Player Features and Ideas Discussion

That's bitter! But it appears you agree it's a bad bonus

Yeah... and if I had known that a marauder don't meet my expectations today I never had skilled gunnery. Do you understand? Where you wanna stop with the refund?

With the amount of people calling for a scripted bastion module I doubt your alone

Before you propose any new ideas CCP should think about few things:

1) Do you really want to force players to use certain modules on hulls (mjd, web, active rep)?

2) If u consider marauder rebalancing in relation to Pirate BS do you consider that Pirate BS will also get rebalanced (so for example adding dmg to maruaders can be countered by adding even more dmg to Pirate BS's)?

4) The same as above but with Black Ops?

3) do you want the bastion to be an essential module (like on dreads) or do you want it be just an optional module (the whole effort with hull transformation seems to suggest the latter).

4) do you really think that improving marauders in some ways has to come up at the cost of adding some drawbacks (less hp, less speed, more mass etc.)

5) Do you want marauders to be solo or fleet ships?

6) Can u really justify the whole thing with low sensor strenght?

7) Does the increased effectiveness in PvE has to come at a price of screwing the ship for PvP?

8) Do you have to put marauders in line with other ships (like giving standard T2 resists for their race even though they screw certain ships for PvE) or can make them unique?

9) Have you considered making a bastion do something opposite than it does now:

a) removing rep bonus, adding resists bonus and allowing rr (few marauders making a spider tank in bastion would be probably OP, but still balance that out by prolonging the bastion cycle). This would actually justify their immobile nature.

or

b) instead of making them mini dreads make them mini carriers: bastion would allow rr and it would give a 100% both to active repairer (for PvE) and to RR (for PvP and Incursions). Than keeping range bonuses and not increasing dps would actually fit well with that role. But they should be allowed only to fit one rr not to overalp with logis.

You seem to be inserting words into the description, nothing here suggests a sneak-attack. Also the Marauders *still* have nothing to do with cloaking. I suggest you wait for the Black-Ops rebalance to start suggesting cloaky battleship ideas.

As for the "easy to blap" argument, just don't Bastion next to Dreadnaughts with Target Painter support...

Contrary to popular believe not everyone in Low and Null is waiting to drop Dreads and Carriers on you.

Also this is something of a moot point with me because if you missed it I've been arguing for Bastion to not be a required module for the ship to function.



You seem to be missing a few facts. First, any T1 battleship does not, infact, make a good L4 mission ship. There are a few T1 Battleships that make good L4 mission ships, these are basically limited to the Raven and the Dominix, everything else just has a flat harder time of it and doesn't compete with Pirate Battleships or Marauders where they are currently.

The issue is not straight buffs, the issue is things that actually do make them worse for L4 running, like taking the repair bonus off the hull. Don't want to use Bastion? Woops, can't do L4s effectively anymore.



Actually their main advantage is having to use less modules on tanking and repair compared to the Pirate Battleships. The original concept built off of this, which was good and actually made them better than the Pirate Battleships for missions. The current iteration I like less and I dislike the idea of Bastion being required for the ships to mission effectively as a whole.



I somewhat disagree here. Full T2 resists is a pretty big buff to them as incursion ships, so is the web bonus (probably a bit too much so in this case)

The problem is that it comes at the expense of a lot of their other PvE utility.



The Kronos is actually only 12.5% lower DPS than the Vindi, has utility high slots, and better resists while having the same web bonus and tracking. The only reason the Vindi is "better" is because of the web bonus. If you remove that the Kronos just in its first proposal version is better for incursions.

With full T2 resists it can probably out-DPS the Vindi in assaults and HQs by being able to fit one more damage mod due to better resists.

Massive Post Alert: Will try to format better (want table format codes!)

I've spent some time this afternoon working out some real numbers for the Paladin comparing the tanking capabilities of v1 and v2 of the rebalance proposals. I started with a 4 slot armor tank including a DCU2, 2x EANM2, and a repair module. This fit only leave room for 3 sinks in the lows, but can be made up for by fitting a T2 damage rig. I realized that you might want to run a 5 slot tank that includes a T2 nano pump to max repair amount. Those numbers are included for each repair module in the Repair Potential section of each fit.

Below are the first version numbers for the above fit with bastion not active. You'll see that the overall armor resists aren't too shabby even without T2 resists (EM/75,TH/68,KN/68,EX/70). The repair potential even for a LAR2 is well within tolerances for any level 4 mission and the DCU2 provides a healthy EHP total. However, when not in bastion you will still be popped quite easily by even a small group if you don't flee immediately.

Version 1 - Outside of Bastion

Resistances
Sheild EM TH KN EX
Base 0 20 47.5 62.5
DCU2 12.5 30 54.1 67.2

Armor EM TH KN EX
Base 50 35 34.4 40
DCU2 57.5 44.8 44.2 49
EANM2 68.1 58.6 58.2 61.75
EANM2 75 67.6 67.3 70

Hull EM TH KN EX
Base 0 0 0 0
DCU2 60 60 60 60

EHP Base EM TH KN EX
Shield 6300 7200 9000 13726 19207
Armor 8000 32000 24691 24465 26667
Hull 7700 19250 19250 19250 19250
Total 22000 58450 52941 57441 65124

Repair Potential
EM TH KN EX
LAR2 450/s 347/s 344/s 375/s
+ANP2 540/s 416/s 413/s 450/s
CorpusX 709/s 547/s 542/s 590/s
+ANP2 851/s 656/s 651/s 708/s
LAAR 760/s 586/s 581/s 633/s
+ANP2 912/s 703/s 697/s 760/s


The following set of numbers reflect the version 1 bastion module being activated. This is the version with 30% universal (non-stacking) resists and 100% rep bonus. Your armor resist profile and EHP improve accordingly (EM/83,TH/77,KN/77,EX/79). You'd have the rep power and EHP to ensure that only a serious group of gankers would want to play ball as you become an annoying target if not a deadly one.

The other major benefit I see here is with the gain in resistances, you could run with 1 less EANM2 while maintaining strong resists which would open up a low slot for a forth heat sink. This would also recover that rig slot for other uses. It also allows you to downgrade your repair module to something less gank desirable and still be very efficient while running missions.

Version 1 - Bastion Active

Resistances
Sheild EM TH KN EX
Base 0 20 47.5 62.5
DCU2 12.5 30 54.1 67.2
Bastion 38.75 51 67.87 77

Armor EM TH KN EX
Base 50 35 34.4 40
Bastion 65 54.5 54.15 58
DCU2 70.25 61.325 61.028 64.3
EANM2 77.69 70.99 70.77 73.23
EANM2 82.54 77.3 77.13 79.05

Hull EM TH KN EX
Base 0 0 0 0
DCU2 60 60 60 60
Bastion 72 72 72 72

EHP Base EM TH KN EX
Shield 6300 10286 12857 19608 27391
Armor 8000 45819 35242 34980 38186
Hull 7700 27500 27500 27500 27500
Total 22000 83605 75599 82088 93077

Repair Potential
EM TH KN EX
LAR2 1288/s 991/s 983/s 1074/s
+ANP2 1546/s 1189/s 1180/s 1289/s
CorpusX 2029/s 1560/s 1549/s 1691/s
+ANP2 2435/s 1872/s 1859/s 2029/s
LAAR 2176/s 1674/s 1661/s 1813/s
+ANP2 2611/s 2009/s 1993/s 2176/s


The numbers for the second version of the hulls and bastion module show how lackluster those changes are (at least for the Paladin). With the same number of tank slots allocated you wind up with slightly better resistances (EM/77,TH/71,KN/68,EX/83) but really only improved against Explosive damage with EM, Thermal, and Kenetic being nearly static. The problem is that as far as resistances go, you now HAVE to fit a 4 slot tank to fill the EM and Thermal holes in the T2 Amarr profile.

Another significant drawback to the second version is the new repair potential both outside of bastion and while it's active. You now must fit a LAAR or deadspace repair module to comfortably tank all level 4 missions/rooms. The T2 module is a little too light unless equiped along side a Nano Pump rig. You must enter bastion mode to obtain anywhere near the tanking power of the TQ version of the Paladin.

As far as fending off unwelcome guests, you are still quite vulnerable to even a small gang due to the reduced tank potential and also loss of EHP from the universal resists. The second version pretty much removes all fitting choses. Must have 4-5 slot tank. Must fit bastion module.

Version 2

Resistances
Sheild EM TH KN EX
Base 0 20 70 87.5
DCU2 12.5 30 74.5 89.4

Armor EM TH KN EX
Base 50 35 62.5 80
DCU2 57.5 44.8 68.1 83
EEMM2 77.4 44.8 68.1 83
ETHM2 77.4 70.7 68.1 83

Hull EM TH KN EX
Base 0 0 0 0
DCU2 60 60 60 60

EHP Base EM TH KN EX
Shield 6300 7200 9000 13726 19207
Armor 8000 35398 27304 25078 47059
Hull 7700 19250 19250 19250 19250
Total 22000 61848 55554 58054 85516

Repair Potential
Outside of Bastion
EM TH KN EX
LAR2 362/s 279/s 256/s 481/s
+ANP2 434/s 335/s 307/s 577/s
CorpusX 570/s 440/s 404/s 758/s
+ANP2 684/s 528/s 485/s 910/s
LAAR 611/s 471/s 433/s 812/s
+ANP2 733/s 565/s 520/s 975/s

Bastion Active
EM TH KN EX
LAR2 724/s 558/s 512/s 962/s
+ANP2 869/s 670/s 615/s 1155/s
CorpusX 1140/s 880/s 808/s 1516/s
+ANP2 1368/s 1056/s 970/s 1819/s
LAAR 1222/s 942/s 866/s 1624/s
+ANP2 1466/s 1130/s 1040/s 1950/s

I didn't really understand why the version 1 numbers were so amazing that they needed to be gutted until I started working the numbers for the shield tanked marauders. I'll post the same type of numbers for the Vargur after I finish them, but needless to say the shield numbers get quite rediculous. Shield tanking is why armor tanking can't have nice things.

tyvm for the effort : and yes it's indicating what it was I said in my earlier posts, "must fit ship one way or fail"

as for the shield marauders being uber for missions this is because of how ccp have structured armor and shield doctrines since eons ago, shields is focused more on self recovery, its repair modules are simply "better", faster.

armor was meant for attrition warfare, long drawn out fighting where it could use high resistances and large EHP to be effective when aided by other hulls.

this is why you have slave and crystal implant sets, but not equivalents for each tank doctrine, "shields are for rapid HP in small fights and armor are for long drawn out slug fests"

again, I'm trying to point out the issue's not with the ships, but with the methods ccp are making them use, any ship can be made to do anything (yay battlebadger) but you need the versatility of module fits - as it is my pvp marauders use 2 Large shield transfers, 1 large cap xfer, 4 800mm guns, pair of tracking comps and tank (this is a vargur) they completely discard the active rep and tractor bonuses...cuz i don't need them/can't reliably use them in pvp (other ships make up for the absence (logis etc))

i won't need the bastion module, cuz it's going to hurt me more than it helps, it ruins my ability to relocate

i won't need the MJD because i can't move in a way that's not easily predictable, using the MJD will cripple me by forcing me to act in a way the opponent can already see coming.

^in pvp i probably would need to drop my tracking comps to support the MJD, which means no decent long range guns, which means a dead battleship.


in PVE the vargur suffers horribly for capacitor, while you're right in saying that the repair amounts are absurd (they're by design supposed to be) I can't fit energy vampires that the other three marauders can to offset the burn, nor have the power grid to use a cap booster well, were it nor for the fact the vargur has such amazing tracking speed (can hit and kill enemies faster) the maelstrom would be a better option.

ccp needs to keep ships and their bonuses as general/broad as they can, they seem to have subscribed to the ideas that:

"there are PVE and PVP ships and no matter what you do a PVP ship can't do PVE and a PVE ship can't PVP"
when:
there are PVE fittings and PVP fittings, that when applied to a ship make it good at PVE or PVP, a ship can perform any task depending on the fitting you've given it."

they really have to start playing their game again....

This is what excites me the most. Rather than spending more isk on faction mods than the hull is worth to get a decent tank, you can get an amazing tank and focus on other things instead. 60 seconds may be a risky situation but i think there will be some interesting tactics to come out of this to maximize it's potential.

Overall they're not loosing much EHP by dropping raw hitpoints as long as they're gaining resists, either through T2 resists or Bastion or both. Rawr hitpoints don't matter very much for PvE though, and only matter marginally for PvP compared to the combination of raw hitpoints and resists values.

As for the shield vs armor debate, you can get pretty good tank out of armor due to better overall resists with less capacitor. Plus as you already pointed out, these ridiculous ASB tanking fits aren't terribly practical. Either way though the issue of ASBs vs AARs is only tangentially related to the Marauders. Maybe it deserves its own thread but that's up to CCP.

As for the T2 resists vs local repair bonus, I've mentioned that a good three or four times, specifically that it hurts the Vargur and Paladin for missions far more than the Golem or Kronos.

To illustrate:

Paladin v2

Armor UnBast/Bast
Therm: 35% / 48%
Kin: 62.5% / 70%
Exp: 80% / 84%
EM: 50% / 60%

Shield UnBast/Bast:
Therm: 20% / 36%
Kin: 70% / 76%
Exp: 87.5% / 90%
EM: 0% / 20%

Hull UnBast/Bast:
Therm: 0% / 20%
Kin: 0% / 20%
Exp: 0% / 20%
EM: 0% / 20%