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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#2521 - 2013-09-05 13:28:29 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Xqpvqsvs Qr'atyuqink wrote:
Attention Golem with Target Painter, Web and MJD got 4 med slots for tank. If u put cap booster u will end with only 3 slots for tank (on ship who just lost shield boost bonus). There is no room for two different EW modules on slow shield tanked ship and this ship doesnt need any EW. He need proper bonuses for his missiles and invulnerability to defenders.

You need two painters to be effective, so you're down to a three slot tank. Three slot tanks work currently (4 TPs + 3 slot tank) but you had to be careful. However, with the loss of the shield boost bonus, a cap booster will probably be essential, so you're down to a two slot tank.

/fubar

edit: to be fair, you'll never put a web on a Golem for Level 4s, so we're back to a 3-4 slot tank.


You don't really have to be careful..

Its a level 4... You can do them in drakes...

We aren't exactly talking about challenging content. All of these marauders will roflstomp them like its some sort of joke.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#2522 - 2013-09-05 13:30:19 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Xqpvqsvs Qr'atyuqink wrote:
Attention Golem with Target Painter, Web and MJD got 4 med slots for tank. If u put cap booster u will end with only 3 slots for tank (on ship who just lost shield boost bonus). There is no room for two different EW modules on slow shield tanked ship and this ship doesnt need any EW. He need proper bonuses for his missiles and invulnerability to defenders.

You need two painters to be effective, so you're down to a three slot tank. Three slot tanks work currently (4 TPs + 3 slot tank) but you had to be careful. However, with the loss of the shield boost bonus, a cap booster will probably be essential, so you're down to a two slot tank.

/fubar

edit: to be fair, you'll never put a web on a Golem for Level 4s, so we're back to a 3-4 slot tank.

depending on what kind of resist profile you end up with, a 2slot tank may be perfectly sufficient. and if you actually end up using the bastion module, you're 200% fine anyway. ofc. if they just take the regular T2 resists and slap them onto the marauder hulls, the kronos and golem will profit much more than the other two, with the paladin being a clear loser.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#2523 - 2013-09-05 13:31:36 UTC
What i want is a ship that can be useful in some realistic PVP scenario. The range and MJD bonus and reduced mobility goes AGAINST the web bonus.


THe web bonus can only work if its a mixed range and strenght bonus (10%5%)

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Dark Ways
Kings of Empire
#2524 - 2013-09-05 13:37:11 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Time for another update.

We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:


  • Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.

  • We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.

  • Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.


I will change the OP to match the changes.



I understand the the change from 30% resistance bonus in Bastion Mode to having T2 resists to try to appeal to the PVP/PVE crowd who want the remote reps.

What I DO NOT understand is why you are trying to take away the basis of what these ships have been in the local rep bonus. You are taking a ship and adding new skills and modules to get results close to what the ship already had.

I for one did not need the target painter on my golem I surely don't need a web now.

In your effort to make this ship appealing for use in PVP don't ruin the ship for the PVE crowd who have been using the ship for years.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#2525 - 2013-09-05 13:39:02 UTC
So basically what we have here are battleship with t2 res

What the actual powercreep ****?

In what universe is that a good sensible idea? Seriously? You know why you havn't put in BS's with t2 res before? Because its a ******* awful idea.

So MAD /o\

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#2526 - 2013-09-05 13:39:22 UTC
Barrogh Habalu wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
I'm more worried about the fact that so many people seem to only care about its level four mission performance, and not care about any other forms of PvE. The last round of changes is a vast improvement to its PvE ability in incursions, wormholes, lowsec, and nullsec, and everyone is crying because now it only knocks L4 mission difficulty down to "profoundly autistic" instead of going all the way to "syphilitic ******** monkey" levels of easy.

The problem is, I feel that there's no reason to use this ships in wormholes or incursions because of how good ships that compete with them are in such environement. I'm pretty sure that the same can be said about L5s/null anoms/whatever. That's pretty much why we are mostly hearing mission folks when it comes to PvE.

Okay, you may be right about stuff like Kronos (that can do decent against serpentis due to how their damage and resistance profiles stack), but other stuff (like Paladin) becomes pretty useless.

Edit: Okay, the point above makes sense. Got ninja'd but discussion progression. There are still issues when it comes to effectiveness outside of "gank possibility" scope.


For PvE, they have no competition at all in wormholes. They are vastly superior to everything else by an absurd degree. These ships (well, not the Golem) crap out 1200+ DPS while still tanking the site, have the range bonuses to fully apply that DPS, and now have super-webs so drones must not be risked to kill frigate waves. They also salvage everything, no need to come back with a Noctis. Oh and you can also put a probe launcher on it too so you don't have to worry about getting stuck or having a probing alt.

When people think of C3/C4 solo right now, they think of a 600-700 DPS Tengu. These come in and do double that DPS. 1200 DPS kills a C3 Sleeper battleship in a minute, that's a 15-20m ISK rat killed in a minute.
Crellion
Nano Rhinos
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#2527 - 2013-09-05 13:42:21 UTC
Ummm what can I say now... t2 resists is a good step I guess.

Web bonus... for all ships... not that much. I can see it being very good on the Kronos and perhaps on some Vargur and Pali fits... but again not with the range bonus, or an mjd bonus rly.

SO SOME ALTERNATIVES:

IDEA 1. If you feel you simply *must* keep bastion theme... I would advise either to make it invulnerable to neuting (for high end content) or provide a serious damage upgrade. A serious proposal would be to add a 50% tracking buff which is a serious damage upgrade at the BS level.

IDEA 2. What would be really cool and in sync with the "lets make them good fpr pvp" concept would be 7.5% per level to stasis web factor & range. This would at least make them a lot more appealing for solo / small gang, which should really be their niche anyway.

IDEA 3. As a final idea you could scrap "Bastion" and call it "beserker" mode. Essentially -50% the effectiveness of local and remote reps when activated and providing +50% dps in exchange.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#2528 - 2013-09-05 13:42:39 UTC
Hell ***** wrote:
Agreed, the Paladin looks a lot less shinier now, double the price of a nightmare for a slight range buff?? Hmmm


wtb 500m nightmare.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Mokusui
Lazy Brothers Inc
#2529 - 2013-09-05 13:44:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Mokusui
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Time for another update.

We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:


  • Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.

  • We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.

  • Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.


I will change the OP to match the changes.


I rarely post but this change has driven me to do so. Admittedly, in my current play style, I may not see every variable at play, but I can find no pattern or logic to these changes and they threaten to ruin my favorite class of ship in EVE. I was very excited about the changes with the first iteration but this second iteration has me scratching my head.

I have trained Marauders 5 and fly the Golem and the Vargur almost exclusively in a PvE capacity. My training for the Kronos will be complete in two weeks. Now, with these new changes, I see a very specific role emerging around the so-called "bastion" module. MJD to range, use the existing range-befitting bonuses of the marauder class to lay waste to your enemies, then continue on your way. It is a ship that has always appeared to be centered around self-sufficiency and efficiency.

The tradeoff of repair/boost amount for T2 resist profiles appears reasonably fair to me and I think I'm even OK with the loss of the non-stacking bastion resist bonuses in light of tthe T2 resists but I must now ask, what the hell is this web bonus about? Honestly, I want an answer besides "It helps people with short-range weapons." Since when do the the marauders have trouble reaching range even with bloody autocannons or torps? You've just designed these ships to operate from range. Did you not just revise the Typhoon to eliminate its chronic "role salad" of bonuses? I thought it was well-understood that ships in EVE need to be focused so that, at any given time, a pilot does not have to give up the benefit of any of a ship's bonuses in any one fit that has been targeted toward a ship's designed role. For example, if I want to fit for bastion mode, I'm not going to fit a web because I'll never use it and I need the mid slots for tank and/or tracking computers, target painters, etc., unless you plan on adding a mid slot to each marauder. In addition, a ship like the Golem now has two bonuses to EWAR: web and target painter. Web bonuses are weak and rarely useful due to their range limitations, essentially killing an entire bonus from the marauder class for me and I'm sure many other pilots.

I can think of only two instances where I might use a web: to kill drones and frigates. In the Vargur, I insta-pop frigates before they can even get within range of me. In the Golem, I use my drones and with my skills, can even often insta-pop those with Precision torps and dual target painters if they aren't moving too quickly. When piloting either ship against NPCs like Spider Drones, I use my own light drones. I have never once wished I had a web nor has the idea even occurred to me.

I think I understand what you're trying to do. There are many forms of PvE besides my own preferred form but you have to face the fact that you cannot, nor has any EVE ship of which I can recall, ever been able to specialize to all of the forms. Please stop trying. The marauders will roll out of your fingers as tangled, myopic messes that will remove marauders completely from many EVE veterans' favor and destroy marauders' headlining power in your winter expansion.

I don't have any exact solutions for you right now but I'm alright with that because you get paid for this. If you are just dead-set on webs, make it a range bonus to webs not web speed factor. You also need to make bastion mode actually worth using by giving a damage bonus, a tank bonus, allowing remote reps, or whatever you feel you need to do.

I look forward to reviewing subsequent revisions of the marauder class.
loles
Perkone
Caldari State
#2530 - 2013-09-05 13:47:19 UTC  |  Edited by: loles
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Time for another update.

We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:


  • Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.

  • We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.

  • Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.


I will change the OP to match the changes.


Ok, so you gave PvPers what they wanted, and removed everything that made them fun in PvE (it no longer feels like bastion). Now just add one more stat: This ship explodes if you hit a NPC, and there you are, pure PvP ship.

EDIT: to complain explaining why:

"Bastion" and "Mini-Dread" + 60 sec without moving makes me think of a "fixed gun/missile battery", or another way to have a sentry domi. Also, inmobile, heavy, unmovable, tanky. Why not make the bastion module increment the EHP (buffer, not more resists). I feel like activating bastion should make me be a brick for 60s, being able to tank gankers.

Instead why now get webs, which as stated before by Ytterbium, is useless in PvE, specially when this ship has been redisigned around using an MJD and shooting from far away. But hey, why not increase drone bay and /or bandwith, no lets give web bonus to PvPers, because hey it's T2 totally niche (NOT), lets make it useful in PvE and PvP and worst than all at both (while also more expensive/skill intensive than better ships, pirate).

Part of the bastion/brick concept was bring the mass, increase the resists, (would be awesome to increase armor/shield/hull by percentage while in bastion).

But now apparently we're fixing marauders around it's dictionary definition. Following that rule, make the orca swim, the fenrir have claws, or something.
John Holt
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2531 - 2013-09-05 13:48:58 UTC
Taking the shield boost bonus away from the Golem will kill its tank.

Done my time in null sec, now I'm just a Privateer wandering around High and Low Sec.
Panhead4411
Rothschild's Sewage and Septic Sucking Services
The Possum Lodge
#2532 - 2013-09-05 13:51:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Panhead4411
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
In regular mode, they work approximately on the same fashion as on TQ, but are capable of using Micro Jump Drive at a faster rate than usual to quickly relocate on the battlefield.



Yet they are losing their rep bonus? I'm failing to see how they 'operate approximately the same' if one now is forced to go into bastion mode to reach the same amount of rep as was previously attainable.

CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Time for another update.

We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:

[list]
  • Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.
    • And yet you are destroying their ability to tank outside the mode...?

    http://blog.beyondreality.se/shift-click-does-nothing    < Unified Inventory is NOT ready...
    Rek Seven
    University of Caille
    Gallente Federation
    #2533 - 2013-09-05 13:54:09 UTC
    You can't please everyone i guess....

    I think the web bonus will be great for PVP fit marauders. It makes sense that a marauder in bastion mode would want to keep a target pinned (webbed) down.

    The wishlist is pretty much complete...
    Hell Bitch
    Imperial Academy
    Amarr Empire
    #2534 - 2013-09-05 13:54:56 UTC
    Daniel Plain wrote:
    Hell ***** wrote:
    Agreed, the Paladin looks a lot less shinier now, double the price of a nightmare for a slight range buff?? Hmmm


    wtb 500m nightmare.


    Last time i checked (weekend) nightmares going for around 850mil, paladins close to 1.5bil.

    Ofc that was in Amarr.
    marVLs
    #2535 - 2013-09-05 13:55:08 UTC
    Xequecal wrote:

    For PvE, they have no competition at all in wormholes. They are vastly superior to everything else by an absurd degree. These ships (well, not the Golem) crap out 1200+ DPS while still tanking the site, have the range bonuses to fully apply that DPS, and now have super-webs so drones must not be risked to kill frigate waves. They also salvage everything, no need to come back with a Noctis. Oh and you can also put a probe launcher on it too so you don't have to worry about getting stuck or having a probing alt.

    When people think of C3/C4 solo right now, they think of a 600-700 DPS Tengu. These come in and do double that DPS. 1200 DPS kills a C3 Sleeper battleship in a minute, that's a 15-20m ISK rat killed in a minute.


    lol where You got 1200DPS on long ranges?


    Maybe on Vargur? hmm nope, 1,1k DPS on 5km in Bastion

    Kronos? nope, on null 1,1k DPS on 20few km in Bastion

    rest wont reach 1,2k DPS without some extreme mods, and still will be around 50-60km in Bastion so meh for not moving
    Daniel Plain
    Doomheim
    #2536 - 2013-09-05 13:58:49 UTC
    Hell ***** wrote:
    Daniel Plain wrote:
    Hell ***** wrote:
    Agreed, the Paladin looks a lot less shinier now, double the price of a nightmare for a slight range buff?? Hmmm


    wtb 500m nightmare.


    Last time i checked (weekend) nightmares going for around 850mil, paladins close to 1.5bil.

    Ofc that was in Amarr.

    i don't even know what to say to that... you have literally stunned me with stupid.

    I should buy an Ishtar.
    Battle Cube
    Cube Collective
    #2537 - 2013-09-05 13:59:13 UTC
    Lucidia fern wrote:
    Going by the view of this forum thread, CCP needs to answer the following questions so we have a chance in hell of understanding these changes


    What role is this ship intended to fill now ?

    What +/- is PVE supposed to expect?

    What +/- is PVP supposed to expect?

    Right now there seems to be a complete lack of direction. The 1st iteration of changes whilst somewhat contested at least made sense / showed direction. This second set seems to be split personality and directionless.

    well, i still say this version is very similar to the first, especially in concept as bastion is still getting huge tank, just not As huge. And regular mode is getting resist boost, which is arguable for some because of how they would set it up for rat specific resists etc.... but i agree in asking what the role is going to be....

    Quote:
    my request to the devs:

    Please with the next iteration (or this one, if you believe it is sufficient) explicitly state what scenarios marauders are supposed to excel in, and why it would be better to use a marauder in that situation rather than say, a pirate ship.

    I think the biggest problem is that people are not sure what place marauders are supposed be, and why their high isk and sp cost is warranted.

    Thanks for the update on new stats and the very informational post on the earlier version showing how it would perform in missions, but the issue is not what it "can" do, or even what it excels in, but rather, what it is (best at) Better at than any other ship. So we dont need exact numbers or exactly How it will function, just assurance that it is supposed to be better at scenario X than other ships, and that it will be balanced accordingly. Many thanks in advance.

    Re-post for ultimate justice!
    Kagura Nikon
    Native Freshfood
    Minmatar Republic
    #2538 - 2013-09-05 14:04:05 UTC
    Garviel Tarrant wrote:
    So basically what we have here are battleship with t2 res

    What the actual powercreep ****?

    In what universe is that a good sensible idea? Seriously? You know why you havn't put in BS's with t2 res before? Because its a ******* awful idea.

    So MAD /o\



    That is what EVERYONE expected when t2 battleships were to be introduced. THe T2 battleships we got were quite a failure at any activity other than PVE, because PVE is not risky and you can pay 10 times the price for a 4% extra efficiency.

    Now thigns are better.. Eve is a PVP GAME, all ships that bear weapons should be PVP ships as much as possible.

    "If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
    Kagura Nikon
    Native Freshfood
    Minmatar Republic
    #2539 - 2013-09-05 14:04:56 UTC
    Rek Seven wrote:
    You can't please everyone i guess....

    I think the web bonus will be great for PVP fit marauders. It makes sense that a marauder in bastion mode would want to keep a target pinned (webbed) down.



    Not effectively. Since the ship is immobile.. NO ONE will enter web range. Every oen will orbit the Battleship at 13001meters

    "If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
    Rek Seven
    University of Caille
    Gallente Federation
    #2540 - 2013-09-05 14:11:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
    Kagura Nikon wrote:
    Rek Seven wrote:
    You can't please everyone i guess....

    I think the web bonus will be great for PVP fit marauders. It makes sense that a marauder in bastion mode would want to keep a target pinned (webbed) down.



    Not effectively. Since the ship is immobile.. NO ONE will enter web range. Every oen will orbit the Battleship at 13001meters


    I completely agree with you, which is why i think it should be a web range bonus instead of effectiveness.

    I just emailed a suggestion to CCP that it should be the bastion mod that gives a bonus to web range and target painter effectiveness. The web effectiveness should be a pirate faction exclusive bonus.

    The wishlist is pretty much complete...