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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

First post First post First post
Author
Striscio
Doomheim
#3421 - 2013-09-10 13:05:23 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
[

Overall this is a rather prickly issue since you have people on the one side who want the Marauders for pure PvP and don't give a flying crap about their PvE usability.

On the other you have the people who have actually trained to use these ships already and use them extensively in PvE and probably don't care very much about their PvP viability.

There's a third and somewhat smaller group who really care equally about both but I would say from the posting trends that more or less everyone is leaning one way or the other, generally to a large degree.


You forgot the fourth and pretty big group who care about PvE and/or PvE but have no clue at all how things really works. Idea

These days I'm opening the F&ID forum and wonder why marauder haven't turned yet in something like a smartbomb hull that gets gas mining bonus in bastion... Roll

(INB4 new rokh hull gas mining marauder proposal) Pirate

On the note, this is not a personal attack on anyone and also I'm quite found of your efforts in this post, keep on. Big smile
chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#3422 - 2013-09-10 13:19:25 UTC
Just another thought, and admittedly spitballing.

What if the bastion module only kept these traits:
standard movement restrictions
increased range
EWAR immunity
cant be remote assisted

removed:
the additional tanking attributes

But add:
Transforms into a heat + energy efficient, but immobile platform.
No penalty for overloading modules while in bastion mode. (or maybe no penalty @ thermal dynamics V)
optional: Cap use for all modules decreases by x%. (10% ish?)

Debora Tsung
Perkone
Caldari State
#3423 - 2013-09-10 13:26:21 UTC
chaosgrimm wrote:
Just another thought, and admittedly spitballing.

What if the bastion module only kept these traits:
standard movement restrictions
increased range
EWAR immunity
cant be remote assisted

removed:
the additional tanking attributes

But add:
Transforms into a heat + energy efficient, but immobile platform.
No penalty for overloading modules while in bastion mode. (or maybe no penalty @ thermal dynamics V)
optional: Cap use for all modules decreases by x%. (10% ish?)



+1 because your post lacks the usual rage-whine, it least sounds more interesting than some of those other suggestions, and thinking about your suggestion is not a sure trip to lala-land.

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

Fighting back is more fun than not.

Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.

Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#3424 - 2013-09-10 13:44:05 UTC
Debora Tsung wrote:
chaosgrimm wrote:
Just another thought, and admittedly spitballing.

What if the bastion module only kept these traits:
standard movement restrictions
increased range
EWAR immunity
cant be remote assisted

removed:
the additional tanking attributes

But add:
Transforms into a heat + energy efficient, but immobile platform.
No penalty for overloading modules while in bastion mode. (or maybe no penalty @ thermal dynamics V)
optional: Cap use for all modules decreases by x%. (10% ish?)



+1 because your post lacks the usual rage-whine, it least sounds more interesting than some of those other suggestions, and thinking about your suggestion is not a sure trip to lala-land.

Someone proposed something similar a while back,with bonus heat resistance to overloading so as to maintain skill as a requirement for performance, its certainly one of the more interesting ideas.

certainly worth having a look into( not that I'm capable of running numbers Sad)
Yun Kuai
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#3425 - 2013-09-10 14:06:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Yun Kuai
I think the biggest issue, as some have point out, is the balancing between a PVE and PVP perspective. Traditionally speaking, the marauder has been a ship class strictly for PVE since its inception into the game. This has created an iconic "carebear" ship that was able to PvP in the past, but really suffered due to the initial limitations placed by the CCP devs.

Now we've reached an age in EvE where the ships are changing, some drastically and some just a pinch here and there. As we enter the marauder rebalance, I believe it's very important for both the players and for the developers to realize that the pre-existing iterations of marauders can already easily run lvl 4 missions. Rebalancing them specifically so that they're even better at PVE is foolish and lacks forward thinking. Any BS can run lvl 4 missions in highsec easily enough so there is no need to relegate a single class to just PVE. If these ships are balanced correctly, they will still excel at PVE just because they excel at PVP.

Now, as we focus on the ship balancing itself I would like to say this. As I've watched the ship balancing come and pass for the T1 hulls, I've really felt that the game has lost of its racial flare and has been more focused on homogenization through equal slot allowances, slot layouts, etc. These marauders represent the pinnacle of their respective races sub capital class ship, and as such should truly show racial differences. Giving every marauder the same web bonus across the four races is boring and takes away their differences and specialties. As for the bastion module, the idea is exciting but the presentation needs work. Due to this, these ships prove challenging to balance but here goes my two cents.

I would like to provide a concept instead of hard numbers, which hopefully will be discussed and built upon:
Bastion Module:
1) 60 second cycle timer
2) Anchor ship when activated.
3) Provides Ewar immunity while activated.
4) Provides mass increase so you can't be bumped. To counter the WH closing problem: you cannot jump while the module is activated....or dock or jump gates for that matter
5) Provides 100% bonus to armor repairer/shield repairer effectiveness and cap reduction and/or cycle time reduction to armor/shield repairers. (Caution for ASB fits....may be OP)
6) Is scripted to provide specific bonuses to short range or long range play styles. This module is only limited to 1 hull that cost over a billion, its okay to introduce a useful one considering the trade off of being stuck in place for a minute


Marauders:
Like I mentioned earlier, these should be the racial embodiment of their weapon system. They should illustrate the strength of pulse/beam lasers, blaster/railgun hybrids, cruise/torp missiles, auto/artillery projectiles through hull specific bonuses. Note, these bonuses should not provide a direct bonus to raw damage, but rather damage application bonuses that have synergy with the bastion module itself.

The marauders need survivability inside and outside of bastion mode. This means providing hull bonuses that boost actual armor or shield HP. This provides usefulness for use outside of bastion mode, i.e receiving RR, and provides bonuses to bastion mode, i.e. having enough buffer to get rep cycles off.

The marauders also need racial specific support bonuses like webs, but not a blanket bonus to each hull. These ships aren't similar by any means in the damage application or ranges of engagement, so their support bonus shouldn't be similar as well.
Paladin: bonus to TC (mid range weapon system)
Golem: bonus to TP (missile application)
Kronos: bonus to web strength (short range weapon system)
Vargur: bonus to TC ( mid range weapon system)

(I'm not exactly sure what kind if support form of Ewar to use without having overlap) Edited****

Keep the MJD role bonus. Coordinated with a scripted bastion module, these ships can benefit from pulling range or closing distances to accommodate different play styles and fleet doctrines.

--------------------------------------------------------::::::::::::--:::-----:::---::::::::::::--------------:::----------:::----:::---:::----------------------:::::::-------:::---:::----::::::-------------------:::-----------:::--:::----:::---------------------::::::::::::----:::::::----:::::::::::::-------

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#3426 - 2013-09-10 14:34:21 UTC
chaosgrimm wrote:
Just another thought, and admittedly spitballing.

What if the bastion module only kept these traits:
standard movement restrictions
increased range
EWAR immunity
cant be remote assisted

removed:
the additional tanking attributes

But add:
Transforms into a heat + energy efficient, but immobile platform.
No penalty for overloading modules while in bastion mode. (or maybe no penalty @ thermal dynamics V)
optional: Cap use for all modules decreases by x%. (10% ish?)




Then it woudl be USELES and no one would use it!

THe opposite shoudl be made.> More STRONG bonuses in the bastion mode. Not less.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Wedgetail
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3427 - 2013-09-10 14:37:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Wedgetail
Mina Sebiestar wrote:
CanI haveyourstuff wrote:
Wedgetail wrote:

as for the logistics chains i'll make this very simple:

two fleets encounter each other, both have logis

one fleet has marauders, marauders have 100km gun range and 3 capacitor warfare modules (per ship)

one fleet has pirate battleships, which have 100km gun range and 1-2 capacitor warfare modules (per ship)


Thats the point where I wanted you to get... on theory it's all cool and maybe @ alliance tournament.

but lets look at real eve pvp situations now, you see super expensive pirate and marauder BS ships fighting alot ?
I dont.

we all can blablabla about specialization, generalization what the **** ever we want but when you look at PVP aspect of game - no one uses expensive pirate or marauder bs-es.

it's just pointless


On this subject last time i see them in combat me and few other logis wore trying to keep them alive(2 of them),they did respond well to reps til some point but incoming dps just brake their weak hit points.they went down fast after that hell i even think they wore primary even before bhaalgorn was and i am fairly certain bhaal survived longer.

if ppl continue to demand local booster back(that was utterly useless in situation above) their usage in PVP will not even be in consideration they will melt due to semi resist they have now and lack of hit points they have now soon to be nerfed even more.

Local tank is good 4 l4's but it will not make ship better at it as pirate ships are clearly better at it atm and t2 resist would open the door to incursion and wh content to be done properly. as well as making them at least somewhat usable in fleet environment


.......would i trade local boost for all of the above i would..anything to move this ship from 2nd class mission runner is achievement imo..

But as i said bastion projection buff is not enough of a gain(or i believe it isn't to be more fair) for ship to suffer mass / speed / agility / drones / hit points loss it just isn't.

Edit

Not to mention immobility it self i fully plan not to use bastion module on my marauders just if CCP don't butcher them as they stand atm.




last time i saw pirate hulls deployed was via pandemic legion titan drops during their blockades of solar freighter lines, and they did this because battleships are too slow to respond to new intel to work in any other circumstance (see the prevalence of blops fleets for example, high reaction speed, high survivability for the cost a trait they don't share with marauders and pirate battle ships)

if you want to succeed in combat you must be fast - this requires a jump bridge or a rapid mobility that battleships simply don't have. if i have to jump chains and chains of gates to catch a target they'll be gone long before I arrive, cruisers (t3's notably) can maintain better defenses, do 1/2 to 2/3rds as much damage and fly 2x as fast thus make a better choice for roaming gangs.

truthfully the last place i saw decent gang warfare on the battle ship tonnage was in faction war settings of 50 pilot PUG fleets - fighting limited to a very enclosed region of space.
Vivi Udan
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#3428 - 2013-09-10 14:42:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Vivi Udan
chaosgrimm wrote:
Just another thought, and admittedly spitballing.

What if the bastion module only kept these traits:
standard movement restrictions
increased range
EWAR immunity
cant be remote assisted

removed:
the additional tanking attributes

But add:
Transforms into a heat + energy efficient, but immobile platform.
No penalty for overloading modules while in bastion mode. (or maybe no penalty @ thermal dynamics V)
optional: Cap use for all modules decreases by x%. (10% ish?)



I like where your idea is heading. My particular idea is kinda a different iteration of your own idea [maybe a little bit]
What I am trying to come up with is a way to make Marauders more 'fleet friendly' for small and larger
scale PVP or PVE when used with the Bastion Module. [I am aware that half of you wont like it, 1/4 of you
will hate it, and everyone else wont even read it.] The idea is to take the existing negatives
of a battleship in PVP and create a positive to counteract the existing negative [aka the Bastion module]
and to encourage 'marauder like tactics' to avoid being countered during the 'cool down cycle.'

The cool down cycle is specifically to give opponents the opportunity to counterattack or, if the battle
is over, encourage the Marauder to loot and/or salvage any wreckage. (Cool down cycle = normal marauder
capabilities except warp drive is disabled and bastion module is disabled.)

And for those who want a damage boost can get it, but at the cost of eventually burning out their guns.


BASTION MODULE

25% increase to large turret falloff and optimal range
25% increases to large missile velocity
50% reduction to E-War (Can receive remote assisting bonuses)
50% reduction to Micro Jump Drive distance
(Long range = use before entering Bastion mode/short range = use after entering Bastion mode)
Additional 10% bonus to the reduction of overheating damage (per thermodynamics skill level)
Warp drive is disabled

Can use one of two types of fuel:
'Water' 60 second cycle time with 45 second cool down timer
'Coolant' 120 second cycle time with 90 second cool down timer

Bonuses for the racial battleship skills would have to be determined individually.

The Mittani of House GoonWaffe, First of His name, King of the Goons and VFK, Master of griefing, Lord of the CFC, Warden of the West, and Protector of Deklein.

chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#3429 - 2013-09-10 14:57:03 UTC
Yun Kuai wrote:

Rebalancing them specifically so that they're even better at PVE is foolish and lacks forward thinking. Any BS can run lvl 4 missions in highsec easily enough so there is no need to relegate a single class to just PVE

I see the point, but dont 100% agree with this. LvL 4s arent required to have class diversity like PvP. I think of PvE almost like rat mining. IMO most dont care if all highsec missions are done with x class of ship, just as most dont care if all highsec mining is done by exhumers.

I think that for pve specifically, these ships need to provide a large enough advantage compared faction/pirate battleships, that makes the training/monetary investment worth it. Alternatively though, the process of picking the right hull for the mission brings a level of enjoyment to missions in my opinion xD.

Yun Kuai wrote:

Giving every marauder the same web bonus across the four races is boring and takes away their differences and specialties.

agree completely

Yun Kuai wrote:

Note, these bonuses should not provide a direct bonus to raw damage, but rather damage application bonuses that have synergy with the bastion module itself.

Not so sure on this statement, but I could be swayed. For a PvE example i think of differences between the mach and the vargur. The max dps number on the mach is currently higher than the vargur, but let's assume they are equal. The difference then between the two would be that the vargur gets EWAR immunity, tanking, and tracking bonuses while the mach gets better speed / agility.

The problem I see with this is that the speed / agility of the mach is more flexible than the stationary bonuses given to the vargur. You can increase applied dmg by using the mach's speed bonus to close distance and / or decrease angular. You can also reduce incoming dmg by doing the opposite. With marauders receiving mobility decreases and being locked into bastion mode for a period of time, what you see is what you get and what you get is pretty limited flexibility. i think marauders need at least marginally better sustained dps to make up for their lack of flexibility and increased training requirements.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3430 - 2013-09-10 14:57:05 UTC
Forlorn Wongraven wrote:
Lair Osen wrote:
Agolon wrote:
Two things i would love to see added
Allow use of covert op BS jump bridge. So a Covert op scout BS can call in his Marauder Buddies. Even if it has a hour cool down.
I have never used a jump bridge but i think it would be great reason to pvp with it. Can it work ???

The other is a 200% dam when hitting target over BS size so carrier's and POS size objects. I don't see that effecting mission dps or BS on BS fights.

The though of a group of Marauder being jumped into a system by a stealth BS and able to cause all hell on field with MJD.
I think with those 2 changes if will give it a powerful PVP reason to fly it with out making it OP or useless in PVE with the way they are now.



You do know that BLOPS BSs have jump drives that can jump to covert cynos right?


He wants to avoid running gates with his pimped Marauder in null-sec, obviously. And BlackOps don't have the punch and tank of Marauders.



Punch yes, what is this tank you speak of X
Debora Tsung
Perkone
Caldari State
#3431 - 2013-09-10 14:57:49 UTC
Vivi Udan wrote:
50% reduction to E-War (Can receive remote assisting bonuses)

The EWAR Immunity is the only thing that makes the bastion module attractive. I do not believe that taking that away would be a good move.

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

Fighting back is more fun than not.

Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.

Gabriel Karade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#3432 - 2013-09-10 14:58:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Gabriel Karade
Aglais wrote:
Gabriel Karade wrote:
I don't understand the backlash against the web bonus:

a) Two of the Marauders already had it (actually a 75% more effective bonus, in terms of target velocity, than that proposed...) and it is a requirement for a good blaster boat

b) You don't need a repair bonus for PVE activities - 'low end stuff' (Missions/Complexes) are trivial with MJD and a long reach, 'high end stuff' (Incursions/Wormholes) you will be relying on remote repair, for which the T2 resist bonus is awesome.


a) "HURr DuRR 10 KILOMETER WEBS ON A 145 KM CRUISE MISSILE SHIP, OR A ~35 KM TORP SHIP"

b) You're right- you don't really need a rep bonus for PvE activities. But you might for small scale PvP. CCP wants to bring Marauders into PvP. But these changes will do nothing but IMO permanently bar them from it. :\

And if you hadn't been so desperate to reply with a douchebag comment you would have actually absorbed my point about the Kronos and Paladin currently having a 75% more effective bonus than that proposed... Roll

Also T2 resist bonus > repair bonus from most small scale PvP

Edit: a previous poster made a fair comment on adding a 'racial' flavoured bonus to better suit the weapon system.

War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293

Gabriel Karade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#3433 - 2013-09-10 15:09:33 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Gabriel Karade wrote:
I don't understand the backlash against the web bonus:

a) Two of the Marauders already had it (actually a 75% more effective bonus, in terms of target velocity, than that proposed...) and it is a requirement for a good blaster boat

b) You don't need a repair bonus for PVE activities - 'low end stuff' (Missions/Complexes) are trivial with MJD and a long reach, 'high end stuff' (Incursions/Wormholes) you will be relying on remote repair, for which the T2 resist bonus is awesome.


A. Plenty of "good blaster boats" don't have it. The only ones that do are the Vindicator (arguably the strongest single Battleship in the game right now) and the Kronos (seen repeatedly called a 'nerfed Vindicator' when brought up in conversation due to a 12.5% drop in DPS and lower sensor strength despite better resists). I'm somewhat ignoring the smaller Serpentis hulls because small ship combat is significantly different from battleship combat where webs are concerned.

B. No, but it helps. For reasons that have very clearly been outlined over the last several pages
I've explained at length the crippling impact of the 2008 web changes on blaster battleships (and implications of losing the bonus completely) from the perspective of someone with a great deal of experience with them, i'm not going to repeat myself. I do have to ask what your experience with blaster battleships is though?

I'm amazed CCP have gone for the resist bonus - for high end stuff it so outweighs a self repair bonus (and loss of) it isnt even funny.

War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293

Yun Kuai
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#3434 - 2013-09-10 15:15:20 UTC
chaosgrimm wrote:
Yun Kuai wrote:



[quote=Yun Kuai]
Note, these bonuses should not provide a direct bonus to raw damage, but rather damage application bonuses that have synergy with the bastion module itself.

Not so sure on this statement, but I could be swayed. For a PvE example i think of differences between the mach and the vargur. The max dps number on the mach is currently higher than the vargur, but let's assume they are equal. The difference then between the two would be that the vargur gets EWAR immunity, tanking, and tracking bonuses while the mach gets better speed / agility.

The problem I see with this is that the speed / agility of the mach is more flexible than the stationary bonuses given to the vargur. You can increase applied dmg by using the mach's speed bonus to close distance and / or decrease angular. You can also reduce incoming dmg by doing the opposite. With marauders receiving mobility decreases and being locked into bastion mode for a period of time, what you see is what you get and what you get is pretty limited flexibility. i think marauders need at least marginally better sustained dps to make up for their lack of flexibility and increased training requirements.




I can see the hesitency here, but you would have to figure in that the vargur has better tank, so mobility for negating DPS isn't an issue. If you also factor in a scripted bastion module that would support either short or long range engagements, the applied dps would be better since you're not having to fly around to reach shorter ranges; you just rely on your native ship hull bonuses and synergies bastion mode bonuses. Also, with the MJD bonus, you still have mobility....just not in the traditional MWD around everywhere sense.

--------------------------------------------------------::::::::::::--:::-----:::---::::::::::::--------------:::----------:::----:::---:::----------------------:::::::-------:::---:::----::::::-------------------:::-----------:::--:::----:::---------------------::::::::::::----:::::::----:::::::::::::-------

Doddy
Excidium.
#3435 - 2013-09-10 15:17:18 UTC
Will be epic, but why the bastion module not buff missile damage application? I get velocity maybe but it should have at least one of the other effects (for sig radius or velocity effect) or its pretty useless.
Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#3436 - 2013-09-10 15:22:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Iome Ambraelle
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Siddicus wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:


I digress though, this has very little to do with Marauders, which is more or less the point of the last 170 pages...


And it's been 34 pages (coming on a week soon) since the last dev post, pretty much everything to be said about the proposed changes has been said

=/


I'm actually working on my own version of a proposal for fun.

When it's suitably thought out I'll post it for the wolves to chew apart.

Overall this is a rather prickly issue since you have people on the one side who want the Marauders for pure PvP and don't give a flying crap about their PvE usability.

On the other you have the people who have actually trained to use these ships already and use them extensively in PvE and probably don't care very much about their PvP viability.

There's a third and somewhat smaller group who really care equally about both but I would say from the posting trends that more or less everyone is leaning one way or the other, generally to a large degree.

The PvP people were the ones who jumped all over the first proposal for not being friendly enough to their interests. They really want to keep the web bonus because it essentially makes these hulls immune to frigates and very good against cruisers.

On the flip side the PvE people hate the second proposed version and don't want the web bonus, especially on the Vargur and Golem.

Throughout the mix we have people who want a number of ridiculous things like cloak-bonused Marauders and massive damage bonuses on Bastion. Not to mention the various people who think Bastion is an awesome idea, a horrible idea, or belongs on an entirely new ship class...

Personally I think Bastion is a pretty cool idea but I don't think it should be mandatory. I'm against web velocity bonuses in general because after running the numbers I find them to be hilariously over-powered against small targets even compared to regular webs, and I'd like to find a solution that at least makes the PvE and PvP sides marginally less angry, if not actually happy (this is Eve Features and Ideas Discussion after all, happy is something you hope for not something you expect) though I don't think Bastion is going to be something both of them get equal use out of no matter what.


Cade, I'm working on something too over here. I completely agree with you that the Marauder class must be fully useful without a bastion module fit. The problem is that since the module is in a highslot and doesn't require a turret/launcher hard point you have to at least look at what it can be traded out for module wise and compare the benefits of the replacement to the benefits and drawbacks of the bastion.

If there's no comparison and bastion is simply way better than anything else, everyone will fit bastion even if they don't use it. On the flip side, if the bastion module isn't strong enough and the hull changes remove any significant disadvantage (like the sensor strength) you won't find them fitted.

I think they should add an additional turret/launcher hard point to these hull, and adjust the bastion module to require one. Now you actually have a powerful replacement module to balance the bastion module against and provides some very hard decisions if the bonuses on the module are well thought out. Do you fit a 5 turret and lose damage projection/application/whatever else they put on the module, or do you fit the bastion module. Less raw damage but great tank, damage project, etc. That scenario would make this conversation completely different!

Shield Tanking - Why armor tanking can't have nice things.

Mole Guy
Bob's Bait and Tackle
#3437 - 2013-09-10 15:25:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Mole Guy
if they were to be stationary, they would be called castles or fortifications or something..

i want to address:
the name marauder in general...
resists
scanning
salvage
tractor beams
tank
alignment time
speed in general
new possible bonus to hp ammount
rep rate

they should be fast strikers, not bricks. they should have t2 resists, mjd bonus, faster scan res for locking, low sensor str (fits the role-they arent designed for continual combat, just quick skirmishes).

they should align quickly and mjd. stop and pounce or get at range and snipe. they dont have to have tons of hp, just good hp and resists.
as i put in my post, they could have a bonus like the damnation (5% to armor or shield per marauder lev showing their training to fight the ship). make it start lower than typical bs (because they are lighter and faster), but once the bonus is full (marauder 5), be above typical bs.

the bastion mode is kewl. it would fit in well with this idea since they are immobile once deployed. it would fit in well with the low sensor str too. once in bastion mode, they are unjammable, but out of bastion mode, they are easily taken out with even the simplist of jamming frigs.

they need their reps back since they will have low tanks.
give them an rr bonus. it fits too. when in bastion mode, they cant be repped, and when out, they are easily jammed (and it cant be OP if its easily jammed).
like 5% per lev to reps, rep range or something. maybe a 5% per lev reduction in cap use for rr modules.


its a pve ship:
it still needs a scan bonus for probing.
it also needs the tractor range enhanced a little more.
a salvage difficulty bonus would be a kewl niche for these over a noctis.
we arent putting salvage rigs on em so we have to deal with basic skills. marauders should get these skills increased. maybe 50% bonus. with a probe launcher, tractor and salvager, we can only fit 1. it takes alot of time to salvage with a non-bonused marauder. give us a reason to use it over a noctis.

pve would still have their pve ships, incursions would have a kewl ship, worm hole goers would be able to tend to each other and salvage without having to call in a noctis, and for those running lev 4's, you still have your anti-jam mode as well.
Striscio
Doomheim
#3438 - 2013-09-10 15:31:27 UTC
Doddy wrote:
Will be epic, but why the bastion module not buff missile damage application? I get velocity maybe but it should have at least one of the other effects (for sig radius or velocity effect) or its pretty useless.


Well actually there is a problem between weapons systems since range on missiles doesn't influence damage application at all ( Miss or Hit). And there is a problem even inside turret group, not all of them get a significant boost from both Optimal/Falloff. So it looks like they choose a full +25% "range" concept per system, since there are no more than one type of missiles (stat boosting wise) they just receive a single bonus. There is not a real simple solution since a Optimal/Falloff+Tracking and Speed+Sig.Radius would just escalate the problem.

Well.. after all there is a simple solution, they probably said "let's leave missiles behind as we were used"
Doddy
Excidium.
#3439 - 2013-09-10 15:34:47 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
Ager Agemo wrote:
either way the bastion mode its a dead sentence, having friends wont help because they cannot even heal or boost you.



yes for 60 seconds... and how ehp does that kronos have? how much can it rep? ever heard of a target spectrum breaker...

i am glad most of you pubbies think the mod is useless makes it even better for me


TSB takes up a midslot of course. That's going to cost you a tracking computer.

In any case, if you're in null or w-space, you'll be inside an interdiction field.

I would advise you against using bastion mode in w-space or null. But if you do, please be so kind as to let me know where you are...


Its only a 1 minute timer. Hics tackling supers (and even dreads in seige tbh) already have to do the rep kiting (get primaried, turn off mod, tank for a minute, get repped back up, enemy changes primary, mod on again) and its a great mechanic that should be encouraged. It requires actual judgement to use. And people facing them will need to switch targets to try and catch someone with cycle just started, overload to break them before they come out etc just like with triage/seige). Of course at a certain fleet size it will become redundant but for small gang stuff it will work well.
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#3440 - 2013-09-10 15:52:43 UTC
Doddy wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
Ager Agemo wrote:
either way the bastion mode its a dead sentence, having friends wont help because they cannot even heal or boost you.



yes for 60 seconds... and how ehp does that kronos have? how much can it rep? ever heard of a target spectrum breaker...

i am glad most of you pubbies think the mod is useless makes it even better for me


TSB takes up a midslot of course. That's going to cost you a tracking computer.

In any case, if you're in null or w-space, you'll be inside an interdiction field.

I would advise you against using bastion mode in w-space or null. But if you do, please be so kind as to let me know where you are...


Its only a 1 minute timer. Hics tackling supers (and even dreads in seige tbh) already have to do the rep kiting (get primaried, turn off mod, tank for a minute, get repped back up, enemy changes primary, mod on again) and its a great mechanic that should be encouraged. It requires actual judgement to use. And people facing them will need to switch targets to try and catch someone with cycle just started, overload to break them before they come out etc just like with triage/seige). Of course at a certain fleet size it will become redundant but for small gang stuff it will work well.

Sounds awesome, can't wait