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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Cade Windstalker
#3001 - 2013-09-07 01:54:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Cade Windstalker
Alticus C Bear wrote:
Obviously depending on the direction you jump 110km gives a very narrow window and given the limited mid-slots on the Paladin an Kronos a sensor booster or even a signal amp seems a waste of a slot when it could be factored into the balance if the bastion module.


Then don't jump in a direction that puts you that far away from targets.

Ships aren't supposed to be complete in and of themselves and 90km base sensor range is the longest of any sub-cap in the game, even sniper hulls like the Rokh and Maelstrom. (90km and 75km respectively)

The two hulls you mention are both armor tanked therefor they have four utility mids to play with for targeting range and other uses. Excluding sniping in Incursions and *very* long range rat spawns (which tend to be between 100 and 120km away, allowing you to aggro the pocket) there is no point where a base targeting range longer than 110km is needed in PvE.
Warlord Cybrid
No Fuhks Given
#3002 - 2013-09-07 02:15:47 UTC
As it stands right now i get almost double the amount of DPS with my skills vs being in a marauder. I have the skills to pilot all the mara's for every race and while ive tried them all their DPS is horrid even compared to the new rebalance work done on the navy ships.

The navy ships are getting almost 2x as much dps and for a faction of the price. Why would i race in a BMW when i can cruise in a jet plane?

If your going to look into them you need to look into the over-all role of the Mara's themselves... are they a PVE/salvager ship? Are they a PVP ship? What exactly ARE THEY?

Once you have that answer rework them to that. -Seems like you guys have no clue what direction you want to go with them except... "oh, lets randomly shoot in the dark and hope we score a hit!"

Honestly i can say ever since the noctis was introduced the role of a marauder is next to useless. Crappy tank, crappy stats, crappy fittings, horrid sensor str. I rather take the 2mins to dock and reship than anything else.

PVP wise... no one but a huge cow that needs isk milking will fly one.


If you want to improve it:

Come up with something TOTALLY FRESH / UNIQUE / AWESOME and worthy of being put into EVE. Giving us a bootleg sub-cap-cap just seems like you guys are really dropping your game and not trying to come up with creative things.

I would imagine this would throw a wrench to the whole thing but this would be interesting to see:

Have marauders play more with the thermodynamics skill i think you guys have such a wonderful door open with thermo dynamics and yet you don't do anything with it.

Maybe apply "secondary effects" when u overload weapons on marauders. (Secondary effects such ass: crazy missile effects / volleys / maybe continuous laser effects / supression fire projectiles etc.... GET CREATIVE YOU GUYS HAVE BEEN KNOWN FOR INVENTING CRAZY **** NOT REWASHING CRAP. -DO WORK! DONT MAKE THIS GAME INTO ALL THE OTHER CRAP OUT THERE.)

Possibly give them reduction on heat or maybe even PASSIVE heat regen/repair to make it even more used in different situations.
Baal Zann
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#3003 - 2013-09-07 02:22:15 UTC
Right: this new iteration is garbage, the old one was far better, i >currently< use the vargur in pvp, adding webs to it is indeed usefull if ships come close, it is also pointless because of the range of the ship, the vargur plays out in pvp like a versatile assault ship, able to tackle any assault role fairly well, but is also slow and currently has ewar issues and due to that ends up getting picked apart solo, with the old boosts they were boosting the way i play, and have scene played, vargurs in general, cant say for other marauders because i don't fly them mind you, the tank nerf is exceptionally disapointing, as in pvp, the vargur always gets primary, its just shiny like that, and without rr or nice local tank to back you up you just fall apart, now if its the bastions tank that's annoying incursion runners just have the module not run in incursion systems, i could not care less about incursions, and i will not be using a vargur for pve
Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#3004 - 2013-09-07 02:39:27 UTC
Warlord Cybrid wrote:
As it stands right now i get almost double the amount of DPS with my skills vs being in a marauder. I have the skills to pilot all the mara's for every race and while ive tried them all their DPS is horrid even compared to the new rebalance work done on the navy ships.




How did you manage to get almost double the dps in a navy BS vs in a marauder?
Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#3005 - 2013-09-07 02:42:36 UTC
Baal Zann wrote:
Right: this new iteration is garbage, the old one was far better, i >currently< use the vargur in pvp, adding webs to it is indeed usefull if ships come close, it is also pointless because of the range of the ship, the vargur plays out in pvp like a versatile assault ship, able to tackle any assault role fairly well, but is also slow and currently has ewar issues and due to that ends up getting picked apart solo, with the old boosts they were boosting the way i play, and have scene played, vargurs in general, cant say for other marauders because i don't fly them mind you, the tank nerf is exceptionally disapointing, as in pvp, the vargur always gets primary, its just shiny like that, and without rr or nice local tank to back you up you just fall apart, now if its the bastions tank that's annoying incursion runners just have the module not run in incursion systems, i could not care less about incursions, and i will not be using a vargur for pve


so you want the dev to custom make a marauder just for your pvp needs and screw the pve players. ya i am sure the dev would really take your point seriously.
Baal Zann
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#3006 - 2013-09-07 02:43:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Baal Zann
Mer88 wrote:
Warlord Cybrid wrote:
As it stands right now i get almost double the amount of DPS with my skills vs being in a marauder. I have the skills to pilot all the mara's for every race and while ive tried them all their DPS is horrid even compared to the new rebalance work done on the navy ships.




How did you manage to get almost double the dps in a navy BS vs in a marauder?



easily, marauders bar the golem do not put out massive dps, they just apply it easier, and track smaller targets

EDIT: forgot the kronos, and both can be out dps'd by a navy ship
Baal Zann
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#3007 - 2013-09-07 02:47:05 UTC
Mer88 wrote:
Baal Zann wrote:
Right: this new iteration is garbage, the old one was far better, i >currently< use the vargur in pvp, adding webs to it is indeed usefull if ships come close, it is also pointless because of the range of the ship, the vargur plays out in pvp like a versatile assault ship, able to tackle any assault role fairly well, but is also slow and currently has ewar issues and due to that ends up getting picked apart solo, with the old boosts they were boosting the way i play, and have scene played, vargurs in general, cant say for other marauders because i don't fly them mind you, the tank nerf is exceptionally disapointing, as in pvp, the vargur always gets primary, its just shiny like that, and without rr or nice local tank to back you up you just fall apart, now if its the bastions tank that's annoying incursion runners just have the module not run in incursion systems, i could not care less about incursions, and i will not be using a vargur for pve


so you want the dev to custom make a marauder just for your pvp needs and screw the pve players. ya i am sure the dev would really take your point seriously.


not quite, the pve players have it fine, the old iteration barely touched the old marauder setups bar some buffs here and there, now its being ripped apart, also again not quite, ccp likes to cater to what a ship becomes, this is the role that has seemingly evolved for the vargur
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3008 - 2013-09-07 03:02:32 UTC
Baal Zann wrote:
Mer88 wrote:
Warlord Cybrid wrote:
As it stands right now i get almost double the amount of DPS with my skills vs being in a marauder. I have the skills to pilot all the mara's for every race and while ive tried them all their DPS is horrid even compared to the new rebalance work done on the navy ships.




How did you manage to get almost double the dps in a navy BS vs in a marauder?



easily, marauders bar the golem do not put out massive dps, they just apply it easier, and track smaller targets

EDIT: forgot the kronos, and both can be out dps'd by a navy ship

Paladin beats the NApoc and NGeddon in effective turrets., though the latter 2 have 1 more low.
Vargur falls well behind the damage potentials of the NTempest and NPhoon admittedly with their capacity for fitting mixed weapons and more lows for damage mods in shield tank setups
Kronos has more effective turrets than a NMega but with 1 less lowslot.

The leads are not near enough in most cases to double DPS unless you failfit the marauders.
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#3009 - 2013-09-07 03:04:55 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Time for another update.

We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:


  • Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.

  • We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.

  • Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.


I will change the OP to match the changes.


What, you're not knocking out the tractor bonus? What possible use is that when we have the glorious Noctis in which to salvage the field?
Baal Zann
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#3010 - 2013-09-07 03:07:00 UTC
Catherine Laartii wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Time for another update.

We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:


  • Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.

  • We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.

  • Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.


I will change the OP to match the changes.


What, you're not knocking out the tractor bonus? What possible use is that when we have the glorious Noctis in which to salvage the field?


salvaging pvp wrecks? javascript:insertsmiley('Pirate','/Images/Emoticons/ccp_pirate.png')
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#3011 - 2013-09-07 03:10:48 UTC
I am also hoping that they swap the Paladin's cap amount bonus for tracking. It's already getting a giant increase in base cap and regen, so while cap-stable large reps on a boat without really trying is nice, I think the tracking would be very nice, as it would give excellent viability with beam lasers, specifically Tachyons. The Apoc in general has become very strong in pvp and pve with said tracking bonus, and I see no reason why it shouldn't carry over into its T2 version.
Patrice Macmahon
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#3012 - 2013-09-07 03:12:32 UTC
To help make it easier to find discussions on the possible function of a Bastion Module I created a spin off thread here: Bastion Module Workshop Thread

This is NOT an endorsement of the current Murader Re-balance proposal. It's a place to discuss what we could do with this really cool battleship siege module concept.

I know I've been one of the stronger voices against changing muraders from it's current iteration - but this siege module idea really does have some cool potentials. especially if we think outside the box.


^.^

So please, swing on by and contribute! ^.^

 "Much of this is crystallised in our philosophy, or as others call it "the Intaki Faith". We simply call it Ida - the literal translation is "to consider", and is a good description of the Intaki." 
Cade Windstalker
#3013 - 2013-09-07 03:31:17 UTC
Baal Zann wrote:
Mer88 wrote:
How did you manage to get almost double the dps in a navy BS vs in a marauder?



easily, marauders bar the golem do not put out massive dps, they just apply it easier, and track smaller targets

EDIT: forgot the kronos, and both can be out dps'd by a navy ship


Which actually does very comparable DPS to the current Kronos on TQ. I'm staring at 1442 on the Kronos with all 5s vs 1486 on the Navy Mega.

Saying that they do "almost twice" is an extreme exageration. In reality three of the four have damage bonuses and the forth, the Golem, ends up dead-even for DPS with the Navy Raven at 8 effective turrets and 75mbits of bandwidth each.

Please check numbers before posting ridiculous claims, please and thank you Ugh
luredivino
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#3014 - 2013-09-07 03:36:48 UTC
I have an idea. Why don't you give it a 25% damage increase in bastion mode. In exchange you give it a 37.5% nerf to tracking (plus a similar missile debuff). This would cancel out the tracking bonus the kronos and vargur get at level V, and make the two modes completely different. If you don't train marauders to level V, you will have a serious problem tracking frigates. You could also make it 20% and 30% respectively, but having the larger values would require a large skill investment to properly fly the ship.
Merciful Deletion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#3015 - 2013-09-07 03:49:05 UTC
To bad you can't use the tractor beams offensively like a grappling hook or something ,the bonuses seem more fitting for a Battleship sized Interdictor than Mini Dreadnaught.
Cerulean Ice
Royal Amarr Reclamation
#3016 - 2013-09-07 03:56:37 UTC
Cade Windstalker
#3017 - 2013-09-07 03:57:14 UTC
luredivino wrote:
I have an idea. Why don't you give it a 25% damage increase in bastion mode. In exchange you give it a 37.5% nerf to tracking (plus a similar missile debuff). This would cancel out the tracking bonus the kronos and vargur get at level V, and make the two modes completely different. If you don't train marauders to level V, you will have a serious problem tracking frigates. You could also make it 20% and 30% respectively, but having the larger values would require a large skill investment to properly fly the ship.


A few problems:

One, this does nothing for missions or any other form of solo PvE.

Two, this turns Marauders into "Dread-blap Junior" where a few support ships can completely negate the penalties.

Three, this introduces DPS power-creep with the pirate-battleships.

These are supposed to be lower DPS higher application, not the other way around. If you want raw DPS go for a Pirate Battleship.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3018 - 2013-09-07 03:59:26 UTC
luredivino wrote:
I have an idea. Why don't you give it a 25% damage increase in bastion mode. In exchange you give it a 37.5% nerf to tracking (plus a similar missile debuff). This would cancel out the tracking bonus the kronos and vargur get at level V, and make the two modes completely different. If you don't train marauders to level V, you will have a serious problem tracking frigates. You could also make it 20% and 30% respectively, but having the larger values would require a large skill investment to properly fly the ship.

A 37.5% nerf to tracking would more than cancel out the Kronos' and Vargur's bonus if eve math works for those like it does for ROF increases. It provides an even greater penalty to the paladin and TP stacking on the Golem. All in all it means that likely either people won't use it except at long ranges where the issue of tracking is largely negated or not at all since up close the ability to do damage is nerfed, coincidentally the only time the tank bonus is useful.

While it does create distinction, I'm not sure attaching such a strong disincentive will lead people into the ship.
Baal Zann
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#3019 - 2013-09-07 04:16:10 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Baal Zann wrote:
Mer88 wrote:
How did you manage to get almost double the dps in a navy BS vs in a marauder?



easily, marauders bar the golem do not put out massive dps, they just apply it easier, and track smaller targets

EDIT: forgot the kronos, and both can be out dps'd by a navy ship


Which actually does very comparable DPS to the current Kronos on TQ. I'm staring at 1442 on the Kronos with all 5s vs 1486 on the Navy Mega.

Saying that they do "almost twice" is an extreme exageration. In reality three of the four have damage bonuses and the forth, the Golem, ends up dead-even for DPS with the Navy Raven at 8 effective turrets and 75mbits of bandwidth each.

Please check numbers before posting ridiculous claims, please and thank you Ugh


was afk getting pizza, sorry the reply is late: yes. fleet issue phoon can get 1800 dps at the same range give or take as a kronos, im going to assume a cnr can get even more, a vindi with gank fit can even get 3k, so yeah, kronos is probably the weakest marauder atm imo, due to lack of range
Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#3020 - 2013-09-07 04:31:45 UTC
Baal Zann wrote:
Mer88 wrote:
Warlord Cybrid wrote:
As it stands right now i get almost double the amount of DPS with my skills vs being in a marauder. I have the skills to pilot all the mara's for every race and while ive tried them all their DPS is horrid even compared to the new rebalance work done on the navy ships.




How did you manage to get almost double the dps in a navy BS vs in a marauder?



easily, marauders bar the golem do not put out massive dps, they just apply it easier, and track smaller targets

EDIT: forgot the kronos, and both can be out dps'd by a navy ship