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Dear CCP please dont nerf the machariel

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Plug in Baby
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2013-09-09 13:21:15 UTC
Can we stop pretending that the Machs 1bn price tag is a balancing point, if people can easily field a full fleet of Machs, they are hardly 'rare'. Faction or pirate BS are the new standard where a few years ago it would be T1 BS. MUDflation.

The mach is clearly overpowered, not because it is the best armor PVP BS, but because it is the best PVP AHAC and has been for a long time.

This is not a forum alt, this is a forum main.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#42 - 2013-09-09 13:58:47 UTC
Bastion Arzi wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
Bastion Arzi wrote:

and the nightmare has:

more cpu
more cap
higher targeting range
more sensor strength
more shields
instantaneous ammo swap/reload


really? you're gonna bring this weaksauce? well fine:
- more cpu is irrelevant as long as you have enough cpu for a decent fit. otherwise i may as well say "the mach has more powergrid hurrdurr".
- the slightly better cap is negated completely by the weapons and the fact that you have to fit an mwd to go faster than 300ish m/s
- two more sensor strength. 28 vs 26.if that is not a winning argument i don't know what is.
- higher raw shield HP is only relevant in PVP buffer fits. ironically, the nightmare is a terrible pvp ship compared to the mach so in the end it has 0 relevance.
- instant ammo swap is an advantage but i would take different damage types over different ranges any day.

bottom line, no matter how much space lawyering you try and do, the fact remains: the mach outdoes its siblings by a significant margin. bringing it in line will be better for the game and any unbiased player will admit it.


Fine you make a good point. but please leave the mach as it is. Maybe its the other pirate bs that need a buff...


Don't nerf my PWNMOBILE bro!
Darius Brinn
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#43 - 2013-09-10 09:12:17 UTC
Tauranon wrote:


Its got the same control range as a dominix. Dominix and rattlesnake will shoot 121km with 2 DLAs and a rig. Rattlesnake gives up 2 utilty highs to do so, the dominix gives up 2 turrets. Also the rattlesnake is a brick, which is a reasonable explanation for its movement speed, and balanced.


LOL no, it doesn't have the same drone control range. Because, you know, the Dominix applies WONDERFUL drone DPS without fitting turrets or missiles, so the highs can be shamelessly full of DLAs for proper sniping, and you still get the advantages of using ALL of the hulls bonuses.

The Rattlesnake, however, relies on its launchers. It needs the launchers or it will sport ANEMIC DPS with MUCH WORSE REAL APPLICATION than the Dominix. So, it's basically restricted to 2 x T2 DLAs.

Even more weird is the fact that a Rattlesnake with T2 Cruises can launch at...200Km, IIRC? It's like allowing a Machariel to attack with its secondary weapon system at 200Km (drones), while forcing it to FOREGO said weapon system if it wanted to shoot at 150Km with Artillery. Absurd, isn't it?

Well, it's what happens to the Rattlesnake: want to reach 150Km with your longest reaching drones? No launchers for you. Less paper DPS and less REAL, APPLIED DPS than the Dominix.


Tauranon wrote:
If you want a fast battleship, please visit your local angel mission agent and test drive a mach today. Also if you need your rattlesnake 100km away in no more than 12 seconds, there is a module for that.


Yeah. So the Rattlesnake can't run (no problems with that) like the Mach, can't GTFO like the Mach (who can?), can't get into Incursions like the Mach (well, OK), can't snipe in PvP like the Mach (fine), can't clear missions as fast as the Mach (ummm...yes)...

What can the Rattlesnake do better than the Mach? Stay put and take it IF properly fit for max brick?

Yeah. I can't understand at all why the Rattlesnake costs less than half Roll
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#44 - 2013-09-10 09:12:45 UTC
Bastion Arzi wrote:
As the title says pls dont do this. I've heard rumours that a nerf is on the horizon. Is this true?

I have spent ages training for this ship and it would be a shame for all that training to go to waste....

PLEASE PLEASE dont nerf the mach.


lolnop

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#45 - 2013-09-10 10:01:30 UTC
Darius Brinn wrote:
Well, it's what happens to the Rattlesnake: want to reach 150Km with your longest reaching drones? No launchers for you. Less paper DPS and less REAL, APPLIED DPS than the Dominix.


When you're arguing at such extreme ranges to make a point...the argument is thin.

A properly fitted 'snake will murder a Dominix in damage application at any reasonable range whilst tanking FAR better than said domi could ever dream of.


The rattler costs half as much for two reasons: 1) high skill requirement to make it 'work' and 2) People are obsessed about passive tanking it, it's real potential lies in an active tank and actually playing the ship as opposed to deploying drones and snoozing.

With a couple of 5% implants (cant be bothered reconfiguring, meh) it can spit out 1050-1240 DPS selectable damage out to its lock range whilst sporting a very serious tank indeed.

Yeah, totally sucks Roll
Bastion Arzi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#46 - 2013-09-10 11:32:54 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Darius Brinn wrote:
Well, it's what happens to the Rattlesnake: want to reach 150Km with your longest reaching drones? No launchers for you. Less paper DPS and less REAL, APPLIED DPS than the Dominix.


When you're arguing at such extreme ranges to make a point...the argument is thin.

A properly fitted 'snake will murder a Dominix in damage application at any reasonable range whilst tanking FAR better than said domi could ever dream of.


The rattler costs half as much for two reasons: 1) high skill requirement to make it 'work' and 2) People are obsessed about passive tanking it, it's real potential lies in an active tank and actually playing the ship as opposed to deploying drones and snoozing.

With a couple of 5% implants (cant be bothered reconfiguring, meh) it can spit out 1050-1240 DPS selectable damage out to its lock range whilst sporting a very serious tank indeed.

Yeah, totally sucks Roll


Quick nerf it into the ground!!!
To mare
Advanced Technology
#47 - 2013-09-10 11:40:41 UTC
IF they have to nerf the thing i hope they remove the 7th turret, and leave all the rest (speed agi) the same, i know mission runners wont like this but at least it would keep the ship viable for pvp
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#48 - 2013-09-10 11:45:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Morrigan LeSante
Well, the Mach is anything up to 10x faster, has equal or higher DPS in a meaningful way and has just about as mean a tank with some pimpage.

That's the thing about the Mach, you're never really in a trade off position with it, it just does it all - and of the things it does, it's ranging from well above average to king of the hill.



Frankly I just take exception to claims he rattler sucks - but by all means, buff it Blink
Bastion Arzi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#49 - 2013-09-10 11:49:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Bastion Arzi
the mach doesnt have as good a tank as the rattler are you kidding me?
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#50 - 2013-09-10 11:59:16 UTC
Not a brick rattler no, but an active one, it's rather close. And guess what a brick rattler doesnt have the DPS. Neither breed of rattler has the speed or the sig either.
Darius Brinn
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#51 - 2013-09-10 12:20:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Darius Brinn
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Darius Brinn wrote:
Well, it's what happens to the Rattlesnake: want to reach 150Km with your longest reaching drones? No launchers for you. Less paper DPS and less REAL, APPLIED DPS than the Dominix.


When you're arguing at such extreme ranges to make a point...the argument is thin.

A properly fitted 'snake will murder a Dominix in damage application at any reasonable range whilst tanking FAR better than said domi could ever dream of.


The rattler costs half as much for two reasons: 1) high skill requirement to make it 'work' and 2) People are obsessed about passive tanking it, it's real potential lies in an active tank and actually playing the ship as opposed to deploying drones and snoozing.

With a couple of 5% implants (cant be bothered reconfiguring, meh) it can spit out 1050-1240 DPS selectable damage out to its lock range whilst sporting a very serious tank indeed.

Yeah, totally sucks Roll


I use my Rattlesnake with an ACTIVE tank, thank you very much, and I am very aware of what it can spit out.

The damage is not fully selectable. You can't bring 4 different sets of Sentries at all. Selectable damage for unbonused launchers hardly counts as "selectable damage" like we mean it when we are discussing all things Machariel.

It cannot be configured to snipe effectively, and you are restricted to barely beyond 110Km or your DPS will drop. This is a problem not shared by the Dominix.

I also would love to see what would you call a "reasonable" range. If I use a Rattlesnake in PvE, with a MJD, and I warp 150Kms away from red crosses, I would love not being forced to slowboat (or use double propulsion) 35 or 40Kms until I can shoot.

In the same situation, the Dominix user with his highs full of DLAs and his DPS intact would have been shooting for minutes.

Also, I frankly don't give a damn if they nerf the Machariel or not. Don't get me wrong. I am extremely well trained for both the Rattlesnake and the Machariel (like, everything at V except Cruise/Torpedo/Large arties/Large autocannon specializations...for the moment) and I can put them both to good use in a whim.
Marcus Walkuris
Aww yeahhh
#52 - 2013-09-10 13:20:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Marcus Walkuris
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Darius Brinn wrote:
Well, it's what happens to the Rattlesnake: want to reach 150Km with your longest reaching drones? No launchers for you. Less paper DPS and less REAL, APPLIED DPS than the Dominix.


When you're arguing at such extreme ranges to make a point...the argument is thin.

A properly fitted 'snake will murder a Dominix in damage application at any reasonable range whilst tanking FAR better than said domi could ever dream of.


The rattler costs half as much for two reasons: 1) high skill requirement to make it 'work' and 2) People are obsessed about passive tanking it, it's real potential lies in an active tank and actually playing the ship as opposed to deploying drones and snoozing.

With a couple of 5% implants (cant be bothered reconfiguring, meh) it can spit out 1050-1240 DPS selectable damage out to its lock range whilst sporting a very serious tank indeed.

Yeah, totally sucks Roll


I don't like saying the rattler sucks either.
But as a sentry platform it is unable to utilize any realistic speed tank, or burn to gates at any reasonable pace.
The fact it can get 0 improved damage application through kiting really makes it absurd for it to be in the lowest speed/agility bracket with 4 missile launchers no less.
You do neglect to mention that a split in modules for drones and any kind of weapon-system (missiles in this case) are basically still in the era of split weapon systems when it comes to fitting slot consumption.
If the rattlesnake were to really be like what its current incarnation is supposed to be it will gain a bonus to missile/drone tracking mechanics and a substantial speed/agility increase just so it can effectively fit an AB without weak sauce dps
Not to mention it takes way too much rigging to make 4 launchers a substantial part of dps.

I wish they would just circumvent many of these issues by allowing sentries to be retrieved but not repositioned, or automatically reeled in with a tractor or cable after a certain distance.
Sentries being stationary is a fine mechanic but forcing the ship to do the same is imho simply a negative in all regards.
Maybe something outrageous like functioning heavy drones would help it come back to its original intention.
Until then lets not quote the rattlers very pleasant damage application too much, since all that is wiped away through being the most expensive slug in EvE with near to 0 mobility really destroying your time/isk.
This analyses probably wouldn't ring true too hard if it wasn't for everything being buffed like hell in the Rattlers respective category (read, RNI and Dominix, drones&missiles) while the rattler stands still in all regards.
In the end your rattler will costs you vastly more SP and micromanagement then it will reward you for, ending up as the next step after maxing your RNI skills with no real incentive to do so except for some hyper-specialized role.
The rattlesnake is not well understood unless you fly it, most of the people that comment on it do not fly it as often demonstrated in misinformed posts.
Most people hear from others that like flying the rattler and go from there, but most people will like rattlers if they fly them not worship them like Mach pilots.

P.S. The failure to understand the Snake by the community is very well illustrated in the severe price jump due to the cruise missile buff.
All that happened is an increase for 4 launchers, and a nerf to its tank barely an improvement but in a blind faith the dominix buff somehow rubbed off on the rattlesnake it jumped in price by 25-50%.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#53 - 2013-09-10 13:24:30 UTC
Why...would you not bring the right sentries to the party when it's PvE?

Moreover, why would you MJD....that's a novelty trick if your tank isnt up to it.


Clearly we just do different things.
Marcus Walkuris
Aww yeahhh
#54 - 2013-09-10 13:27:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Marcus Walkuris
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Why...would you not bring the right sentries to the party when it's PvE?

Moreover, why would you MJD....that's a novelty trick if your tank isnt up to it.


Clearly we just do different things.


I would love to hear how you deal with a gate 33-50 km out then with a sentry fit.
School me please.
No sarcasm intended, agreed on MJD except that an active fit makes you need one for larger missions due to being stationary.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#55 - 2013-09-10 14:20:16 UTC
I use a different boat. I'm not married to a single hull. For me the mobility thing isnt a factor because....different hulls.

Usually where there is travel time I'll fire up a CNR, maybe a TFI if its not that far.

Like I said, we just play differently Smile
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#56 - 2013-09-10 14:36:58 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Not a brick rattler no, but an active one, it's rather close. And guess what a brick rattler doesnt have the DPS. Neither breed of rattler has the speed or the sig either.



Close, to a Rattler? What are you smoking, and why aren't you sharing.

Do I need to point out why an 8 midslot battleship has a "slightly" better tank than a 5 mid battleship?


....and don't tell me armor tanks, because when you do that you are giving up insanely fast battleship advantage #1.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#57 - 2013-09-10 14:45:59 UTC
/sigh

The point of an active rattler is to leverage the launchers. That means rigors, that means painters on top of omnis that also means BCUs. When you add those the slots are far closer. The rattlers resists are offset by the fact the Mach is bombing about like a cruiser whereas the flying brick is lumbering along with a sig akin to that of a carrier....

It's not equal but its close enough for the point I was making which is that the Mach makes no sacrifices for what it can do. This toon picks the boat per mission, my alt has a Mach and doesnt bother because there's just no need. I can outperform the Mach, but only by cherrypicking fits and boats and fitting for absolute optimal for a given rat. Nothing wrong with being able to max out like that, what's dodgy is the Mach is damned close in performance terms and all my alt needs to do reload a different ammo type.

My CNR is close but not quite there. Mind you, it's a navy boat.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#58 - 2013-09-10 14:52:24 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
/sigh

The point of an active rattler is to leverage the launchers. That means rigors, that means painters on top of omnis that also means BCUs. When you add those the slots are far closer. The rattlers resists are offset by the fact the Mach is bombing about like a cruiser whereas the flying brick is lumbering along with a sig akin to that of a carrier....

It's not equal but its close enough for the point I was making which is that the Mach makes no sacrifices for what it can do. This toon picks the boat per mission, my alt has a Mach and doesnt bother because there's just no need. I can outperform the Mach, but only by cherrypicking fits and boats and fitting for absolute optimal for a given rat. Nothing wrong with being able to max out like that, what's dodgy is the Mach is damned close in performance terms and all my alt needs to do reload a different ammo type.

My CNR is close but not quite there. Mind you, it's a navy boat.



If you never flew the gallente or minmatar split bonus hulls you would know to ingore one. You don't bother with using 5 slots to use 4 unbonused lauchers, they are there for flavor, then even all of the drone mods yu could need there is plenty of space in the mids.

When you can carry three sets of heavy/sentries and three sets of lights at once who the hell needs a painter, or rigor/flare/BSC that is just silly.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#59 - 2013-09-10 14:58:36 UTC
That 'flavour' is kicking on for 490 DPS...I'm gonna go ahead and not ignore it Smile
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#60 - 2013-09-10 15:03:50 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
That 'flavour' is kicking on for 490 DPS...I'm gonna go ahead and not ignore it Smile



Yeah and you are wasting FIVE slots to get another 130DPS. Its a waist, and you are giving up that big advantage of the hull which is its natural god tank. Strikes me as doing it the hard way personally.