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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Crellion
Nano Rhinos
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#3041 - 2013-09-07 09:07:55 UTC
Roime wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Roime wrote:
Alternatively, you MJD right into middle of the rat blob, bastion and kill them with close range guns with extended range and bonused web, resulting in faster completion than shooting them from range.



You jump into a blob, turn on your tank... oh, wait: you brought webbers instead of a tank. Roll


Yep, armor tankers have the midslot advantage, but the upgraded resists and bastion bonus to reps means that you can tank rats with less slots.


It might take a while for non-pvper mission runners to realise the difference a bonused web makes on missile dmg application...
Caleb Seremshur
Commando Guri
Guristas Pirates
#3042 - 2013-09-07 09:14:55 UTC
True, cruise missiles and torps will benefit quite a bit from a bonused web.

But in missions it's kind of pointless: most ships orbit under 100m/s iirc anyway.
Stirlsha
Tranquility Tavern
Pandemic Horde
#3043 - 2013-09-07 09:18:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Stirlsha
Crellion wrote:


It might take a while for non-pvper mission runners to realise the difference a bonused web makes on missile dmg application...


Yeah... I'm kinda coming round to it all now. For cruises the web bonus is useless... but for torps, up close and personal, with the TP bonus too? Golem gonna be an animal.

I'm a bit nervous about losing the armor rep/sheild boost bonuses in non bastion.

But apart from that, I reckon these proposed changes are pretty interesting.
Baal Zann
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#3044 - 2013-09-07 09:24:57 UTC
honestly without the tank bonus they're just plain going to be too soft, i was excited when i heard about this in the first iteration, now im thinking about selling my vargur, without its current rep bonus its going to tank uselessly without the bastion mod, and with the bastion mod it wont tank enough, is immobile, and has a ton of close range advantages when its used as a long range ship, seems like its just going to fall through the cracks
Bagrat Skalski
Koinuun Kotei
#3045 - 2013-09-07 09:26:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Bagrat Skalski
Old developing quote "if you want to do something what will be good for anything, it will not excel in anything". I mean, this golem will be like a swiss knife with tiny blades and screwdrivers for any occasion, not a battle knife with fixed blade or screwdriver. Lol


Bonuses to MJD, webs, nerfed hitpoints, capacitor, you are really making it like a swiss knife. It was PVE ship, and you still want to make it PVP? You nerfed its active ASB tank and resistances for armor, shield and hull in the second variation. This will not work.

Custom ship skins, character creator style "repaint". Bring it!
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#3046 - 2013-09-07 09:26:51 UTC
Stirlsha wrote:
Crellion wrote:


It might take a while for non-pvper mission runners to realise the difference a bonused web makes on missile dmg application...


Yeah... I'm kinda coming round to it all now. For cruises the web bonus is useless... but for torps, up close and personal, with the TP bonus too? Golem gonna be an animal.

I'm a bit nervous about losing the armor rep/sheild boost bonuses in non bastion.

But apart from that, I reckon these proposed changes are pretty interesting.


If you bring torps, then all sniping bonus are wasted. MJD wasted and bastion range bonus is wasted. Oh, and remember that you traded your tank for those webbers... maybe you even got rid of the TP, in order to be deadly at 1/3 of your max torpedo range.

It oozes Sense... Non-Sense.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you
Stirlsha
Tranquility Tavern
Pandemic Horde
#3047 - 2013-09-07 09:33:30 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Stirlsha wrote:
Crellion wrote:


It might take a while for non-pvper mission runners to realise the difference a bonused web makes on missile dmg application...


Yeah... I'm kinda coming round to it all now. For cruises the web bonus is useless... but for torps, up close and personal, with the TP bonus too? Golem gonna be an animal.

I'm a bit nervous about losing the armor rep/sheild boost bonuses in non bastion.

But apart from that, I reckon these proposed changes are pretty interesting.


If you bring torps, then all sniping bonus are wasted. MJD wasted and bastion range bonus is wasted. Oh, and remember that you traded your tank for those webbers... maybe you even got rid of the TP, in order to be deadly at 1/3 of your max torpedo range.

It oozes Sense... Non-Sense.


Well, like i say, still confused a bit by webs for cruises.

But as i see it in bastion mode you'll have plenty of tank.

Happy to be corrected by fact rather than opinion tho.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#3048 - 2013-09-07 09:36:12 UTC
Baal Zann wrote:
honestly without the tank bonus they're just plain going to be too soft, i was excited when i heard about this in the first iteration, now im thinking about selling my vargur, without its current rep bonus its going to tank uselessly without the bastion mod, and with the bastion mod it wont tank enough, is immobile, and has a ton of close range advantages when its used as a long range ship, seems like its just going to fall through the cracks


So in your world 100% bonus together with buffed resists is less than 37.5% bonus?

.
Edora Madullier
French Kiss Singularity
#3049 - 2013-09-07 10:07:35 UTC
Roime wrote:
Baal Zann wrote:
honestly without the tank bonus they're just plain going to be too soft, i was excited when i heard about this in the first iteration, now im thinking about selling my vargur, without its current rep bonus its going to tank uselessly without the bastion mod, and with the bastion mod it wont tank enough, is immobile, and has a ton of close range advantages when its used as a long range ship, seems like its just going to fall through the cracks


So in your world 100% bonus together with buffed resists is less than 37.5% bonus?



The short range guys will have to deal with an awful lot of DPS, since they will be forced to stand still in the middle of the enemies if they want to benefit from the tank bonus. Don't forget that your so-called buffed resists don't apply for any rat type.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3050 - 2013-09-07 10:16:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Roime wrote:
Baal Zann wrote:
honestly without the tank bonus they're just plain going to be too soft, i was excited when i heard about this in the first iteration, now im thinking about selling my vargur, without its current rep bonus its going to tank uselessly without the bastion mod, and with the bastion mod it wont tank enough, is immobile, and has a ton of close range advantages when its used as a long range ship, seems like its just going to fall through the cracks


So in your world 100% bonus together with buffed resists is less than 37.5% bonus?


" its going to tank uselessly without the bastion mod,"

There is no rep bonus outside of bastion, so the 100% doesn't always apply.

The vargur loses Kin/EX tank outside of bastion, which for those that use it against all factions due to damage type versatility means yes, they are loosing tank against some factions.

ED: With the bastion it should handle anything thrown at it, so not seeing an issue there.
Striscio
Doomheim
#3051 - 2013-09-07 10:24:08 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Roime wrote:
Baal Zann wrote:
honestly without the tank bonus they're just plain going to be too soft, i was excited when i heard about this in the first iteration, now im thinking about selling my vargur, without its current rep bonus its going to tank uselessly without the bastion mod, and with the bastion mod it wont tank enough, is immobile, and has a ton of close range advantages when its used as a long range ship, seems like its just going to fall through the cracks


So in your world 100% bonus together with buffed resists is less than 37.5% bonus?


" its going to tank uselessly without the bastion mod,"

There is no rep bonus outside of bastion, so the 100% doesn't always apply.

The vargur loses Kin/EX tank outside of bastion, which for those that use it against all factions due to damage type versatility means yes, they are loosing tank against some factions.

ED: With the bastion it should handle anything thrown at it, so not seeing an issue there.


Bastion is static too, it means you need at least 60 sec on the spot. Usually not a problem for a Golem but others Marauders need to "dance" around quite a lot for falloff/optimal range (take note that often spawns aren't close enough to use a single bastion standing point)
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#3052 - 2013-09-07 10:40:24 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Roime wrote:
Baal Zann wrote:
honestly without the tank bonus they're just plain going to be too soft, i was excited when i heard about this in the first iteration, now im thinking about selling my vargur, without its current rep bonus its going to tank uselessly without the bastion mod, and with the bastion mod it wont tank enough, is immobile, and has a ton of close range advantages when its used as a long range ship, seems like its just going to fall through the cracks


So in your world 100% bonus together with buffed resists is less than 37.5% bonus?


" its going to tank uselessly without the bastion mod,"

There is no rep bonus outside of bastion, so the 100% doesn't always apply.

The vargur loses Kin/EX tank outside of bastion, which for those that use it against all factions due to damage type versatility means yes, they are loosing tank against some factions.

ED: With the bastion it should handle anything thrown at it, so not seeing an issue there.


"and with the bastion mod it wont tank enough"

And the resist buff is very close to the amount of old rep bonus.

.
Baal Zann
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#3053 - 2013-09-07 10:55:35 UTC
Roime wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Roime wrote:
Baal Zann wrote:
honestly without the tank bonus they're just plain going to be too soft, i was excited when i heard about this in the first iteration, now im thinking about selling my vargur, without its current rep bonus its going to tank uselessly without the bastion mod, and with the bastion mod it wont tank enough, is immobile, and has a ton of close range advantages when its used as a long range ship, seems like its just going to fall through the cracks


So in your world 100% bonus together with buffed resists is less than 37.5% bonus?


" its going to tank uselessly without the bastion mod,"

There is no rep bonus outside of bastion, so the 100% doesn't always apply.

The vargur loses Kin/EX tank outside of bastion, which for those that use it against all factions due to damage type versatility means yes, they are loosing tank against some factions.

ED: With the bastion it should handle anything thrown at it, so not seeing an issue there.


"and with the bastion mod it wont tank enough"

And the resist buff is very close to the amount of old rep bonus.

im talking pvp not pve, pve it could still be usefull i suppose due to specific resist targets, but in pvp you want omnitank, and even with a bastion mod, thats just not enough due to the removal of the hull specific rep bonus
Gimme more Cynos
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#3054 - 2013-09-07 10:56:42 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Roime wrote:
Baal Zann wrote:
honestly without the tank bonus they're just plain going to be too soft, i was excited when i heard about this in the first iteration, now im thinking about selling my vargur, without its current rep bonus its going to tank uselessly without the bastion mod, and with the bastion mod it wont tank enough, is immobile, and has a ton of close range advantages when its used as a long range ship, seems like its just going to fall through the cracks


So in your world 100% bonus together with buffed resists is less than 37.5% bonus?


" its going to tank uselessly without the bastion mod,"

There is no rep bonus outside of bastion, so the 100% doesn't always apply.

The vargur loses Kin/EX tank outside of bastion, which for those that use it against all factions due to damage type versatility means yes, they are loosing tank against some factions.

ED: With the bastion it should handle anything thrown at it, so not seeing an issue there.


Sometimes I wonder how people can use CNR's, nightmares, machs and vindicators for lv 4's without those tank-bonuses.. Pirate
The Spod
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#3055 - 2013-09-07 11:01:33 UTC
The use for webs in pve is going to be in nullsec anoms, incursions and whs. I still don't like the bonus, it has nothing to do with marauders other than to make them solo station games ships. Marauders should be fleet ships and specialized, not solo active tank pvp mobiles.

Just ditch the webs, they are arbitrary design. Less is more.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3056 - 2013-09-07 11:01:45 UTC
Gimme more Cynos wrote:

Sometimes I wonder how people can use CNR's, nightmares, machs and vindicators for lv 4's without those tank-bonuses.. Pirate





Hell the usual mach has nearly no tank at all
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3057 - 2013-09-07 11:10:16 UTC
Roime wrote:
"and with the bastion mod it wont tank enough"
I already stated I disagreed with the idea that bastion wouldn't tank enough.

Roime wrote:
And the resist buff is very close to the amount of old rep bonus.
And again, only selectively. T2 resists are not universal resist increases. Against EM/Therm the paladin was nerfed. Against Kin/EX The Vargur was nerfed. Kronos/Golem, EM/EX nerf.

The Kronos is fixed in damage type output with rats match it's resist strengths, no loss when used within it's strengths. Paladin has fixed damage types as well, preferring mostly rats which will fire directly into the nerfed portion of it's tank. Vargur/Golem have more damage selectability. Utilizing that advantage means going against damage types to which their tank was nerfed at times.

3/4 cases with potential nerfs rather than gains. It's pretty objectively worse for active tanking looking at overall usage than the repair bonus was. The additional buffer gains are also partially negated by the lower HP frequently present in comparable Navy faction variants offering lower costs.
Dave Stark
#3058 - 2013-09-07 11:11:51 UTC
The Spod wrote:
The use for webs in pve is going to be in nullsec anoms, incursions and whs. I still don't like the bonus, it has nothing to do with marauders other than to make them solo station games ships. Marauders should be fleet ships and specialized, not solo active tank pvp mobiles.

Just ditch the webs, they are arbitrary design. Less is more.


considering vindicators are used in fleets, often for their web bonus, your argument doesn't make much sense.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3059 - 2013-09-07 11:15:23 UTC
Gimme more Cynos wrote:

Sometimes I wonder how people can use CNR's, nightmares, machs and vindicators for lv 4's without those tank-bonuses.. Pirate



The hilarious thing is that people who point out the pirate ship's tanks are really only emphasizing how bad these marauder proposals are. Tanks is the only thing Marauders have going for them and now that is getting nerfed on the base hulls. I mean, lets be serious, given this proposal who wants to actually trade their pirate BS for a Marauder?
Zillu Ban
The Sheila's
Heloderma-Suspectum
#3060 - 2013-09-07 11:24:55 UTC
To be honest, all I can see is detriment for the Vargur.

Removing the boost amount bonus, then implementing the resist bonus that will produce a similar amount of tank leaves you with the same old Vargur.

Having more damage application when it is forced to sit in the same spot for 60 seconds. If you could actually move, damage application isn't as much of an issue because you can move towards what you are shooting, or mitigate transversal with manual piloting.

The reduction in MJD cooldown is again, gimped by the notion that once MJD'ing, you're going to be stationary for 60 seconds, letting any competent tackle pilot lock you down with at least 40 seconds to spare.

I don't see any net gain out of either of these, except for the detriment of having to sit around like a muppet for 60 seconds yelling "Drop me!" (Not too good for PvE or PvP anywhere.)

Making the bastion module imperative to the use of the marauder truly pushes it further into a niche that is even more rare than a dread, which is pretty much condemned to shooting structures and capitals (on the very rare occasion) only, and makes an additional prerequisite for flying marauders. Are they going to become more skill intensive than a titan? What?