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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
#2441 - 2013-09-05 09:36:53 UTC
Besides Balance Problems where the hell did a Web Bonus and Bastion Module fit into their Name?

Marauder = fast and aggressiv
Bastion (+ Web) = immobil and persistent

You can tweek around like crazy CCP but you Never will find a Good Solution!

(And yes i love Bastion Modulthingie)

Meet the Mario Kart 8 - Capsuleer Club Cup
McBorsk
Multispace Technologies Inc
#2442 - 2013-09-05 09:37:23 UTC  |  Edited by: McBorsk
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Time for another update.

We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:


  • Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.

  • We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.

  • Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.


I will change the OP to match the changes.


I see, we're gettting a nerf now? Thanks, buddy. You had it right and now you're going to ruin it.
David Kir
Hotbirds
#2443 - 2013-09-05 09:38:09 UTC  |  Edited by: David Kir
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Time for another update.

We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:


  • Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.

  • We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.

  • Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.


I will change the OP to match the changes.


And like that, you've lost me.

Friends are like cows: if you eat them, they die.
Crysantos Callahan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#2444 - 2013-09-05 09:41:48 UTC
Jack C Hughes wrote:
Crysantos Callahan wrote:
Jack C Hughes wrote:
saw many people complaining...
I believe these changes do have internal logic with them and pointed directly towards one direction.

First with PVE.
You are better anyway with the new Bastion module so please don't complain about PVE anymore
Even without the new module, the resist shift should helps even with the removal of rep bonus.
Well maybe only for certain ways of PVE.

For PVP
These ship cost alot, like T3, so if you want to use it you have to make sure you lose less frequently.
All the changes seems to provide a way of survive.

You have range for your weapons so you could MJD away from the main battlefield, maybe not for golem, which is critisized lol.
You have MJD to reach to that range, and even more powergrid to fit long range weapons.
You have extreamly high self repping power (may be not after the Bastion module change, but still very high)
And you can actually run your rep with guns for more than 1 min even in a Paladin, beam fitted.
You have MJD which is immune to bubbles and warp distrupter, and the cool down is reduced to 56 seconds to fits with the Bastion.
You have velocity bonused webs that deal with small ships with scrams (that is shorter than web range).
You could deal with heavy indicators, and even not, there are not going to be 10 HIs in a normal 50 people fleet.

So idealy, you could jump in (even not at range), MJD away to a place you like. Shoot everything within your range, take care of the ships with scram in the last 10 seconds with velocity bonus webs, while tanking with a 8000-9000 defence if someone is hitting you. when the Bastion module is off the MJD could start again. While considering the field situation and other factors the fleet commander could choose to MJD away and warp or MJD away and start the Bastion again.

I know this seems too theoretical but in the current fleet combat, bubbles are the main way to stop the opponent but not scram. so MJD could have a great performence. I belive these new Marauder would be useful when 50-100 people is on grid.


For PVP - why use such an expensive hull? For big fleet engagements it won't work, it's too expensive and nobody would SRP it - plus the bastion mode doesn't support remote repping, which means you're dead anyway if 100x enemy BS primary you. For small fleet engagements - any decent small roam has enough scrams to pin you down and at very close range you wont be able to hit **** with the marauder, no matter what. T1 BS aren't that much worse with a way lower price tag and the faction BS will still do a better job at it than the marauders, plus they'll be cheaper (if cheap can come to mind when talking about faction bs/marauders).

The primary goal of marauders is pve and this is why we're discussing it, it is supposed to work in that environment and if CCP is currently taking a look at it - yeah then people will try to show weaknesses or other approaches in order to get the best out of it. It's not always plain complaining but useful discussion to get the best compromise.


Yeah but when T3 came out everybody says that no one is going to pvp with them, they are too expensive and loosing them would cost skill points.
but that is not true.

When you know you are facing 100 BS you should not engage! please bear in mind MJD should save the fleet when 100 bs come down on top of you. if you are facing long range HACs, their dps should be tankable. there is only a few HACs could hit over 100km, while long ranged new Marauder could do 200km with PG for long range weapons. If you are afraid of probs, I will tell you you should not worry too much. you need time to scan, to warp the fleet and to apply the dps. With 56 of WJD cooldown the new Marauder should have enough time to react to it.

As I said the Maraduer should have higher tank, they should be able to reach 10000+ tank to deal with the dps.

And the primary goal of marauders.. That what ccp is trying to change here.
The primary goal of Amargeddon was dps and now its a neut boat.


Have you ever been to large fleet fights? If you can't fight another BS doctrine, don't bring your own. The MJD is easily counterable if you bring scrams - as usual you adapt to what your enemy is fielding - if you know the deploy marauders you bring enough heavy tackle + something like a blaster/scram rokh fleet and melt them. And if you're going for long range engagement you need many DICs/HICs and hope the enemy fleet isn't MJD'ed aswell or they'll just escape.

I understand what you're trying to point out - but my point is, the marauder doesn't do the stuff so much better than T1 BS that it's worth investing that amount of isk and welping a marauder fleet will cripple you. And a T3 will cost you half the isk, provide you with way more mobility, versatility and tank due to sig tank + remote reps.

So yeah, it's nice to see that there are some changes made to make it more pvp-able, but the focus should be to have a coherent ship for a specific task. In this case it's about pve and well, it depends on what ccp wants the marauder to be good at and design it this way. This is why we're discussing here, if this ship was supposed to be good at PVP it would need some major changes - and to give it even more tank etc... get a blapdread. I don't want the marauder to be something in between but to fulfill a specific role that it specializes in - that's what tiericide is about.
Szrapnell
Big Bad Bulls
#2445 - 2013-09-05 09:43:56 UTC
Change Bastion to DPS mode intead of tank - that's the best solution

2nd option go back to first rebalance and change 5% damage bonus on marauders for 10%, in bastion missile velo 50%
Nam Dnilb
Universal Frog
#2446 - 2013-09-05 09:47:43 UTC
Jack C Hughes wrote:
If you are afraid of probs, I will tell you you should not worry too much. you need time to scan, to warp the fleet and to apply the dps. With 56 of WJD cooldown the new Marauder should have enough time to react to it.


Scan time with a Scan Aquisition Array II is five seconds and we have custom probe formations now. Good luck!
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#2447 - 2013-09-05 09:47:53 UTC
If these things are going to be brawlers, let's make them brawlers...

The main change here is that the vast majority of bonuses now only apply to short-range weapons (pulse lasers, torpedoes, blasters and autocannons), so while you can run long-range Marauder setups - they're not as advantageous as before. Bastion has been changed to reduce speed (as opposed to dropping to 0), increase agility, increase tracking and explosion radius, greatly increase rate of fire and drastically increase reload times. And it requires heavy water to run (no unlimited fortress).

Ship stats: no changes.
Roll bonus: latest revision, with the addition of 50% to the effectiveness of target breakers

Paladin:
• Amarr: 5% bonus to capacitor capacity; 7.5% bonus to pulse laser optimal range
• Marauder: 5% bonus to large energy damage per level; 7.5% bonus to large energy weapon tracking per level

Golem:
• Caldari: 5% bonus to torpedo explosion velocity per level; 10% bonus to torpedo velocity
• Marauder: 7.5% bonus to explosion radius per level; 10% bonus to effectiveness of target painters per level

Kronos:
• Gallente: 5% bonus to blaster damage; 10% bonus to blaster falloff
• Marauder: 7.5% bonus to velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level; 7.5% bonus to large hybrid tracking per level

Vargur:
• Minmatar: 5% bonus to autocannon rate of fire; 10% bonus to autocannon falloff
• Marauder: 10% bonus to effectiveness of sensor boosters; 7.5% bonus to large projectile tracking per level

Bastion:
• Cycle time of 60 seconds (consumes heavy water, TBD; 5% reduction per Marauder skill level)
• Increase shield and armor repair amount by 100%
• Increases pulse laser, blaster and autocannon optimal/falloff by 25% and tracking by 10%
• Increases torpedo velocity by 25% and torpedo explosion radius by 10%
• Increases pulse laser, torpedo, blaster and autocannon rate of fire by 50%; reload time increased by 100%
• Reduces ship velocity by 50%; increases ship agility by 50%

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Gigi Barbagrigia
Digital Oddity
#2448 - 2013-09-05 09:53:57 UTC
Would it really be too much if you took Tier 1 BSs, build PvP Marauders from them; which would also let you keep them at more affordable prices and tweak existing T2s? On one hand you are selling roles' specialization and on the other you are trying to stretch existing ship's role. We've been around long enough to know how that ends P
Crysantos Callahan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#2449 - 2013-09-05 09:56:27 UTC
Nam Dnilb wrote:
Jack C Hughes wrote:
If you are afraid of probs, I will tell you you should not worry too much. you need time to scan, to warp the fleet and to apply the dps. With 56 of WJD cooldown the new Marauder should have enough time to react to it.


Scan time with a Scan Aquisition Array II is five seconds and we have custom probe formations now. Good luck!


Plus I want to see that kind of coalition that can field a maxed out (skillwise) marauder t2 large gunned fleet - they could bring something better with those skillpoints :P
Jack C Hughes
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2450 - 2013-09-05 09:57:13 UTC
Crysantos Callahan wrote:


Have you ever been to large fleet fights? If you can't fight another BS doctrine, don't bring your own. The MJD is easily counterable if you bring scrams - as usual you adapt to what your enemy is fielding - if you know the deploy marauders you bring enough heavy tackle + something like a blaster/scram rokh fleet and melt them. And if you're going for long range engagement you need many DICs/HICs and hope the enemy fleet isn't MJD'ed aswell or they'll just escape.

I understand what you're trying to point out - but my point is, the marauder doesn't do the stuff so much better than T1 BS that it's worth investing that amount of isk and welping a marauder fleet will cripple you. And a T3 will cost you half the isk, provide you with way more mobility, versatility and tank due to sig tank + remote reps.

So yeah, it's nice to see that there are some changes made to make it more pvp-able, but the focus should be to have a coherent ship for a specific task. In this case it's about pve and well, it depends on what ccp wants the marauder to be good at and design it this way. This is why we're discussing here, if this ship was supposed to be good at PVP it would need some major changes - and to give it even more tank etc... get a blapdread. I don't want the marauder to be something in between but to fulfill a specific role that it specializes in - that's what tiericide is about.


Yes I understand your point. Trying to conter certain ship will decrease the fleets ability to deal with others. If you bring something like a blaster rokh fleet you are putting yourself at risk- if others are bringing not only the Marauders but also HACs you are going to suffer. And can't fight another BS doctrine does not mean Marauders are useless. Bombers are not desined to fight assult frigs and this marauder might also not be designed to fight BS. They could do a good job fighting attact BCs, maybe HACs.

This new marauder is not going to be the main component of a fleet. And I agree BS could do better when used as the main force in a fleet. The advs of marauder decrease as the number of enemies increase. But have 30-40 of them on grid could be helpful. They could apply damage in long range, less likely to be catched, need speacial conter-measure, the scrams. Their MJD is always faster in time than other BS's.

I will define them in a role similar to the 8 smartbomb pipe bomb fleet. They are not going to attack enemy fleet head to head, instead they provide surprise.
Jack C Hughes
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2451 - 2013-09-05 10:00:03 UTC
Nam Dnilb wrote:
Jack C Hughes wrote:
If you are afraid of probs, I will tell you you should not worry too much. you need time to scan, to warp the fleet and to apply the dps. With 56 of WJD cooldown the new Marauder should have enough time to react to it.


Scan time with a Scan Aquisition Array II is five seconds and we have custom probe formations now. Good luck!


no matter how fast is your scan, the fleet needs to warp.
If a 100BS fleet is on short range scan but not on grid, why should marauder engage?
That is simply silly.
As silly as knowing there is capital ships waiting for you and you still jump your single carrier in.
If not on short range scan you really need some time to warp to the feild.
dexington
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2452 - 2013-09-05 10:02:35 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
dexington wrote:
I'm more then a little skeptical about the web bonus, especially on the kronos.


You're skeptical about it on the kronos?

How about the web bonus on the vargur? 'Here you go, have a bonus to a module that's going to cut into your tank, and by the way, if you were thinking of armor tanking it? You don't have the slots.' And now any tanking bonuses marauders had outside of bastion is gone, too.

Seriously, screw the web bonuses. They're ridiculous to begin with. You can't hit frigates? Drop some drones on 'em. You want to whine and moan for a bigger drone bay, go for it, but if all you're going to cry about is the web bonus? Buy a damned Vindicator and be done with it. The ship you're looking to fly is over there, it's a Pirate ship, and the second Battleship skill will take you less time and cost less than training up Marauders anyway.

But no no, we can't possibly only have one Megathron with a ridiculous web velocity bonus and extremely potent bonuses to its blasters, now can we?


I don't know the other marauders very well, but i do own and occasionally fly a Kronos, but i can see what you mean about not wanting to give up tank to fit a web. But i think it goes beyond just shield tanking, i mean why not just fit a tracking computer which with scripts just seem more useful.

The main reason i particularly don't like the web bonus on the Kronos, is because the Vindicator already has the same ability, just with a better skill bonus. You have two ships with the same hull and close to the same price tag, one is just better then the other in every way that really matters.



I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous.
Hayman Wakefield
Trans-Stellar Salvage Shipping and Securities
#2453 - 2013-09-05 10:10:23 UTC
Please let there be a 3rd iteration, this is just plain bizarre, taking the tanking bonuses that made the ships good in the first place and replacing it with some micky mouse web bonus on all the ships, just stop it. The T2 resists are horrible because they promptly open resist holes right where the ship's common faction rat damage type is meaning you have to use even more tanking modules.

They really just needed some fitting, speed, sensor and EHP love and maybe extending the tractor range to make it worthwhile against bringing a Noctis. Go back to the start look at the MJD idea and think about how you could turn them into MJD blipping (reactivation and spool up reductions); tanky ships with good damage projection, that concept would work pretty well in both PVE and PVP. These latest changes just makes me suspect your morning croissant is being spiked.
Patrice Macmahon
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2454 - 2013-09-05 10:17:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Patrice Macmahon
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:
Wouldn't it make more sense to combine the tanking with some sort of short-range bonus (like the web I guess) for situations when you are more likely to be taking heavy damage? Or keep the long-range bonus and combine that with something that more closely compliments a sniper role? Hell! Make two different types of Bastion module, one for each play-style so nobody can throw a fit.



Bing!

Bonus and DPS numbers would need to be adjusted and addressed, but here is a simplified revised "Murader" plan stamp.


Murader

Role Bonus:
Can Fit Bastion Modules
100% Bonus to large X weapon system
100% bonus to tractor range

T2 Resistances

[Appropriate Grid / CPU rebalancing to fit 4 largest caliber guns, plus appropriate fitting]

BS Skill Bonus [Total bonus]
+10 / 15 / +20% active rep bonus (2% / 3% or 4% per level)
+25% bonus to large X weapon system (5% per level)

Murader Skill
+37.5% Bonus to tracking / explosion velocity / Cap? (7.5% per level)
+37.5% Bonus to range (Optimal / Falloff) (7.5% per level)

Web bonus is gone off the hull and moved to the Bastion Module "B"

Bastion Modules:
Ship is Imobile
Ship cannot warp
Ship cannot jump or dock
Ship cannot receive external assistance
Ship is immune to ewar

- Tank is NOT increased while in bastion mode. All tanking is already on the ship hull. Its really a "Tough Man" moment to hit the button and commit using a Bastion Module -

Bastion Module A - "Long Tom"

Cycle time : 90 seconds

+200% (x3 multiplier) to damage
+100% (0.5 multiplier penalty) to rate of fire
+20% to optimal range (Fall off for minmitar)
-10% penalty to tracking?
+50% to lock time

[Dramatically increase weapon damage at the cost of firing speed. Small penalty to tracking. No Web Bonus. Meant to be used at long range. Longer cycle time means you are more vulnerable overall]


Bastion Module B - "Berserker"

Cycle time: 60 Seconds

-20% penalty to damage
-50% bonus to rate of fire (2x multiplier)
+100% Bonus to tracking (explosion velocity / golem)
+ 50% bonus to stasis webber velocity (or web range)
+ 15% bonus to fall off (optimal for minmitar)

[And here we have our ultimate brawlers, for you auto cannon / blaster / pulse lazor / torpedo slingin hot shots. Shorter cycle time would allow for a pick and move moment as the fight unfolds]

This sort of set up would need a lot of tweaking to get the numbers right. But I think the essence is there. Murader Pilots keep the essence of their mission boats, while adding in the missing damage quotient and role niche they need at the cost of going kamakazi.]


This is fairly balanced, because the price you pay for locking yourself down is forgoing any GTFO moments and pure immobility. In PVE if your tank is failing not only do you have to wait for the triage mode to spool off, you then have to get momentum and align to save the ship. In PVP, if you go triage you have 60 seconds where a primary call from a significant force can kill you (Neuts or sheer alpha damage).


Might be something to seriously consider.

 "Much of this is crystallised in our philosophy, or as others call it "the Intaki Faith". We simply call it Ida - the literal translation is "to consider", and is a good description of the Intaki." 
Doc Buddy
Nomad Mining Company
#2455 - 2013-09-05 10:31:29 UTC
Not so sure about the whole sitting stationary in a level 4 with a marauder. I thought the point, and fun of them is to move around.

I also was under the impression that one of the main roles of the Marauder was the tractor bonus for salvaging on the fly. If you continue with the theme of salvaging a bonus to salvage drone speed would be nice.


For the most part they seem ok the way are now for PVE. It would be nice if they could put out a bit more dps.

All the talk in this thread about turning them into mini-dreads makes one think wouldn’t be easier to turn them into a pure PVP ship and have CCP tell CONCORD that Dreadnaughts/capitals are now legal in Hi-Sec?
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#2456 - 2013-09-05 10:38:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Lloyd Roses
dexington wrote:

The new kronos seem like a weak version of the vindicator, weak damage, no mobility and weak webs.



That is really shortsighted.

The Kronos got a couple drawbacks (weaker webs, smaller dronebay, less raw damage and weak sensors) but in advance, it got 4 utility highs, tech-II-resist, tracking and rangebonus, aswell as a reduced cooldown on MJDs.

I see a variet of situations where I'd rather want a kronos as it is propsed compared to a Windicator.

Though I'm totally ignoring pve, just looking at pvp-qualities. For small gang, the Kronos seems a whole lot more useful as currently proposed compared to the rather straight and narrow Vindi. Even losing a little raw damage.


Doc Buddy wrote:

All the talk in this thread about turning them into mini-dreads makes one think wouldn’t be easier to turn them into a pure PVP ship and have CCP tell CONCORD that Dreadnaughts/capitals are now legal in Hi-Sec?


It's mostly that people complaining marauders becoming minidreads never flew one themselves. They make for as good minidreads as bombers make for an AB-web-scram-breacher.
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
Gluten Free Cartel
#2457 - 2013-09-05 10:39:06 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
No, talking about missions where faction determines what type of damage you deal if you have the option to choose. To some extent it also determines where you're going to mission with a particular ship.

When grinding in Amarr space quite often I had on offer missions against Angels, in Gallente space Blood Raiders and Sansha are quite common and bloody Drones are everywhere. Unless you cherry-pick missions you always have to be prepared to deal with every damage type.

Okay, Kronos and Golem can tank Serpentis/Guristas for free, but for anything else they have to be well prepared. While on Vargur I used to fit only one hardener for major profile and slapped invuln for good measure and it worked every time, epic arcs (all four) included.

Quote:
For the Amarr they tend to like to shoot Blood Raiders and Sansha because that's where they deal the most damage.

They may like to but it's not what they are always given.

Quote:
On top of this the Kronos and Golem both have high Kin and Therm resists which also makes up the vast majority of resisted damage in missions as well. So now we're looking at two ships that deal more effective damage AND can tank the rats for those types more effectively and two ships that have to pick. That SUCKS for the people who fly those two ships.

And so there was I, who after long time flying Gallente ships had found Vargur's omni tank as a great relief. Big smile Look, I don't expect you to change your mind, and also I don't suppose you are able to bring argument changing mine. So let's maybe just agree that the issue is not as black-and-white as it looks on the first sight?
To mare
Advanced Technology
#2458 - 2013-09-05 10:39:19 UTC  |  Edited by: To mare
ithink they really deserve a 5th turret/missile launcher
every marauder have less potential dps than one T1 BS of the same race
Debora Tsung
Perkone
Caldari State
#2459 - 2013-09-05 10:44:19 UTC
Ager Agemo wrote:
either way the bastion mode its a dead sentence, having friends wont help because they cannot even heal or boost you.


I suspect they'd have wepons which they can use to inflict pain on the other gang... Once you've dealt with the ewar ship that's cockblocking your gang.

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

Fighting back is more fun than not.

Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.
marVLs
#2460 - 2013-09-05 10:46:11 UTC
Maybe change bastion so when it activates all modules are overheated for 60seconds, when cycle ends they need to cooldown for some time (1min?)