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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#2621 - 2013-09-05 17:58:28 UTC
Xaen wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Time for another update.
  • Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.
    • [/list]


    Awwww :(

    That would have been the ultimate blueball maneuver. I was so looking forward to doing it.


    ^^this^^

    internet spaceships

    are serious business sir.

    and don't forget it
    Alphea Abbra
    Project Promethion
    #2622 - 2013-09-05 18:00:53 UTC
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    Time for another update.

    We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:


    • Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.

    • We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.

    • Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.


    I will change the OP to match the changes.
    With these proposed changes, I suggest selling all Marauders.

    If you want to listen to players, please don't listen to trolls. These changes aren't just shoddy, they make the ships unable to perform what they currently do.
    The marauders need their tanking abilities for PvE as it stands, and if they only have that in Bastion then ... well, let's just say I don't think a lot of Bastion modules would be fitted.
    Especially not when activating said module is a death sentence in PvP (Now more than before) and a sitting duck in PvE.

    I'd like to make it clear that the proposed changes are making the ship unviable for the price you're paying, both in terms of survivability, cost and training.
    I don't care about webbing inside 10km in PvE (The Marauders can have light drones, y'know), and in PvP you'l be better off with a 5m ship webbinghostiles than a 1b ship.

    Please, DON'T make these specific changes. If you're listening, don't listen to trolls.
    MeBiatch
    GRR GOONS
    #2623 - 2013-09-05 18:01:32 UTC
    Dave Stark wrote:
    MeBiatch wrote:
    Kasuko Merin wrote:
    Sssooo they have all kinds of bonuses to make them work better at range and be better at getting to that range...

    ...and a web bonus that can only be applied if you're at short range. Dafuq is with the scattershot bonuses?



    certain people who play incursions used tier many alts to ***** about the loss of the web bonus because they do not want vindicators....


    well, when a vindicator has more damage, better webs, and an extra mid slot over a kronos... where's the incentive to use a marauder?


    tractor beams duh... lol...

    no but seriously i was more happy with version 2.0... 3.0 is really meh to me...

    There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

    Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
    MeBiatch
    GRR GOONS
    #2624 - 2013-09-05 18:03:32 UTC
    honestly if you want to keep tech II resist profile i guess that is ok... just give me a 30% increase to null resistance and i will be fine. i was really banking on those resists to get me threw LAAR reload time.

    also change the web bonus to a range bonus and build it into the bastion mod and give me 5% to active tank if you feel 7.5% would be op.

    There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

    Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
    Cipher Jones
    The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
    #2625 - 2013-09-05 18:04:52 UTC
    Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

    A few thoughts:

    T2 Resists combined with a 30% resist bonus from a bastion is too much.

    A Vargur: DCU, 3x Shield Hardeners, 2x Resist Rigs, Links, has 3 extra mids and 85-90% resists across the board.
    A Golem, DCU, 3x Shield Hardenrs, 1 Resist Rig, Links, has 4 extra mids and 80-90% resists across the board.
    A Kronos, DCU, 3x Hardeners, 2x Resist Rigs, Links, has 3 extra lows and 80-90% resists across the board.
    A Paladin, DCU, 3x Hardeners, 1x Resist Rig, Links, has 4 extra lows and 80-90% resists across the board.

    And these are before any 30% bastion resist bonus.

    Combine this with EWAR Immunity, 82.5% webs, and runnaway MJD's, and these are very hard to hold and tank small fleets.
    Combine with the MJD-Cloak trick (== Fool proof, bubble proof, MWD-Cloak Trick), and you have a mobile Nullsec plex beast.

    In truth, the bastion mode is about damage projection, if I'm understanding your intentions. I fully support the removal of the 30% resist bonus, but perhaps it should be replaced with a 50-100% boost to the range of Skirmish mods (scrams, pts, and webs). This fits with it's damage projection.

    At the end of the day though, the biggest issue these behemoths will have is cap pressure. Without increased cap generation (like triage carriers get), these simply won't have the ability to operate for terribly long. They essentially run their tank off cap boosters, which will run out!


    With a full 100% boost to reps this shouldn't be an issue.

    internet spaceships

    are serious business sir.

    and don't forget it
    Sarmatiko
    #2626 - 2013-09-05 18:14:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Sarmatiko
    TheFace Asano wrote:

    The web bonus is not a bad thing, it just doesn't make any sense with the bastion module on as the main damage projection bonus is not a factor within web range. The original proposal made sense. Yitterbium stated you could hit out to 50-60km with null. Unless the frig has transversal your going to blap him at that range. The web bonus would make more sense if you could use it out to 50km+ where all these ships can hit even with their respective short range systems. The proposal (outside of the tractor beam bonus) had great fusion and weaknesses to balance the strengths.

    ^this

    CCP Ytterbium, switch 100% Tractor beam role bonus to 300% Web range, and it's a deal P
    Snoodaard Thrasy
    Yulai Guard
    #2627 - 2013-09-05 18:17:30 UTC
    Remove the repping bonus in favor of the web? Sad

    Time to sell my PVE Paladin!

    Iome Ambraelle
    Center for Advanced Studies
    Gallente Federation
    #2628 - 2013-09-05 18:24:07 UTC
    Although some hulls receive a tanking bonus based on the racial resist profile, the Paladin is losing out with these changes. I have a hard time coming up with a brawling scenario that the new Paladin would be better in than the TQ version as far as PVE goes. The only way to achieve the same levels of tanking with the new version is to enter bastion mode. So against sansha/BR rats it looks like:

    old: 137.5% reps
    new: 200% reps (no help from T2 resists)

    Both ships can fit the exact same tanking modules. However, when in bastion mode you are immobile. So you will very quickly, as the NPCs come into optimal range, start to receive MAXIMUM damage. Where as with the old version, you remain mobile and can adjust your traversal and range while under AB/MWD for a significant reduction of incoming damage. So really it looks like:

    old: 137.5% reps versus 30-50% possible NPC damage
    new: 200% reps versus 80-100% possible NPC damage

    Basically this causes a problem where if you relied on the extra 37.5% repair amount to either keep up with incoming damage or to allow you to pulse your reps to maintain some cap stability you will be unable to do either of those things even while in bastion.

    There is also the issue that besides the rep bonus, bastion mode no longer really provides anything to support the brawling playstyle. The range bonus isn't really necessary. The web bonus is on the hull. There's EWAR immunity but the big ones affecting brawler's being web/scram you are basically applying to yourself anyways while in bastion mode.

    Can someone better at this than I am provide a reasonable scenario where the new Paladin would be better than the TQ one if brawling fit?

    Shield Tanking - Why armor tanking can't have nice things.
    Flyinghotpocket
    Small Focused Memes
    Ragequit Cancel Sub
    #2629 - 2013-09-05 18:24:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Flyinghotpocket
    zbaaca wrote:
    i have a good question. please explain me WHY CNR have 8/7/5 and golem 8/7/4



    THIS
    and also this TFI 8/5/7 Vargur 8/6/5
    and this ANI 8/4/8 Paladin 8/4/7
    and this MNI 8/4/8 Kronos 8/4/7


    looks like all advanced battleships have 1 low slot less, except winmatar ofc

    Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro
    Wolfgang Achari
    Morior Invictus.
    #2630 - 2013-09-05 18:30:01 UTC
    Dave Stark wrote:
    MeBiatch wrote:
    Kasuko Merin wrote:
    Sssooo they have all kinds of bonuses to make them work better at range and be better at getting to that range...

    ...and a web bonus that can only be applied if you're at short range. Dafuq is with the scattershot bonuses?



    certain people who play incursions used tier many alts to ***** about the loss of the web bonus because they do not want vindicators....


    well, when a vindicator has more damage, better webs, and an extra mid slot over a kronos... where's the incentive to use a marauder?


    Better applied damage due to the increased optimal+falloff, better tanking because of t2 resists (and rep bonus in Sebastian mode), better mobility because of MJD role bonus, available utility high-slots, and better cap come to mind.

    I do have to agree though, the current proposed changes are kind of coming from left field. Likewise it homogenizes all the marauders to be the same ship with different weapon systems/slot layouts.
    Lloyd Roses
    Artificial Memories
    #2631 - 2013-09-05 18:32:24 UTC
    Gizznitt Malikite wrote:


    In truth, the bastion mode is about damage projection, if I'm understanding your intentions. I fully support the removal of the 30% resist bonus, but perhaps it should be replaced with a 50-100% boost to the range of Skirmish mods (scrams, pts, and webs). This fits with it's damage projection.

    I'd rather like them to not do that. For them to not jump, you'd need to be within the 12/15something scramrange you can normally get out of your ship, that already is close to the 14km(19/25) a marauder could use to start stopping you. If you were to significantly increase the webrange, marauders would be very safe in those situations.


    Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

    At the end of the day though, the biggest issue these behemoths will have is cap pressure. Without increased cap generation (like triage carriers get), these simply won't have the ability to operate for terribly long. They essentially run their tank off cap boosters, which will run out!


    They got a big hold and require little ammo, so you could have quite some time. Remember the shield booster /armor repair system is twice as efficient :P
    Trendafil
    Balkan Kings
    Goonswarm Federation
    #2632 - 2013-09-05 18:34:24 UTC
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    To quote this other post.

    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    We haven't decided on anything regarding Marauders yet regarding web bonuses, remember until release this is an open discussion we're having.

    We will still be running internal tests on both proposed versions on the Marauder thread, as well as some other variations - so consider yourself warned if things evolve in the future.


    And by that we mean, Winter release is still quite some time away, we want to take our time to shape those things right, and see them on public testing before coming up with a final decision. Theory crafting is nice, but they also need to be put into practical situations.



    Role bonus: 100% Damage / T2 Resists

    Battleship Bonus: 5% Damage and 10% Range (optimal / falloff / missile speed) per level
    Marauder Bonus: 5% Rate of fire and 7.5% Tracking / Exp velocity

    Bastion Module:
    Increases shield and armor repair amount by 100%
    Extends all large turret falloff and optimal by 25%
    Increases all large missile max velocity by 25% (as originaly posted with all the cooldowns and restrictions)

    +50% Reduction in local rep cap consumption

    PvE Out of Bastion:
    High resists with high dmg projection will be the ship of choice for group content like incursions, WHs and so on.
    PvP Out of Bastion:
    High resists and high dmg projection, utility high slots to spare. Will give the other faction battleships good competition for a spot in the fleet.

    PvE using Bastion:
    Suited for solo or smaller groups. The improved resist profile and the repair boost will compensate for the lack or remote reps and make it a viable choice
    PvP using Bastion:
    Small gang and solo pvp


    This way the ship will be viable choice for both PvP and PvE with or w/o the Bastion. If you want you have fun with friends grab a marauder w/o a Bastion module and have a logi with you. If you are alone, put a bastion and have all the tank you need to overcome the nasty NPCs.


    Sergeant Acht Scultz
    School of Applied Knowledge
    Caldari State
    #2633 - 2013-09-05 18:35:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Sergeant Acht Scultz
    The bastion module is a nice idea, what is a true bad idea is to add resistances to this module when those should be included in the ship hull it self, specially for a T2 hull of such price tag/skill training intensive.

    Does everything in Eve needs to be either easy to train/fluffy fun to use and everything else requiring planning/dedication true trash or penalizing at the point it spends more time log off/dock than playing with?

    Seriously guys, when are you thinking about rewarding long term playing and skill planning? -2025 ?

    removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
    Ranger 1
    Ranger Corp
    Vae. Victis.
    #2634 - 2013-09-05 18:36:28 UTC
    Dave Stark wrote:
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    To quote this other post.

    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    We haven't decided on anything regarding Marauders yet regarding web bonuses, remember until release this is an open discussion we're having.

    We will still be running internal tests on both proposed versions on the Marauder thread, as well as some other variations - so consider yourself warned if things evolve in the future.


    And by that we mean, Winter release is still quite some time away, we want to take our time to shape those things right, and see them on public testing before coming up with a final decision. Theory crafting is nice, but they also need to be put into practical situations.


    is this basically you saying "yeah we haven't got a clue what we want marauders to do, but we've got plenty of time to flip a coin on it"?

    Honestly, I think it's more like "We have theory crafted several different options that would not imbalance game play. We'd like to bounce a few off of you to see which you like best."

    Seriously, would you rather they don't give us a few options to comment on?

    View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
    Gizznitt Malikite
    Agony Unleashed
    Agony Empire
    #2635 - 2013-09-05 18:38:41 UTC
    Flyinghotpocket wrote:
    zbaaca wrote:
    i have a good question. please explain me WHY CNR have 8/7/5 and golem 8/7/4



    THIS


    Because Marauders get 19 slots and 2 rigs.
    Because Normal BS's get 19 slots and 3 rigs.
    Because Navy & Faction BS's have 20 and 3 rigs.

    Drone Bonused ships generally get 1 less slot.
    Ranger 1
    Ranger Corp
    Vae. Victis.
    #2636 - 2013-09-05 18:39:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
    Quote:
    Both ships can fit the exact same tanking modules. However, when in bastion mode you are immobile. So you will very quickly, as the NPCs come into optimal range, start to receive MAXIMUM damage. Where as with the old version, you remain mobile and can adjust your traversal and range while under AB/MWD for a significant reduction of incoming damage. So really it looks like:


    T2 resists.
    100km travel time after MJD and range bonus.

    View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
    Deliram
    Native Freshfood
    Minmatar Republic
    #2637 - 2013-09-05 18:40:01 UTC
    CCP you already made the tiercide.... one little step further?
    Swap the hull of the KRONOS and the hull of the SIN?
    I mean, i love gallente battleships because they have more drones usage than the others on averange, now you're taking all away from the marauder? It's this only me?!
    Why not giving the the bastion module a bonus like added 20-40% to drone dmg, tracking and optimal?
    Or why you don't keep the SIN like it is, and make the kronos a BIT different in his class AGAIN?
    I mean let it use the drones, it's the trademark of the Gallente pve(and sometimes pvp) fleet.
    Bagrat Skalski
    Koinuun Kotei
    #2638 - 2013-09-05 18:40:07 UTC
    Flyinghotpocket wrote:
    zbaaca wrote:
    i have a good question. please explain me WHY CNR have 8/7/5 and golem 8/7/4



    THIS

    and also this TFI 8/5/7 Vargur 8/6/5 TFI
    and this ANI 8/4/8 Paladin 8/4/7
    and this MNI 8/4/8 Kronos 8/4/7


    looks like all advanced battleships have 1 low slot less, except winmatar ofc


    I would like Golem with 8/8/4
    Paladin 8/4/8
    Kronos 8/4/8
    Vargur 8/6/6

    Custom ship skins, character creator style "repaint". Bring it!
    Ralph King-Griffin
    New Eden Tech Support
    #2639 - 2013-09-05 18:41:20 UTC
    Ranger 1 wrote:
    Dave Stark wrote:
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    To quote this other post.

    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    We haven't decided on anything regarding Marauders yet regarding web bonuses, remember until release this is an open discussion we're having.

    We will still be running internal tests on both proposed versions on the Marauder thread, as well as some other variations - so consider yourself warned if things evolve in the future.


    And by that we mean, Winter release is still quite some time away, we want to take our time to shape those things right, and see them on public testing before coming up with a final decision. Theory crafting is nice, but they also need to be put into practical situations.


    is this basically you saying "yeah we haven't got a clue what we want marauders to do, but we've got plenty of time to flip a coin on it"?

    Honestly, I think it's more like "We have theory crafted several different options that would not imbalance game play. We'd like to bounce a few off of you to see which you like best."

    Seriously, would you rather they don't give us a few options to comment on?


    While its nice that they have, there is a bit of this going on https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWuHLvlPqaw&feature=youtube_gdata_player
    I'd have liked to see a test run of it b4 the feedback started

    Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

    =]|[=
    CanI haveyourstuff
    Native Freshfood
    Minmatar Republic
    #2640 - 2013-09-05 18:41:20 UTC
    Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
    Flyinghotpocket wrote:
    zbaaca wrote:
    i have a good question. please explain me WHY CNR have 8/7/5 and golem 8/7/4



    THIS


    Because Marauders get 19 slots and 2 rigs.
    Because Normal BS's get 19 slots and 3 rigs.
    Because Navy & Faction BS's have 20 and 3 rigs.

    Drone Bonused ships generally get 1 less slot.


    I mean.. golem is shitloads of drone bonused, I use it as sentry boat and field 20 sentrys at once!!!
    dafuq