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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#2381 - 2013-09-05 05:19:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Mina Sebiestar
Patrice Macmahon wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
Against sansha/blood, tracking disruptor immunity is worth far more DPS than the DPS lost from beingstationary. Against other rats, you have your t2 resists in place of the tank bonus.



That is a non issue. Extreme range on guns, and the ability to MOVE to lower angular is how you best blood raiders.


The only rats the bastion module EWAR immunity truly helps against are Pithi Jammers. You seriously have to nerf your fit to get a semblance of a work around.

The ability to MOVE helps turret gunners hit their targets more effectively than any other module or boosting service.


Moot point and situational if your dmg output is projected well and you know at what range your tracking will break there is no need to move at all.

Point of siege'd marauder is exactly that it will project its dps in a away that no one of us truly know ...that blaster kronos that was posted by CCP guy had r******d range with crappy enhancer and tracking comp,you cant dream of those numbers with current ships it doesn't matter how many or what king of gear you slap on it or what is linking / boosting you.

You can also relocate your self if needed be like having tracking issues or what ever.

meet dominix with crappy t1 resist no boost bonus no crystals no drugs no bastion no tracking bonus 2 slot tank. standing perfectly still and ...well...dominating.

I cant see how ships that will have all of what that ship don't will suck at mission running.

That being said..i do find universal web bonus weird(maybe range webs) a...s well i hate MJD bonus and don't appreciate nerf in speed / agility outside bastion module.

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard
Jelani Akinyemi Affonso
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#2382 - 2013-09-05 05:24:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Jelani Akinyemi Affonso
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Time for another update.

We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:


  • Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.

  • We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.

  • Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.


I will change the OP to match the changes.


-1

Seem lilke the Maurauders were suppose to be a T2 sniping version BS because the bonus they get have to do with increase range on their main weapons. This would further indicate this since they get a buff for MJD usage, and the bastion module increase range on their main guns.

So why the webs? are they suppose to be tackling ships? Don't we have other ships that can do a better job at this? Also aren't T2 ships suppose to be more specialize? By adding this bonus aren't you making them more versatile as a T1?

Edit: Also please refer to Katrina Oniseki post #2022 pg.102
As I feel, she gets the points across better than I.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#2383 - 2013-09-05 05:45:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
I just read that you have removed the resists from the Bastion mode, I am not going to read all the hot air in this thread, but I was very excited by this original idea for both PvP and PvE and was looking forward to using these ships, now I will not bother as they will be worse than they were before, what an absolute dogs dinner!!!

There are times that CCP should just go for it and this was one of them times.

EDIT: You had created a new and exciting BS and you let the spergelords destroy it, god damnit!!!!

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
#2384 - 2013-09-05 05:50:18 UTC
Ravasta Helugo wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Time for another update.

We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:


  • Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.

  • We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.

  • Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.


I will change the OP to match the changes.

Woah.

Uh, I kinda wanted that non-stacking 30% though. It would have been a huge F U to gankers. Tech II resists... damn. Uh, I'm not sure how I feel about this. In one fell swoop you just make these things way less tanky and ... replaced it with a web bonus... that's weaker than the current web bonus.

This is going to make my Paladin slightly worse than it is now, won't it? I just... I need to evaluate these changes in depth and stop rambling.

My first reaction is NOT supportive though. Don't cave so easily to the haters.


+1 Really... Thats sad News...

Meet the Mario Kart 8 - Capsuleer Club Cup
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#2385 - 2013-09-05 05:53:13 UTC
Maybe it is worth considering splitting the class into two ships. A PVP focused one, t2 resists better damage worse damage application, cheaper cost roughly half current ones.

A PVE one, better damage application, rep bonuses, bastion module (with res bonus back.), tractor bonuses, minor scan probe bonus (maybe) but less tank when out of bastion mode than PVP focused one.

Both would get the 70% reduction to MJD cool down time

If the PVP group could find the bastion module useful then it could be handled so that the PVE focused ship has a role bonus for 30% shield, armor, and hull resistances when deployed.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Patrice Macmahon
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2386 - 2013-09-05 05:53:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Patrice Macmahon
Mina Sebiestar:


The ship you presented was a multi BILLION dollar NAVY Faction ship. And just polightly pointed out the issue in question.

That navy faction ship has a 3 minute 500 DPS Angel Specific tank, as well as 1400 + DPS output at 50+ KM.

Compare that to a three Mag Stab Kronos, at similar cost - who will have a 450 DPS Angel specific tank, and 800-900 DPS output. Only difference is that we project damage to about 60km.

He is brick tanking, but he is also EXTREME fit. That two slot tank is an OFFICER shield hardener and Ghist X type shield booster.

He is only able to pull that off because he is specifically tanking Angels using shield resistances.

You just illustrated the issue that is at hand. Navy and Pirate class hulls are outshining and out pacing Muraders as a whole.

That's not a "crappy t1 dominix'.

And that was only Pirate Invasion. A VERY EASY mission.


[Dominix Navy Issue, New Setup 1]
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Republic Fleet Tracking Enhancer
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II

Gist X-Type Large Shield Booster
Naiyon's Modified Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Federation Navy Omnidirectional Tracking Link
Federation Navy Omnidirectional Tracking Link
Federation Navy Tracking Computer, Optimal Range Script
Federation Navy Tracking Computer, Optimal Range Script

425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L

Large Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer II
Large Anti-Kinetic Screen Reinforcer II
Large Sentry Damage Augmentor I

Garde II x5

 "Much of this is crystallised in our philosophy, or as others call it "the Intaki Faith". We simply call it Ida - the literal translation is "to consider", and is a good description of the Intaki." 
marVLs
#2387 - 2013-09-05 06:07:02 UTC
About this last changes, not only You tank worse with and without bastion but You lost 30% res to hull in bastion modeAttention


So another thing suggest that first iteration was better (but still no good)
To mare
Advanced Technology
#2388 - 2013-09-05 06:16:11 UTC
marVLs wrote:
About this last changes, not only You tank worse with and without bastion but You lost 30% res to hull in bastion modeAttention


So another thing suggest that first iteration was better (but still no good)


first iteration of bastion module just screamed station camping machine now its a bit toned down (not too much since now you got full T2 resist active all the time)
but still not what a marauder should do imho
Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#2389 - 2013-09-05 06:18:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Mina Sebiestar
@ Patrice Macmahon

Large Sentry Damage Augmentor I
sentry range rig

Naiyon's Modified Adaptive Invulnerability Field

Gist invul

The very things i would use on marauder / pirate ship as a matter of fact i did unfit my kronos to fit that domi.

I am getting 1000 dps with kronos 4 mags / t2 burst excluding drones because incoming nerf...(much easier to fit it don't NEED bilion in tank that domi does need)

I would like to see more dps sure i wasted billions on those ships..but that dmg projection will be extreme bonus.



Edit

all missions are very easy diff3rence of extra hardener to fit or not...not sure what are you getting at there...marauders would tank better anyway.

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard
Tsukihi Hareka
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#2390 - 2013-09-05 06:19:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Tsukihi Hareka
In fact, THE CURRENT Version of Marauder IS MUCH BETTER than your new one!!
With nerfed rep not in bastion mod, we have less rep in ehp and less ehp, and we have less speed which means we take more damage. When in bastion mode, we take full damage, the 100% more rep doesn't help that much. Don't Even need to say, Golem and VARGUR have a cap problem now.
And what is a web for Golem? Cruises don't have any bonus from bastion mode either. Guns have a little damage boost through the increased falloff and optimal, missles get nothing.


If you change Marauders like this, I will definitely destroy my Marauders to salvage.
Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2391 - 2013-09-05 06:25:11 UTC
Onslaughtor wrote:
I love the idea of the bastion module but I feel we are getting away from what these ships were conceived and named for.

ma·raud·er
noun
plural noun: marauders

1.
a person who marauds; a raider.

raid·er
noun
noun: raider; plural noun: raiders

1.
a person who attacks an enemy in the enemy's territory; a marauder.

By this logic frigates and battlecruisers need to be completely redesigned from the ground up, because they don't match the correct nautical usage at all.
marVLs
#2392 - 2013-09-05 06:31:39 UTC
Maybe give them special salvage drone bay (50) with bonus to their salvage strenghtQuestion
Tanik Fera
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#2393 - 2013-09-05 06:38:52 UTC
Ok, my OCD is killing me here, for the love of all that is holly please fix the bonuses on the Golum by removing the missile bonuses and adding a warp jammer bonus and an ECM jammer strength bonus! Complete the EWAR set ASAP!
Fettle
#2394 - 2013-09-05 06:40:18 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Time for another update.

We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:


  • Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.

  • We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.

  • Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.


I will change the OP to match the changes.


[PVE perspective]
A web bonus to all marauders isn't all that helpful. Not all pilots use the short range weapons that stand to benefit from these webbers. Further, it takes away the identity that currently lie with the Kronos and Paladin.

Regarding the rep bonus removal, as long as the marauders tanking isn't harmed in the process, i'm fine with this. Ideally, improving the tanking would be better, but if it is unaffected due to whatever bonuses you will give (via T2 resist or rep bonuses in bastion mode) than this is fine. Perhaps more capacitor options? The current rep bonus was to speed the rep mod cycle, so perhaps something that effects this could be better.

[PVP perspective]
Perhaps webbing range might be better than velocity factor? One could imagine a marauder drop with half (Paladins and Kronos) webbing and the other half (Golems and Vargurs) target painting. A slow, sig-blown target is a target short for the eve galaxy.
Caitlyn Tufy
Perkone
Caldari State
#2395 - 2013-09-05 06:47:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Caitlyn Tufy
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.


Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. You, good sir, have just earned yourself a large can of beer as soon as I get to Iceland.


On the topic of Marauder changes, you've just transformed marauders from snipers to... not sure what. Imo, when it comes to tank, the changes are good, but the close range web kinda doesn't fit the whole picture with MJD jumpring and all. Considering Marauders are a T2 ship that should be specialized in something, that seems remarkably generalist and imo, the web just doesn't fit this frame. I'm not saying close range doesn't fit the overall ship idea, after all, the tractors have a limited range too (provided people even use them). However, if you want to have them used at close range, their speed is going to be a problem. Some people are claiming how the Golem will be an absolute beast in pvp - yeah, well, in order to use that web, you first need to catch a target. Somehow I doubt that's going to happen if you're moving 85 m/s. Even bricks like Rokh are faster and will run circles around those ships.

Then again, this might go hand in hand with Bastion - a sort of "space bunker" with no-entry zone. Hm... I'll have to think about this some more... In that case, our friend above might be right, the webbing range might be a better idea.
Patrice Macmahon
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2396 - 2013-09-05 06:48:45 UTC
@ Mina Sebiestar

I think I've lost sight of our discussion here.


To help me clarify your standpoint: Muraders are inferior? (Hence the T1 domi example).

I was pointing out the ship you demonstraited was the cause of a lot of the issues surrounding Muraders (Currently outshined by Navy and Pirate Faction Ships).

So where does that leave us?

The main strength of the Murader is in it's ability to be a semi-universal boat with far reaching / ranging applications with less need to over specialize the fit. With DPS sitting at approximately 800-900 (1,000++ under extremely specialized fitting situations), mobility is needed to ensure safe completion of sites, missions, and complexes at the high end of the difficulty scale. Brick Tanking is inferior to range tanking in these situations, so a Triage or Siege module would be useless, unless that siege module also drastically increased DPS output by 50% or more, as well as jacked tracking speeds to handle medium and smaller class frigates that have reached orbital ranges.

Without the Rep Bonus or Resist Bonus (Out of Siege), the murader would be incapable of handling those "Top Tier" mission pockets / extreme situations. In Siege Mode, effective DPS would be greatly lowered once orbitals are achieved, creating unnecessary hardship compared to the current iteration of Murader.

The Muraders are capable of handling mission pockets and scenarios that your Domi example could not, with less fitting specialization (cheaper and more universal). I am trying to argue that we need to preserve those capabilities and explain how Muraders are currently utilized. We don't brick tank missions.

 "Much of this is crystallised in our philosophy, or as others call it "the Intaki Faith". We simply call it Ida - the literal translation is "to consider", and is a good description of the Intaki." 
Patrice Macmahon
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2397 - 2013-09-05 06:54:41 UTC
Just going to bring this up one more time, all by itself:

Anyone else notice that a Tier 3 Battle Cruiser, is cheaper - has the dame DPS and Range Output as a murader, and is faster with a MWD?

Why are we trying to make a 1 billion isk, T2 Ship fill that role with a MJD?

Is all the extra training and base skills + specialty skills really necessary when, before you can get to that point, you can already slap a MJD on a Rhok or megathron and get the same general effect if you REALLY want it to be a battle ship?

The MJD for PVE would be really situational, and how often are you expecting to have to MJD out of a tight spot while burning away?..... AB's do that already for PVE really well...

 "Much of this is crystallised in our philosophy, or as others call it "the Intaki Faith". We simply call it Ida - the literal translation is "to consider", and is a good description of the Intaki." 
dexington
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2398 - 2013-09-05 06:54:52 UTC
I'm more then a little skeptical about the web bonus, especially on the kronos.

There really is no reason to buy a kronos, when you compare it to the vindicator. Unless armor incursion fleets are somehow going to get more popular, you are going to be stuck in a ship doomed to flying level 4 missions for all eternity.

The new kronos seem like a weak version of the vindicator, weak damage, no mobility and weak webs.

It's has superior tank, which wouldn't be needed if it was able to move. It has better range, which it wouldn't need if it was able to move. Everything added to the marauders is added because they are now stationary ships, which all-in-all makes them just as useless as they are now.

The pirate ship will remain the end of the line pve battleship, and the marauders will remain overpriced under performing level 4 ships...

I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous.
Tsukihi Hareka
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#2399 - 2013-09-05 06:55:26 UTC
Now in fact we get less DPS, less TANK, less Mobility, And ,we need to put more skill points into this.

WHY do we need this crap?
Cassius Invictus
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#2400 - 2013-09-05 07:02:29 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
hmskrecik wrote:
Cassius Invictus wrote:
But how Paladin and (to a lesser extent) Vargur can be good for PvE if their resist don't match the rats they are fighting?

Maybe because both Paladin and Vargur are natural omni tankers? Which means that no matter what rats you fight you can easily tank against them. None of filling this explosive hole on Kronos and EM on Golem.


Still doesn't change the fact that the Golem and Kronos are in a better position to tank every type of mission rat than the Vargur or Paladin. With high Kin/Therm resists you can ignore half or all of the resists needed for every mission rat in the game since they all deal Kinetic or Thermal as a primary or secondary damage type and 8 out of 14 rat types deal primarily both.

The argument is not that these are worse than what's on live, it's that the 30% omni-resists from Bastion were better.


Exactly my point.