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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Cade Windstalker
#3021 - 2013-09-07 04:34:12 UTC
Baal Zann wrote:
was afk getting pizza, sorry the reply is late: yes. fleet issue phoon can get 1800 dps at the same range give or take as a kronos, im going to assume a cnr can get even more, a vindi with gank fit can even get 3k, so yeah, kronos is probably the weakest marauder atm imo, due to lack of range


Care to post a fit on that Vindi? Because the most I've seen is ~2k and that was with 6% implants and faction fittings. I suppose you could do better with Officer gear but we're not balancing against that.

As for Vindi vs Kronos specifically we have 50mbits less bandwidth on the Kronos, but that's a fairly minor loss.

The Kronos has 8 effective turrets with a 25% damage bonus at max level. The Vindicator has 8 actual turrets with a 37.5% damage bonus. The Vindicator does 12.5% more damage than the Kronos, plus 2 unbonused Heavy or Sentry drones.

The fleet-typhoon has 6 of each hardpoint, 8 high slots, and a 7.5% per level damage bonus to both missiles and projectiles. The CNR on the other hand actually has less damage since it has 8 missile hardpoints but no damage bonus, it has range and application bonuses.

Again, please check your numbers before posting. Thank you.
Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#3022 - 2013-09-07 04:37:01 UTC
Baal Zann wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Baal Zann wrote:
Mer88 wrote:
How did you manage to get almost double the dps in a navy BS vs in a marauder?



easily, marauders bar the golem do not put out massive dps, they just apply it easier, and track smaller targets

EDIT: forgot the kronos, and both can be out dps'd by a navy ship


Which actually does very comparable DPS to the current Kronos on TQ. I'm staring at 1442 on the Kronos with all 5s vs 1486 on the Navy Mega.

Saying that they do "almost twice" is an extreme exageration. In reality three of the four have damage bonuses and the forth, the Golem, ends up dead-even for DPS with the Navy Raven at 8 effective turrets and 75mbits of bandwidth each.

Please check numbers before posting ridiculous claims, please and thank you Ugh


was afk getting pizza, sorry the reply is late: yes. fleet issue phoon can get 1800 dps at the same range give or take as a kronos, im going to assume a cnr can get even more, a vindi with gank fit can even get 3k, so yeah, kronos is probably the weakest marauder atm imo, due to lack of range


i see well those high dps is only under certain condition with really terrible damage application and bare mim tank. but when you are talking about mission fits that an average player use that is more suitable for many different types of mission. a marauder and a navy bs has the same dps generally speaking. Also, typhoon lacks missile speed which means you lose many volley much easily just like the navy scorpion.
Baal Zann
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#3023 - 2013-09-07 04:43:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Baal Zann
Mer88 wrote:
Baal Zann wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Baal Zann wrote:
Mer88 wrote:
How did you manage to get almost double the dps in a navy BS vs in a marauder?



easily, marauders bar the golem do not put out massive dps, they just apply it easier, and track smaller targets

EDIT: forgot the kronos, and both can be out dps'd by a navy ship


Which actually does very comparable DPS to the current Kronos on TQ. I'm staring at 1442 on the Kronos with all 5s vs 1486 on the Navy Mega.

Saying that they do "almost twice" is an extreme exageration. In reality three of the four have damage bonuses and the forth, the Golem, ends up dead-even for DPS with the Navy Raven at 8 effective turrets and 75mbits of bandwidth each.

Please check numbers before posting ridiculous claims, please and thank you Ugh


was afk getting pizza, sorry the reply is late: yes. fleet issue phoon can get 1800 dps at the same range give or take as a kronos, im going to assume a cnr can get even more, a vindi with gank fit can even get 3k, so yeah, kronos is probably the weakest marauder atm imo, due to lack of range


i see well those high dps is only under certain condition with really terrible damage application and bare mim tank. but when you are talking about mission fits that an average player use that is more suitable for many different types of mission. a marauder and a navy bs has the same dps generally speaking. Also, typhoon lacks missile speed which means you lose many volley much easily just like the navy scorpion.


im not saying that the kronos does bad dps, infact it does tonnes, but its a blaster boat, its probably the only marauder that will be negatively impacted by the Bastion mod, devs should probably boost it in some way, immobile brawling ship is odd, also im almost certain that ccp will revert to the old bastion model due to the all-round nerfs currently happening
Cade Windstalker
#3024 - 2013-09-07 05:15:11 UTC
Baal Zann wrote:
im not saying that the kronos does bad dps, infact it does tonnes, but its a blaster boat, its probably the only marauder that will be negatively impacted by the Bastion mod, devs should probably boost it in some way, immobile brawling ship is odd, also im almost certain that ccp will revert to the old bastion model due to the all-round nerfs currently happening


Check Ytterbium's old post on the first version of the Kronos. ~60km falloff is pretty good DPS with null and means you can even kill battleships orbiting out at 30+km (which are normally a pain to deal with with blasters).

Range bonuses on Blaster ships tend to be really good for this reason because they help mitigate their biggest disadvantage, short range compared to other weapon systems.

Also for missions and incursions you don't tend to move much anyway because it fowls up your tracking.
Baal Zann
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#3025 - 2013-09-07 05:19:38 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Baal Zann wrote:
im not saying that the kronos does bad dps, infact it does tonnes, but its a blaster boat, its probably the only marauder that will be negatively impacted by the Bastion mod, devs should probably boost it in some way, immobile brawling ship is odd, also im almost certain that ccp will revert to the old bastion model due to the all-round nerfs currently happening


Check Ytterbium's old post on the first version of the Kronos. ~60km falloff is pretty good DPS with null and means you can even kill battleships orbiting out at 30+km (which are normally a pain to deal with with blasters).

Range bonuses on Blaster ships tend to be really good for this reason because they help mitigate their biggest disadvantage, short range compared to other weapon systems.

Also for missions and incursions you don't tend to move much anyway because it fowls up your tracking.

i guess i can agree with that, neutron dps at 60 kilometres is quite nasty
Gimme more Cynos
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#3026 - 2013-09-07 06:40:57 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Baal Zann wrote:
Mer88 wrote:
Warlord Cybrid wrote:
As it stands right now i get almost double the amount of DPS with my skills vs being in a marauder. I have the skills to pilot all the mara's for every race and while ive tried them all their DPS is horrid even compared to the new rebalance work done on the navy ships.




How did you manage to get almost double the dps in a navy BS vs in a marauder?



easily, marauders bar the golem do not put out massive dps, they just apply it easier, and track smaller targets

EDIT: forgot the kronos, and both can be out dps'd by a navy ship


*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal
2k dps on navys is dreamin.
Lair Osen
#3027 - 2013-09-07 07:07:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Lair Osen
Vindi

4x Cormaks Mag Stabs
3x W-634 Drone damage amps

8x Cormacks Neutron Blasters (Dread Gurista Antimatter)

Hybrid Burst Aerator T2 rig

5x Ogre II

Surgical Strike SS-906
LHT LH-1006

2691 dps

Now the devs can get out the nerf bat (or the nerf powerline pole)
dertvader
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3028 - 2013-09-07 07:08:36 UTC
so these ships are going to be slower than carriers I think I want guns on my freighter
Spc One
The Chodak
Void Alliance
#3029 - 2013-09-07 07:09:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Spc One
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Time for another update.

We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:


  • Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.

  • We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.

  • Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.


I will change the OP to match the changes.

This is little better change, still removing taking bonus makes this ship useless for solo pve missions.
So i guess i'll be selling my marauders, because other ships are just so much better, even t-1 battleship has better active tank now.
For example hyperion has better active tank then paladin or kronos, not to mention sensor strength.


CCP Ytterbium wrote:
We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with Bastion.

I suggest you make it this way, if bastion module is active, player can not use webifiers and or painters.
This will not make webs overpowered.
So marauder can only use webs and paints while out of bastion mode eg. Normal mode.
This would be perfect, because it will not be overpowered.

So keep webing bonus to 10% or 7.5% but don't remove active tanking bonus because this is not good for pve solo missions and i know alot of people using paladin for pve missions.
So my suggestion is:

While in bastion mode:
1. Remove ability to use webs and painters
2. Remove 7.5% bonus to active repairs while in bastion mode.


3. Keep old bonuses for normal mode operation
Baal Zann
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#3030 - 2013-09-07 07:29:36 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Gimme more Cynos wrote:
Baal Zann wrote:
Mer88 wrote:
Warlord Cybrid wrote:
As it stands right now i get almost double the amount of DPS with my skills vs being in a marauder. I have the skills to pilot all the mara's for every race and while ive tried them all their DPS is horrid even compared to the new rebalance work done on the navy ships.




How did you manage to get almost double the dps in a navy BS vs in a marauder?



easily, marauders bar the golem do not put out massive dps, they just apply it easier, and track smaller targets

EDIT: forgot the kronos, and both can be out dps'd by a navy ship


*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal
2k dps on navys is dreamin.

somebodys never seen a torp CNR Roll
Periapsis Retrograde Burn
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#3031 - 2013-09-07 07:42:59 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Baal Zann wrote:
Gimme more Cynos wrote:
Baal Zann wrote:
Mer88 wrote:
Warlord Cybrid wrote:
As it stands right now i get almost double the amount of DPS with my skills vs being in a marauder. I have the skills to pilot all the mara's for every race and while ive tried them all their DPS is horrid even compared to the new rebalance work done on the navy ships.




How did you manage to get almost double the dps in a navy BS vs in a marauder?



easily, marauders bar the golem do not put out massive dps, they just apply it easier, and track smaller targets

EDIT: forgot the kronos, and both can be out dps'd by a navy ship


*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal
2k dps on navys is dreamin.

somebodys never seen a torp CNR Roll


[Raven Navy Issue, New Setup 1]
Estamel's Modified Ballistic Control System
Estamel's Modified Ballistic Control System
Estamel's Modified Ballistic Control System
Estamel's Modified Ballistic Control System
Unit W-634's Modified Drone Damage Amplifier

[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]

Estamel's Modified Torpedo Launcher, Dread Guristas Nova Torpedo
Estamel's Modified Torpedo Launcher, Dread Guristas Nova Torpedo
Estamel's Modified Torpedo Launcher, Dread Guristas Nova Torpedo
Estamel's Modified Torpedo Launcher, Dread Guristas Nova Torpedo
Estamel's Modified Torpedo Launcher, Dread Guristas Nova Torpedo
Estamel's Modified Torpedo Launcher, Dread Guristas Nova Torpedo
Estamel's Modified Torpedo Launcher, Dread Guristas Nova Torpedo
Estamel's Modified Torpedo Launcher, Dread Guristas Nova Torpedo

Large Bay Loading Accelerator II
[empty rig slot]
[empty rig slot]

Ogre II x3

+6% Torpedo and RoF Imps

= 1933 DPS

and you won't be able to fit any sort of tank on this abomination.

How about facts?
Cade Windstalker
#3032 - 2013-09-07 07:43:16 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
dertvader wrote:
so these ships are going to be slower than carriers I think I want guns on my freighter


Vargur: 100 m/s
Paladin: 85 m/s

Nidhoggur: 90 m/s (and this is the carrier no one uses)
Archon: 70 m/s

No. Not slower than carriers for their race.

Also for reference the Nightmare and Rattlesnake both currently have a base-speed of 94 m/s and the Abaddon has a base speed of 89 m/s

[quote=Baal Zann]somebodys never seen a torp CNR Roll
Torp CNR with All 5s, Scourge Rage Torpedoes, 4 T2 Ballistic Control Systems, and 3 Ogre 2 drones is 1372 DPS.

Have you ever actually looked at the numbers on these things?

The CNR is a great missioning ship, but largely due to its good damage application and projection, not because it's the highest raw DPS option available. For ideal close-range DPS most of the other factions have missiles beat, just not at those ranges because missiles don't have to worry about falloff.
Spc One
The Chodak
Void Alliance
#3033 - 2013-09-07 07:54:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Spc One
Warlord Cybrid wrote:
As it stands right now i get almost double the amount of DPS with my skills vs being in a marauder.

You're doing exactly the same dps in marauder as in t-1 battleship.
Paladin: 4 turrets *100% = 8 turrets + 25% = 10 turrets
Abaddon: 8 turrets + 25% = 10 turrets

Kronos: 4 turrets *100% = 8 turrets + 25% = 10 turrets
Hyperion: 8 turrets + 25% = 10 turrets

Caldari navy raven: 8 launchers
Golem: 4 * 100% = 8 launchers

Vargur: 4 * 100% = 8 + 25%rof = 10.664
Maelstrom: 8 + 25%rof = 10.664

You see you do the same damage as t-1 battleship.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#3034 - 2013-09-07 08:05:53 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Nidhoggur: 90 m/s (and this is the carrier no one uses)

*cries on the inside
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#3035 - 2013-09-07 08:17:53 UTC
Spc One wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Time for another update.

We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:


  • Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.

  • We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.

  • Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.


I will change the OP to match the changes.

This is little better change, still removing taking bonus makes this ship useless for solo pve missions.
So i guess i'll be selling my marauders, because other ships are just so much better, even t-1 battleship has better active tank now.
For example hyperion has better active tank then paladin or kronos, not to mention sensor strength.


CCP Ytterbium wrote:
We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with Bastion.

I suggest you make it this way, if bastion module is active, player can not use webifiers and or painters.
This will not make webs overpowered.
So marauder can only use webs and paints while out of bastion mode eg. Normal mode.
This would be perfect, because it will not be overpowered.

So keep webing bonus to 10% or 7.5% but don't remove active tanking bonus because this is not good for pve solo missions and i know alot of people using paladin for pve missions.
So my suggestion is:

While in bastion mode:
1. Remove ability to use webs and painters
2. Remove 7.5% bonus to active repairs while in bastion mode.


3. Keep old bonuses for normal mode operation


Please, turn on your common sense before posting.

When your enemies are at close range and you can web, the thing you really really need is more tank. Shutting down tank for webbers is absurd.

And no matter how you spin it, a close range module is the definiton of uselesness in a long range ship. If they're close enough to web, it's time to MJD away or pull a hell of a fight with additional effective DPS. Specially because you've only got 5 light drones and the new AI loves to pop them.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#3036 - 2013-09-07 08:28:07 UTC
Alternatively, you MJD right into middle of the rat blob, bastion and kill them with close range guns with extended range and bonused web, resulting in faster completion than shooting them from range.

.
Darrien
Ouroboros Logistics
#3037 - 2013-09-07 08:34:20 UTC
At first I thought the loss to active tanking would be bad, but then I ran some tests on a kronos and assuming that Marauders get HAC quality resists, omni tanking only takes a small hit (15-20dps) and generally tanking abillity is actually increased, the only real issue being taking pure damage on your weakest resists, ( which of course your should allow for in your tank anyway )
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#3038 - 2013-09-07 08:45:35 UTC
Roime wrote:
Alternatively, you MJD right into middle of the rat blob, bastion and kill them with close range guns with extended range and bonused web, resulting in faster completion than shooting them from range.



You jump into a blob, turn on your tank... oh, wait: you brought webbers instead of a tank. Roll

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you
Gimme more Cynos
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#3039 - 2013-09-07 08:45:35 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Baal Zann wrote:
Gimme more Cynos wrote:
Baal Zann wrote:
Mer88 wrote:
[quote=Warlord Cybrid]As it stands right now i get almost double the amount of DPS with my skills vs being in a marauder. I have the skills to pilot all the mara's for every race and while ive tried them all their DPS is horrid even compared to the new rebalance work done on the navy ships.




How did you manage to get almost double the dps in a navy BS vs in a marauder?



easily, marauders bar the golem do not put out massive dps, they just apply it easier, and track smaller targets

EDIT: forgot the kronos, and both can be out dps'd by a navy ship


*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal
2k dps on navys is dreamin.

somebodys never seen a torp CNR Roll

Look, somebody never fitted a Torp CNR outside of EFT.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#3040 - 2013-09-07 08:57:48 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Roime wrote:
Alternatively, you MJD right into middle of the rat blob, bastion and kill them with close range guns with extended range and bonused web, resulting in faster completion than shooting them from range.



You jump into a blob, turn on your tank... oh, wait: you brought webbers instead of a tank. Roll


Yep, armor tankers have the midslot advantage, but the upgraded resists and bastion bonus to reps means that you can tank rats with less slots.

.