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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Wedgetail
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3441 - 2013-09-10 15:53:33 UTC
Doddy wrote:


Its only a 1 minute timer. Hics tackling supers (and even dreads in seige tbh) already have to do the rep kiting (get primaried, turn off mod, tank for a minute, get repped back up, enemy changes primary, mod on again) and its a great mechanic that should be encouraged. It requires actual judgement to use. And people facing them will need to switch targets to try and catch someone with cycle just started, overload to break them before they come out etc just like with triage/seige). Of course at a certain fleet size it will become redundant but for small gang stuff it will work well.


yeah it is only a one minute timer, but you'll never need to redeploy with the range bonuses - you either jump out to range and deploy for the fight and wait to get alphad, or sit on the gate you just jumped in through, deploy and wait to get alphad (whether you MJD or not depends on where the enemy sits)

because this module only ever takes a long range ship and makes it..."more long range" i don't actually need to deploy in the first place to hit anything, i just MJD once if they're past 100km engagement range, or i sit where i am, add to that tracking speed and web bonuses and i don't need to worry about anything coming close to me either....cuz i can hit it regardless of what it does.

i like your idea of the rep kiting and yes that'd be excellent - but the marauders will never have to deal with this, as the only real (read reasonably effective and not suicidal) way to kill one will be to nuke it with other long range guns - it'll have no time to rep, it'll be alive...then a second later dead - and this circumstance holds true deployed or not =/ (because of their already absurd damage projection)
Quintessen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3442 - 2013-09-10 15:55:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Quintessen
I'm not going to read 173 pages of posts to see if this was caught, but it's still wrong so.... it seems like the Amarr and Minmatar resistances are reversed. Shouldn't Minmatar be good against EXP and Amarr be good against EM/Therm as per their local pirate factions?
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#3443 - 2013-09-10 15:56:31 UTC
I would like to suggest one change to how Bastion Mode works that might solve a few issues and open up their use in PVE (Incursion) groups and perhaps prompt a few experiments in fleet doctrines and smaller gang PVP.

Currently Bastion Mode prevents all remote assistance.

I suggest that perhaps it should instead be "Bastion Mode prevents all remote assistance except from other ships in Bastion Mode".

Considering the wealth of utility slots a Marauder has, that opens up some interesting possibilities.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#3444 - 2013-09-10 15:56:53 UTC
You can get alpha'd in anything ,ANYTHING.

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Wedgetail
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3445 - 2013-09-10 15:57:24 UTC
Quintessen wrote:
I'm not going to read 173 pages of posts to see if this was caught, but it's still wrong so.... it seems like the Amarr and Minmatar resistances are reversed. Should Minmatar be good against EXP and Amarr be good against EM/Therm as per their local pirate factions?


resistances are skewed based on who the faction fights:

minmatar oppose amarr and so focus on EM/THERM res

amarr oppose minmatar and so focus on EXPL./KIN res (not really logical given mixed ammo types but ccp logic) :D
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#3446 - 2013-09-10 15:59:23 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
I would like to suggest one change to how Bastion Mode works that might solve a few issues and open up their use in PVE (Incursion) groups and perhaps prompt a few experiments in fleet doctrines and smaller gang PVP.

Currently Bastion Mode prevents all remote assistance.

I suggest that perhaps it should instead be "Bastion Mode prevents all remote assistance except from other ships in Bastion Mode".

Considering the wealth of utility slots a Marauder has, that opens up some interesting possibilities.

that could have some interesting implications.

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Wedgetail
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3447 - 2013-09-10 15:59:33 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
You can get alpha'd in anything ,ANYTHING.


yes you can, and the idea is to remove the fact that group pvp's being reduced to sit still and blap something before it can respond

if there's only one effective way to approach killing an opponent's doctrine, that'll be the only thing anyone uses.
Wedgetail
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3448 - 2013-09-10 16:04:38 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:

I suggest that perhaps it should instead be "Bastion Mode prevents all remote assistance except from other ships in Bastion Mode".

Considering the wealth of utility slots a Marauder has, that opens up some interesting possibilities.



this i like and yes it does, I'd still like to remove the 'isolationist island' effect the ship hull bonuses in tandem with bastion are going to give this ship's tactical options but your thinking's certainly on the right track.
Ishta Drey'auc
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#3449 - 2013-09-10 16:08:22 UTC
Most of this sounds good, however it assumes most people in the Golem use cruise missiles. I prefer to use an afterburner and get in close with torps and rep the damage. This special mode won't help much with those, and the speed penalty will certainly hurt.

Change the marauder bonus for the Golem because there isn't enough room to add a web in the mid slots. By removing the shield rep you take away the ships ability to fly solo in PVE. You are removing the ship from its purpose and nitch. Instead you should fix the HORRIBLE salvaging problem on these ships. Give them a 1000% bonus to salvaging so I don't have to wait 5 cycles for every piece of loot. I removed the salvager and used drones because it simply doesn't work.

Because you are dropping the time for TPs I can't really complain too much about the hits to the Golem (speed and drones). Waiting for those two TPs to cycle is the biggest isk killer on my ship. Thanks for the fix. I'd prefer to keep my two sets of drones but I'm sure you have your reasons for pvp.

I know the cargo is already larger than a normal BS, but could you please add a second and separate cargo bay for ammo?

And for the love of God, please don't make me spend 30 days on a new marauder skill after all that training I've already done to fly this thing.
Wedgetail
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3450 - 2013-09-10 16:21:23 UTC
Ishta Drey'auc wrote:
Most of this sounds good, however it assumes most people in the Golem use cruise missiles. I prefer to use an afterburner and get in close with torps and rep the damage. This special mode won't help much with those, and the speed penalty will certainly hurt.

Change the marauder bonus for the Golem because there isn't enough room to add a web in the mid slots. By removing the shield rep you take away the ships ability to fly solo in PVE. You are removing the ship from its purpose and nitch. Instead you should fix the HORRIBLE salvaging problem on these ships. Give them a 1000% bonus to salvaging so I don't have to wait 5 cycles for every piece of loot. I removed the salvager and used drones because it simply doesn't work.

Because you are dropping the time for TPs I can't really complain too much about the hits to the Golem (speed and drones). Waiting for those two TPs to cycle is the biggest isk killer on my ship. Thanks for the fix. I'd prefer to keep my two sets of drones but I'm sure you have your reasons for pvp.

I know the cargo is already larger than a normal BS, but could you please add a second and separate cargo bay for ammo?

And for the love of God, please don't make me spend 30 days on a new marauder skill after all that training I've already done to fly this thing.


doesn't assume, intends to make long range doctrines the primary focus by increasing their effectiveness well beyond reasonable when compared to close range combat.

and all of the marauders will have space issues, the armor loaded hulls have few mids and'll lose two of them (meaning no one gets tracking computers/tp's to support the long range bonuses, OR they choose to not use web/MJD in favor of more reliable long range weapons)

in both pve and pvp though, damage projection > mobility - if i can hit you from where i stand i don't need to move anywhere - kites work because ships can't project damage well enough to consistently hit targets, marauders are very good at ignoring this little rule, being able to achieve huge range and tracking ability (why the ewar weakness is so important)

marauders aren't 'salvage' ships they're "kill, scoop loot and leg it" ships - not supposed to be a cleanup crew, only there to take the face value useful stuff and leave before someone meaner shows up (yes they can be made to work as a cleanup crew as you say but it's not their job, that's the noctis)
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#3451 - 2013-09-10 16:23:23 UTC
Wedgetail wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:

I suggest that perhaps it should instead be "Bastion Mode prevents all remote assistance except from other ships in Bastion Mode".

Considering the wealth of utility slots a Marauder has, that opens up some interesting possibilities.



this i like and yes it does, I'd still like to remove the 'isolationist island' effect the ship hull bonuses in tandem with bastion are going to give this ship's tactical options but your thinking's certainly on the right track.


Yep, instead of Marauders being single isolated ships it would promote a sort of fortification use for them involving groups of Marauders in Bastion Mode in tight groups supporting each other.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Wedgetail
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3452 - 2013-09-10 16:28:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Wedgetail
Ranger 1 wrote:
Wedgetail wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:

I suggest that perhaps it should instead be "Bastion Mode prevents all remote assistance except from other ships in Bastion Mode".

Considering the wealth of utility slots a Marauder has, that opens up some interesting possibilities.



this i like and yes it does, I'd still like to remove the 'isolationist island' effect the ship hull bonuses in tandem with bastion are going to give this ship's tactical options but your thinking's certainly on the right track.


Yep, instead of Marauders being single isolated ships it would promote a sort of fortification use for them involving groups of Marauders in Bastion Mode in tight groups supporting each other.



it would, but i'd like to see this work at reasonable engagement ranges, if the marauders are doing this 150+ km away from anyone else then there are problems, if the marauders are sitting at the current ("close range weapon") ranges of < 100 km it becomes much more interesting trying to beat them.

bastion with this and a close range focus would make for a very good remote repair battleship doctrine (though i'd suggest to forego the ewar 'immunity' for an ewar 'resistance' as some have suggested if i'm allowing RR into bastioned ships - has to be more than one way to skin the cat fish, and RR chains are broken through ECM, energy nuets or hull bouncing)

[edit]

so when we activate bastion:, we shift rep focus in bastion to RR (disable self rep bonus, enable RR bonus), shift the engagement profile from long range skirmish to close range triage brawl, going from a marauding entity to a siege enduring entity - while still having enough 'weakspots' that we're not completely immune to two thirds of pvp doctrines,

enemy can jam our chains out, (with increased difficulty)
enemy is still 'safe' enough to engage us in capacitor warfare and drain us dry as logistics can sit outside our range and offer support
can get bounced out real easily cuz...we can't control our own movement

and cuz we retain all the current ship bonuses, rely on the module to enact changes, marauders keep the pve efficiency they already have.

..yup..i'm liking this scenario much much more every iteration i run over the top of the last...

[/edit]
Jacob Bok'Kila
Logrotate Inc.
#3453 - 2013-09-10 16:34:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Jacob Bok'Kila
As an amarr, almost started the training for the paladin as i had the option now in skillplans... saw the changes-->glad that "almost" prevented that.

WIth a Nightmare i use the same mjd-tachsnipe tactics (alt/corpmate salvages) as the first iteration suggested. With the transform fun...
With a laser boat, i just skip the missions what has any other factions than sansha/raiders. Whats the point of the t2 resists then? None.
Incursions: resist are fine. But wait! We have the nightmare ingame? Yes. Armor fleets got nearly extinct. No point again.
The palladin hull costs 50% more than the nightmare. No point again.

Edit: Idea:
1) Make 2 "bastion modules" one for PVE and one for PVP (like t3 subsystems)
2) Make the hulls bonuses to give common bonuses
3) Make the 2 new modules to give separate bonuses

You would have a choice to make: brick - not moving - no RR - local tank OR not that hard - moving - no local tank - RR fits
Ravasta Helugo
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#3454 - 2013-09-10 16:55:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Ravasta Helugo
Jacob Bok'Kila wrote:
As an amarr, almost started the training for the paladin as i had the option now in skillplans... saw the changes-->glad that "almost" prevented that.

WIth a Nightmare i use the same mjd-tachsnipe tactics (alt/corpmate salvages) as the first iteration suggested. With the transform fun...
With a laser boat, i just skip the missions what has any other factions than sansha/raiders. Whats the point of the t2 resists then? None.
Incursions: resist are fine. But wait! We have the nightmare ingame? Yes. Armor fleets got nearly extinct. No point again.
The palladin hull costs 50% more than the nightmare. No point again.

The first iteration was definitely more enjoyable looking for missioning, and the latest iteration was most definitely catered to incursions at the expense of literally everything else.

Don't worry though, they're changing stuff around again. My advice: Most of the secondary skills for Marauders I are skills you should train up anyway. Keep the training plan going. I have faith in CCP to get this sorted out.
Jacob Bok'Kila
Logrotate Inc.
#3455 - 2013-09-10 16:58:40 UTC
Ravasta Helugo wrote:
Jacob Bok'Kila wrote:
As an amarr, almost started the training for the paladin as i had the option now in skillplans... saw the changes-->glad that "almost" prevented that.

WIth a Nightmare i use the same mjd-tachsnipe tactics (alt/corpmate salvages) as the first iteration suggested. With the transform fun...
With a laser boat, i just skip the missions what has any other factions than sansha/raiders. Whats the point of the t2 resists then? None.
Incursions: resist are fine. But wait! We have the nightmare ingame? Yes. Armor fleets got nearly extinct. No point again.
The palladin hull costs 50% more than the nightmare. No point again.

The first iteration was definitely more enjoyable looking for missioning, and the latest iteration was most definitely catered to incursions at the expense of literally everything else.

Don't worry though, they're changing stuff around again. My advice: Most of the secondary skills for Marauders I are skills you should train up anyway. Keep the training plan going. I have faith in CCP to get this sorted out.



AWU 5 is not essential right now.
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#3456 - 2013-09-10 17:13:31 UTC
Ravasta Helugo wrote:
Jacob Bok'Kila wrote:
As an amarr, almost started the training for the paladin as i had the option now in skillplans... saw the changes-->glad that "almost" prevented that.

WIth a Nightmare i use the same mjd-tachsnipe tactics (alt/corpmate salvages) as the first iteration suggested. With the transform fun...
With a laser boat, i just skip the missions what has any other factions than sansha/raiders. Whats the point of the t2 resists then? None.
Incursions: resist are fine. But wait! We have the nightmare ingame? Yes. Armor fleets got nearly extinct. No point again.
The palladin hull costs 50% more than the nightmare. No point again.

The first iteration was definitely more enjoyable looking for missioning, and the latest iteration was most definitely catered to incursions at the expense of literally everything else.

Don't worry though, they're changing stuff around again. My advice: Most of the secondary skills for Marauders I are skills you should train up anyway. Keep the training plan going. I have faith in CCP to get this sorted out.


yeah, the noise the incursion lads made pales in comparison to the godallmighty shitstorm that followed the update.
don't get me wrong, id actually rather happily fork out for one as it stands, I just feel it was a little short sighted and could have been considerd a little longer than the knee-jerk we saw.

I think you nailed it with " don't give in to haters so easily".
ither way thers a LOT of good ideas in thes thread, ill be interested to see how they're reflected in the next issue.

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#3457 - 2013-09-10 17:33:17 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Time for another update.

We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:


  • Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.

  • We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.

  • Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.


I will change the OP to match the changes.




Good, this is much better now and opens a lot more use perspectives than sole Bastion mode since for pvp you don't loose anymore almost half of your ship abilities if you don't fit Bastion module.
MJD was a nice addition, but web bonus is imho once again a much better utility bonus with a large spectrum of use in pvp/pve.

Needs some guns and sensor love thou (imho) and it starts looking like a much better ship Lol


removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Rita May
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3458 - 2013-09-10 18:17:17 UTC
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:

Good, this is much better now and opens a lot more use perspectives than sole Bastion mode since for pvp you don't loose anymore almost half of your ship abilities if you don't fit Bastion module.
MJD was a nice addition, but web bonus is imho once again a much better utility bonus with a large spectrum of use in pvp/pve.

Needs some guns and sensor love thou (imho) and it starts looking like a much better ship Lol

sure, after 174 pages i finally can see why a web bonus on a module with boni for MJD and sniping makes sense.
for reference: On a 425mm Kronos the CURRENT web bonus doesn't help you with hitting orbiting (elite)frigs, even in combination with a tracking scripted TC.
Not to mention that the targets to web should be kind enough to get into your web range in the first place...

cu
Adunh Slavy
#3459 - 2013-09-10 18:39:42 UTC
Add a fuel bay, use heavy water for this extra mode. And why no logistic support? Seems kinda silly. Letting them receive logistic support would add more dynamic to the battle field, not less.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
Syrias Bizniz
some random local shitlords
#3460 - 2013-09-10 18:53:10 UTC
Here's some random thoughts of mine thrown into the pit.



How about....



  • Ability to use a Bomblauncher when in Bastion Mode with intense bonuses to bomb velocity? Very tricky in use because of alignment at 0m/s :)
  • A Bonus to Smartbomb Damage and/or Range?
  • A Bonus to Energy Vampire Range?
  • Making bonuses to MJD and Bastion Time a Marauder Skill Bonus - 17% reduction in MJD reactivation delay and 10% reduction in Bastion Module duration? This would twindle the MJD reactivation to ~27? seconds, and bastion to 30 seconds. Would allow for a HELL A LOT more mobility, potentially at the cost of reduced tank . For example, a reduced active tank bonus on the bastion module.
  • Drop dat web bonus! Seriously, you're giving the ships RANGE just to give them the ability to stay in close for blapping? Tech 2 is meant to be specialized, and the specialisation in one absurdly mobile sniping platform is very nice, but gets totally blasted by a web bonus. Maybe roll it into the bastion-bonus if you want to keep it. But Range-Bonus would be by far better than a strength bonus, that's what Serpentis and (partially) Blood Raiders are for. And then again, just make them get Target-Painter optimal range. To effectively paint stuff from ~100km.
  • Reduce SPOOL UP time of the MJD module for Marauders?
  • AoE-Salvager for 'rauders?
  • Full Rack of Medium guns designed to reach Battleshipish range and dps? (Like, Tier 3 BC, but vice versa!)
  • Capbooster-Inject-Amount-Bonus? (Suits the 'behind enemy lines' thingy, doesn't it?)






And oh, yeah, so far, for me, these ships look to be king for PvE where they don't need any tank at all besides 1 rep-module, stuff in max gank and application, and roll every mission with ease because they're gonna be so damn gud at it.
For PvP i can see how they are able to dominate Tier 3 Gangs if used in small squads and coordinated well. Especially the Vargur. I mean, come on, forget the rest. Vargur is going to be King of anything that has to do with low playercount but maximum performance.