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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#3061 - 2013-09-07 11:26:43 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Gimme more Cynos wrote:

Sometimes I wonder how people can use CNR's, nightmares, machs and vindicators for lv 4's without those tank-bonuses.. Pirate



The hilarious thing is that people who point out the pirate ship's tanks are really only emphasizing how bad these marauder proposals are. Tanks is the only thing Marauders have going for them and now that is getting nerfed on the base hulls. I mean, lets be serious, given this proposal who wants to actually trade their pirate BS for a Marauder?

I was thinking the same thing.

A few points that I thought of also, the T2 resists were done because some wanted better fleet application for a solo ship.
A pirate ship in an incursion fleet usually has a 2~4 slot tank and has no T2 resists at all.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#3062 - 2013-09-07 12:00:14 UTC
Zillu Ban wrote:
To be honest, all I can see is detriment for the Vargur.

Removing the boost amount bonus, then implementing the resist bonus that will produce a similar amount of tank leaves you with the same old Vargur.

Having more damage application when it is forced to sit in the same spot for 60 seconds. If you could actually move, damage application isn't as much of an issue because you can move towards what you are shooting, or mitigate transversal with manual piloting.

The reduction in MJD cooldown is again, gimped by the notion that once MJD'ing, you're going to be stationary for 60 seconds, letting any competent tackle pilot lock you down with at least 40 seconds to spare.

I don't see any net gain out of either of these, except for the detriment of having to sit around like a muppet for 60 seconds yelling "Drop me!" (Not too good for PvE or PvP anywhere.)

Making the bastion module imperative to the use of the marauder truly pushes it further into a niche that is even more rare than a dread, which is pretty much condemned to shooting structures and capitals (on the very rare occasion) only, and makes an additional prerequisite for flying marauders. Are they going to become more skill intensive than a titan? What?

Bastion doesn't have a damage bonus, why would you use these for structure bashing?

Bad reading comprehension?

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

AskariRising
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#3063 - 2013-09-07 12:21:57 UTC
Zillu Ban wrote:
To be honest, all I can see is detriment for the Vargur.

Removing the boost amount bonus, then implementing the resist bonus that will produce a similar amount of tank leaves you with the same old Vargur.

Having more damage application when it is forced to sit in the same spot for 60 seconds. If you could actually move, damage application isn't as much of an issue because you can move towards what you are shooting, or mitigate transversal with manual piloting.

The reduction in MJD cooldown is again, gimped by the notion that once MJD'ing, you're going to be stationary for 60 seconds, letting any competent tackle pilot lock you down with at least 40 seconds to spare.

I don't see any net gain out of either of these, except for the detriment of having to sit around like a muppet for 60 seconds yelling "Drop me!" (Not too good for PvE or PvP anywhere.)

Making the bastion module imperative to the use of the marauder truly pushes it further into a niche that is even more rare than a dread, which is pretty much condemned to shooting structures and capitals (on the very rare occasion) only, and makes an additional prerequisite for flying marauders. Are they going to become more skill intensive than a titan? What?


heavy neut the tackle?
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#3064 - 2013-09-07 12:29:06 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Bastion doesn't have a damage bonus, why would you use these for structure bashing?

Bad reading comprehension?

Well, it still does have a niche of gringing hisec dickstars (or at least bringing down those arrays so that you can continue grinding with ABCs or something like that) in case you don't have manpower to overwhelm them. I don't know how much that amounts to "structure bashing" though.

Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#3065 - 2013-09-07 12:34:31 UTC
Baal Zann wrote:
Roime wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Roime wrote:
Baal Zann wrote:
honestly without the tank bonus they're just plain going to be too soft, i was excited when i heard about this in the first iteration, now im thinking about selling my vargur, without its current rep bonus its going to tank uselessly without the bastion mod, and with the bastion mod it wont tank enough, is immobile, and has a ton of close range advantages when its used as a long range ship, seems like its just going to fall through the cracks


So in your world 100% bonus together with buffed resists is less than 37.5% bonus?


" its going to tank uselessly without the bastion mod,"

There is no rep bonus outside of bastion, so the 100% doesn't always apply.

The vargur loses Kin/EX tank outside of bastion, which for those that use it against all factions due to damage type versatility means yes, they are loosing tank against some factions.

ED: With the bastion it should handle anything thrown at it, so not seeing an issue there.


"and with the bastion mod it wont tank enough"

And the resist buff is very close to the amount of old rep bonus.

im talking pvp not pve, pve it could still be usefull i suppose due to specific resist targets, but in pvp you want omnitank, and even with a bastion mod, thats just not enough due to the removal of the hull specific rep bonus


How much do they tank in bastion, and what do you consider "enough" tank for "pvp"? Solo Oneiros amount? Pair of Guards? Dozen triage Archon? Dual XLASB Mael? Triple rep Hype?

Just trying to figure out what you mean, and if it's based on actual numbers.

.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#3066 - 2013-09-07 12:41:18 UTC
Zillu Ban wrote:
The reduction in MJD cooldown is again, gimped by the notion that once MJD'ing, you're going to be stationary for 60 seconds, letting any competent tackle pilot lock you down with at least 40 seconds to spare.

Let me clarify the situation for you :
Is the target within 13km ?
- yes : web and kill ; MJD out.
- no : MJD out.

These things will have the best subcap tank, and rival the best subcap firepower, and that's without bastion. With MJD, they have a very good mobility, either to go in or out of a field of battle, whatever the range they need, because the web bonus allow to pin down anything and melt it in seconds if it come too close.

These things will be very hard to kill I'm afraid, without a good fleet. Or maybe it's a stealth Keres buff ?
AskariRising
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#3067 - 2013-09-07 12:42:43 UTC  |  Edited by: AskariRising
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Time for another update.

We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:


  • Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.

  • We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.

  • Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.


I will change the OP to match the changes.


why the sudden change of mind regarding making marauders super tanked BS's?

also, can we have increased range on webs while in bastion mode? it would help us make the most of our damage projection by keeping enemies at range
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#3068 - 2013-09-07 12:44:47 UTC
Roime wrote:

"and with the bastion mod it wont tank enough"

And the resist buff is very close to the amount of old rep bonus.


The confusion you have is that he's referring to the first iteration of this proposal which was;
Keep the rep bonus of the current live-on-TQ hulls
When in bastion, add 100% rep amount AND 30% resists

he is not referring to the currently live Marauder.

Now you have:
No rep bonus (ie; 37.5% less reps than the live Marauder)
Webs (yay)
When in bastion, add 100% rep amount
T2 resists (as pointed out elsewhere, not universal in any way, and have glaring holes)

So. You go from
Current Live: 1.375 reppers effective, deal with it.
Iteration 1: 1.375 reppers out of Bastion, and 2.75 reppers in Bastion, plus 30% free resists
Iteration 2: 1 repper out of Bastion, 2 reppers in bastion, and slightly better resists vs SOME rats.

Your point, and others have made this too, that you can fill resist holes with a 2 slot tank is fair. You won't have to spend all your mids on a Vargur to attain a mid-range tank. Just 2. Leaving one for the MJD, one for a web, and presumably one for a shield booster, one for a cap booster (or if mad enough, a disruptor). Sounds fine. Except you're losing a 37.5% repair bonus for spotty resists, so you are no further ahead.

True, you can pick and choose your rats. You can blink out to range and turtle up for extra pwnage. But compared to Iteration 1, the current Iteration 2 proposal strips you of the base 37.5% repair bonus and leaves you with almost no fitting options. This is sub-optimal for emergent gameplay.

Realistically, CCP Ytterbium, CCP Rise and CCP Fozzie should have realised the 30% resist bonus was a bridge too far, and trimmed it back to 12.5% across the board resists, or indeed, none at all. The idea of 2.75 effective reppers with no special resist bonuses is enough to get me excited about bringing a Marauder to PVP in small gang situations, with solid tactics and solid intel. That alone would be around 1900-3200 DPS tank depending on bling factor.

That's fine, to my mind. But dropping the Marauder's rep bonus for T2 resists is not. It favours tanking some rats, and leaves you with shite performance against others (and some missions where, eg, Angels employ EM turrets, etc). This isn't always sufficient to realistically rely on bastion; you just get 2 effective reppers and the same achilles heel resist holes.

That is what this hooplah is about.

Bastion mode and everything is more or less fine in iteration 2. The real problem has been the gutting of the rep bonus for useless webs and applying T2 resists. This benefits nothing.

~~ Localectomy Blog ~~
Gimme more Cynos
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#3069 - 2013-09-07 12:57:48 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Gimme more Cynos wrote:

Sometimes I wonder how people can use CNR's, nightmares, machs and vindicators for lv 4's without those tank-bonuses.. Pirate



The hilarious thing is that people who point out the pirate ship's tanks are really only emphasizing how bad these marauder proposals are. Tanks is the only thing Marauders have going for them and now that is getting nerfed on the base hulls. I mean, lets be serious, given this proposal who wants to actually trade their pirate BS for a Marauder?


I wouldn't fly a marauder because of tank - I would fly it because of it's damage application. That's why I still use the CNR over a golem, although I do have Marauders V. Damage application is almost the same, so why change? Because of the tank I don't need anyway? Sure.
marVLs
#3070 - 2013-09-07 12:58:40 UTC
Do we get completely new ship models?

Just redone?

Or maybe not even touched?


How complicated animation will be?
Zillu Ban
The Sheila's
Heloderma-Suspectum
#3071 - 2013-09-07 13:01:47 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:

Bastion doesn't have a damage bonus, why would you use these for structure bashing?

Bad reading comprehension?


Sorry, I may not have made it clear. I was saying that the Marauder would have a niche so small people most likely won't even bother training for them. I was comparing it to the dread, which has the 2 purposes of structure and capital bashing.
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#3072 - 2013-09-07 13:04:57 UTC
marVLs wrote:
Do we get completely new ship models?

Just redone?

Or maybe not even touched?


How complicated animation will be?

This id love to know.

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
CanI haveyourstuff
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#3073 - 2013-09-07 13:12:38 UTC  |  Edited by: CanI haveyourstuff
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Let me clarify the situation for you :
Is the target within 13km ?
- yes : web and kill ; MJD out.
- no : MJD out.

These things will have the best subcap tank, and rival the best subcap firepower, and that's without bastion. With MJD, they have a very good mobility, either to go in or out of a field of battle, whatever the range they need, because the web bonus allow to pin down anything and melt it in seconds if it come too close.

These things will be very hard to kill I'm afraid, without a good fleet. Or maybe it's a stealth Keres buff ?


and in what eve world there is even slightest chance that you can execute either of those options?

99.9% there will be another factor that neglects whole "new" marauder bastion stuff and it ends up being "warp warp warp warp fast safespot plzplzplzplz warp nauuuuuu!"

in theory it's cool situational story bro
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#3074 - 2013-09-07 13:13:48 UTC
Trinkets friend wrote:

That's fine, to my mind. But dropping the Marauder's rep bonus for T2 resists is not. It favours tanking some rats, and leaves you with shite performance against others (and some missions where, eg, Angels employ EM turrets, etc). This isn't always sufficient to realistically rely on bastion; you just get 2 effective reppers and the same achilles heel resist holes.

That is what this hooplah is about.

Bastion mode and everything is more or less fine in iteration 2. The real problem has been the gutting of the rep bonus for useless webs and applying T2 resists. This benefits nothing.


They had to gut it because it was OP for niche situations and of very limited use outside those situations. Replacing it with T2 expands marauder usability, while still keeping bastion tanking viable. It works much better with logi now.

I can see how the web bonus is useless for LR fits, but it's extremely powerful on close range fits.

T2 resists and webs benefit PVP applications.

.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3075 - 2013-09-07 13:26:14 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Gimme more Cynos wrote:

Sometimes I wonder how people can use CNR's, nightmares, machs and vindicators for lv 4's without those tank-bonuses.. Pirate



The hilarious thing is that people who point out the pirate ship's tanks are really only emphasizing how bad these marauder proposals are. Tanks is the only thing Marauders have going for them and now that is getting nerfed on the base hulls. I mean, lets be serious, given this proposal who wants to actually trade their pirate BS for a Marauder?



My exact point earlier


Make the maraders slightly toned down pirate BSs......

problem. solved.
MBizon Osis
Doomheim
#3076 - 2013-09-07 13:36:46 UTC
What ever happens to the marauder class it will prolly be a mostly pve boat (due to price tag) and as such will have lots of wrecks to clean up. If the MJD is used to any extent the wrecks might be widely spread(100+km). I know a lot of posters in this threadnought either want the tractor bonus expanded to be useful or eliminated altogether.

Proponents of tractor beam bonus elimination have stated that have a 2nd ship (noctis) is the way it's done. Using a 2nd account or going back for the 2nd ship adds more time to missions for sure. I use salvage drones myself. Maybe they believe cutting a bonus they don't want frees up room for one they do want?
Personally my 2nd account started off as a noctis driver. After a awhile I came to realize that I still can't safely run a lvl4 and salvage at the same time. Having your single account have to go and get your noctis to come back and salvage/loot adds half again more time to each mission. Dual boxing with 2 accounts running a mission and salvaging on the other can be done but not all of us have the set up for that.
Adding the 4th high slot to the marauders as part of re-balancing them gives us a chance to see if expanding the salvaging/tractor beam bonus might be for the greater good. As the fastest way to salvage would be on the fly as you are making wrecks.
(Role Bonus:500% bonus to tractor beam range and 100% bonus to tractor beam velocity(orca) 100km
or
Marauder Skill Bonus:5% bonus to Tractor Beam and Salvager cycle time and 60% bonus to Tractor Beam range and velocity per level (noctis) 96km @ lvl5
or
Role Bonus: 99% reduction in the powergrid need, 50% reduction in the capacitor need, and 50% reduction in the CPU need of Capital Tractor Beams. They are able to fit Cap Tracks due to significant reductions in the powergrid, CPU and capacitor requirements for these mods.750pg,55cpu,100JG cap(like tier 3 BCs) 200km

Please consider these options as the bonus and it stands now is weak and needs a buff.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#3077 - 2013-09-07 13:41:02 UTC
MBizon Osis wrote:
What ever happens to the marauder class it will prolly be a mostly pve boat (due to price tag)


Like T3s, pirate ships and capitals?

.
MBizon Osis
Doomheim
#3078 - 2013-09-07 13:49:15 UTC
Roime wrote:
MBizon Osis wrote:
What ever happens to the marauder class it will prolly be a mostly pve boat (due to price tag)


Like T3s, pirate ships and capitals?




The caps I can't say as I don't fly em, but the rest do a lot of pve and your point?
NextDarkKnight
Storm Chasers.
Pandemic Horde
#3079 - 2013-09-07 13:55:24 UTC  |  Edited by: NextDarkKnight
Wait, So if I am to understand this correctly.. The v2 changes require you to have the new module fitted to the ship? I would still like consideration for a small drone bay only when the new module is fitted so players have CHOICE of how they want to fit there ship out. Won't removing the boost rate hurt people not using the module to the point of the ship not being a option?

Also, Consider using the Micro Jump drive with a percent option to allow for shorter jumps. 50% power will jump you 50,000 etc etc..
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#3080 - 2013-09-07 13:57:59 UTC
MBizon Osis wrote:
Roime wrote:
MBizon Osis wrote:
What ever happens to the marauder class it will prolly be a mostly pve boat (due to price tag)


Like T3s, pirate ships and capitals?




The caps I can't say as I don't fly em, but the rest do a lot of pve and your point?


That pricetag doesn't make ships "mostly PVE", marauders aren't especially expensive compared to normal T3 fits, and nothing compared to pirate BS fits or caps.

.