had a good laugh at it including the guy that was ganked (yes seriously) he called me a mupper - fair point too. These days apparently he could petition my actions and possibly get me banned.

Fantastic.

The new eve online, harsh and cold if you're a scammer

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Orakkus
ImperiaI Federation
Goonswarm Federation
#192 - 2013-09-11 00:33:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Orakkus
GM Grimmi wrote:
We cannot go into specifics as each report is different and this will just end up leading into a circular argument of “ifs” and “buts”. We will say that impersonation cases are handled on a case by case basis by experienced GMs and there is no change in how such cases will be handled from now from how they were handled a year ago.


So, just for the sake of argument.. how were they handled a year ago as compared to say two, or even five years ago?

I'm sorry, but the more I read your responses, the more I feel like we are being strung along. Having dealt with lawyers the last couple years for RL business, what you've said reminds me of the "wiggle" words to cover your own backside if something goes wrong. Like punishing "person A", while disregarding what "person B" has done, which is the exact same thing. The tone of your response seems very.. well, condescending. I'll save my judgement on that for later, however, as I already get to put someone down in real life for a similiar attitude. Big smile

What also seems to have been ignored is that many of the players CAME TO Eve Online because of those very scams, those very double-crossing schemes that made Eve Online different, alive, and challenging. Those scams and double-crosses GOT PICKED UP BY REAL LIFE NEWS ORGANIZATIONS!! They gave Eve public notice. Now, I could understand if you were ban out of game scams that were Eve related.. but trying to stop it in game? Seriously? Making the TOS related to in game operations makes me wonder if you know or remember what game you are a game master for...

You do play Eve Online?... right, Grimmi?

He's not just famous, he's "IN" famous. - Ned Nederlander
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#193 - 2013-09-11 00:41:05 UTC
GM Grimmi wrote:
"Clarification" removed for brevity.


Yo dawg, you might notta herd, but we like come clarification, so why don't you put some clarification in your clarification, so you can clarify while you clarify.
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#194 - 2013-09-11 00:44:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Poetic Stanziel
Susan Black wrote:

(from an EVE Online knowledgebase article on Scams.)

DON'T TRUST ANYONE. It's a tough galaxy out there, and anyone could betray you.

Make sure that the person you are doing business with is who he says he is.
EVE-Online has a unique naming policy, making it impossible for more than one player to have the same name. However, names may be very similar, and it is a good idea to be 100% certain that the party you are dealing with is the real thing. Also, never believe someone who says he is an alternate character of someone you know but doesn't offer any proper proof.


Until now. Now the GMs will do all the hard-work of investigation for you.

ENTITLEMENT syndrome. It's not just for bittervets anymore.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#195 - 2013-09-11 00:46:51 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Until now. Now the GMs will do all the hard-work of investigation for you.


Or simply just ban you after glossing over the petition.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
GM Karidor
Game Masters
C C P Alliance
#196 - 2013-09-11 00:49:02 UTC
Just popping into here quickly to ask some patience in this matter and to please hold your horses, at least until tomorrow. We are currently in the process of writing something up that will (hopefully) give you some better insight regarding this ToS change and clear up some misunderstandings. I hope to have this done until tomorrow around noon (GMT), but will update here should there be any further delay.

GM Karidor | Senior Game Master
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#197 - 2013-09-11 01:03:24 UTC
GM Karidor wrote:
Just popping into here quickly to ask some patience in this matter and to please hold your horses, at least until tomorrow. We are currently in the process of writing something up that will (hopefully) give you some better insight regarding this ToS change and clear up some misunderstandings. I hope to have this done until tomorrow around noon (GMT), but will update here should there be any further delay.


Remember that time you guys spent an entire day on a statement that said basically nothing? I'm pretty sure that was yesterday.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#198 - 2013-09-11 01:04:53 UTC
Second time's the charm.

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal
Landredas
Insectopia
#199 - 2013-09-11 01:08:12 UTC
GM Grimmi wrote:
Greetings pilots,


One concern is that we have pretty much banned all scams in EVE. Clearly, this is not the case.



Honestly it is not clear at all. To suggest otherwise is to be willfully ignorant of player concerns. The new TOS can be interpreted so widely that players are rightfully confused and frustrated. The tools exist in game and out (API key) to check the validity of someones claim to represent a particular group or person. It seems a shame you don't trust the tools you provide. Fix the tools, don't throw a wide reaching amendment into the TOS.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#200 - 2013-09-11 01:36:42 UTC
Landredas wrote:
GM Grimmi wrote:
Greetings pilots,


One concern is that we have pretty much banned all scams in EVE. Clearly, this is not the case.



Honestly it is not clear at all. To suggest otherwise is to be willfully ignorant of player concerns. The new TOS can be interpreted so widely that players are rightfully confused and frustrated. The tools exist in game and out (API key) to check the validity of someones claim to represent a particular group or person. It seems a shame you don't trust the tools you provide. Fix the tools, don't throw a wide reaching amendment into the TOS.


It is pretty clear. If you think the new wording in the TOS (read: not new TOS, same ones as before) is vague, you should have seen it before.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104