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New dev blog: Hybrid weapon and Tech II ammo balancing

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Author
Rip Minner
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
#1141 - 2011-11-14 07:55:06 UTC
Another way to even the playing field alittle is Tech 2 ammos.

Right now there are only a Long range and Short range tech 2 ammo that means there can be 6 more tech 2 ammos.

You can add in differnt dmg types for Hybirds and Lazors using more Tech 2 ammo's.

Granted it's not much but it's a start to leveling the playing field between the 3 differnt gun systems.

Were by you have 1 gun system that has 1 major draw back a 10 sec reload timer. And the other two systems suffer from many times that number of drawbacks.

Also when talking about drawbacks no one likes the fact that Lazers suck so much cap and have to have a crap cap bonces for the ships so that they dont cap out in a few secs to a few mins. You should rebalance Amarr ships and Lazors right along with Hybirds so they dont get left behind. Lazors are in second place compared to Projectials. They mite realy compete with them if you just cut cap on Lazors by 50% and give them a real combat bonce on there ships. Granted you mite also need to rebalance a few of the amarr ships cap power supply's.Ugh





Is it a rock point a lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship point a lazer at it and profit. I dont see any problems here.

BooooooBeeeeeer
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1142 - 2011-11-14 08:48:22 UTC
I would like to have seen the comments ССР, they read this thread at all? Or answered once and that's enough?
What do they think will make a hybrid its chip? Or consider that done enough?
It's a shame to scream into the void, say anything at all, please Sad
Tania Russ
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#1143 - 2011-11-14 17:24:41 UTC
I want to reiterate an idea I had that hasn't seen a lot of comment so far.

Precis: replace blaster and rail hybrids completely with 1 new weapon, that changes characteristics based on ammunition type.

So if you load "blaster" ammo, the weapon behaves as a blaster; load "rail" ammo and the weapon behaves like a rail.

This adaptability would level the playing field in terms of weapon choice without requiring the actual mechanics of the way rails and blasters function to change that much, because the sheer adaptability of this new hybrid platform would be beneficial enough to make it an attractive alternative to say, fitting ACs on a Gallente ship (which currently is sadly, the norm. Not that people would necessarily stop doing that.)

I think this change, comboned with some minor buffs to damage output and tracking as already outlined by CCP and under tet on SiSi, wouldotally revolutionize the use of hybrid weapons for both PvP and PvE.
Sydney Nelson
Nelson Universal Aerospace
#1144 - 2011-11-14 18:07:18 UTC
This "webbifier effect" idea might be a pretty good fix.

Just re-do the webs so that they take the target ship's stats into effect.

The more mass a ship has, the harder it is to slow-down.
Pretty simple really.

Conversely, the lighter and more agile a ship is, the easier it is to slow-down.
I know EVE-physics is a joke, but THIS idea makes a lot of sense by real-life physics standards, which is always nice.

I still like the "mwd/speed/agility-bonus on hybrid turrets" idea too.
indicast
Conquerors Undead Space
#1145 - 2011-11-14 20:08:25 UTC
Tania Russ wrote:
I want to reiterate an idea I had that hasn't seen a lot of comment so far.

Precis: replace blaster and rail hybrids completely with 1 new weapon, that changes characteristics based on ammunition type.

So if you load "blaster" ammo, the weapon behaves as a blaster; load "rail" ammo and the weapon behaves like a rail.

This adaptability would level the playing field in terms of weapon choice without requiring the actual mechanics of the way rails and blasters function to change that much, because the sheer adaptability of this new hybrid platform would be beneficial enough to make it an attractive alternative to say, fitting ACs on a Gallente ship (which currently is sadly, the norm. Not that people would necessarily stop doing that.)

I think this change, comboned with some minor buffs to damage output and tracking as already outlined by CCP and under tet on SiSi, wouldotally revolutionize the use of hybrid weapons for both PvP and PvE.



good luck with that,ccp doesnt even read the forums
Rip Minner
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
#1146 - 2011-11-15 08:51:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Rip Minner
Hybirds were not broken in a single patch or day. They were broken over alot of patchs and I see it as a 3 fold brake that realy needs a 3 fold fix. So I would realy like it if you read all the way though and give your feed back/ideals and fixs and what you think is the best fix for each problem.

Problems.

1.) Projectiles and Lazers got buffed.

2.) Minmatar and Amarr ships were rebalanced and buffed alittle is some cases.

3.) Game Mechanics.

1.) I feel part 1 has been fixed. This changes are going to leave Hybirds better off today then they were yesterday. But this only true if parts 2-3 are just as fairly and evenly fixed as well.

2.) Hybird ship rebalancing. I feel the ship rebalancing is also just fine. But Minmatar and Gallente ships realy need to have that Acitve tanking bonus fixed.

I will place my fix for that here.

I personly feel that leting it affect remote reps mite be two powerfull. I am with thoughs that think it should add Hit points to shields/armor/hull. Now it do's not need to do all 3 it could be something like Minmater adds to Shields and Hulls and Gallente adds to Armor and Hulls. And just work out the right numbers of were it needs to be for the passive pvp tanks that realy do need the EHP.

3.) Game Mechanic's. This is the realy big one. The one few people can agre on whats right and whats not. Worst of all the sky's the limit or at least what the EVE program can be made to do is the limit. So there is no one right way to fix this there are alot of ways to do it that all work.

Here are is how I see Rails and Blasters working. Blasters need to own that space of 0km to 10km-15km depending of if its a Gallente blaster boat 10km or Caldari blaster boat 15km. And rails need to own that 150km to 250km space. How to make that happen is a very hot topic but must be talked about never the less. So I will place what I feel would be the best and most fair ideals here first the ones for Rails then the ones for Blasters.

Is it a rock point a lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship point a lazer at it and profit. I dont see any problems here.

Rip Minner
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
#1147 - 2011-11-15 08:52:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Rip Minner
Rails need to own that 150km-250km. Also I feel this changes not only boost Rails ships but all ships in EVE.

1.) First problem is you cant lock out pass 150km so change the locking range to 250km.

2.) Second problem people can just warp right to you after the first 100km. Need to push that on gride warp to mechanic out to 250km also.

3.) Third problem On gride scaning is way overpowered. We understand why the scaning changes had to be made for Worm Holes and also so no budy can hide in low sec. but we need a counter to this for Sniping plateforms. And best of all I dont think we even need to change a thing about how scaning works right now to fix this problem.

My ideal is a new Module. It will come in 3 flavors and with a high/low/mid slot placements. What this Module will do is randomly though off the scaner probes warp to location any were from 20km-80km depending on witch module was fited to ship ether the high/low/mid slot.

High slot Module

Con's Takes up a gun slot and just as much cpu/gride/cap as Large Hybird Turrent. It's the middle ground for Large turrents and it also more or less makes the High slot module the BS sized one.

This Module when turned on will consume cap but it thoughs the ship scan prob randomly off target by 40km-80km. Meaning that if the prober selects warp to 0km they will end up 40km-80km off target. If the prober were to for what ever reason select warp 20km then they would randomly end up 60km-100km way from you the 20km+the random 40km-80km. I know I am not very good at explaning this but I hope you get the ruff ideal here.

Low slot Module

Works just like the high slot only it has it's CPU/grid/cap cost set for cruisers. And it only thoughs off probs by 30km-60km

Mid slot Module
Works just like the other to only it has it's CPU/grid set for frigs with no cap cost and it only thoughs off probs by 20km-40km.

Thats my ideal. I think it solves the Overpoweredness of combate scaning by thoughing in some randomness and removing the ablity to always! Land in perfect range zone for your ships. And adds into the game thoughs ranges at witch not only Rails work but we mite see some Tachies some times too.

And you have to remeaber that Hybirds are not Alph weapons there dps weapons and they need alittle time in one spot to effectivly apply some of it so there do's need to be that 40km-80km randomness in there. They land 40km it's time to move right away and never get the time to realy be effective. At 40km off mark there are still point cruiser with points going out to 20km it do's not take a cruiser very long with a mwd to cover 20km. But out at the 80km rails would have a chances to sit alittle bit longer and be able to apply effectivly some of there dps.

And on top of that I just feel that combat scaning is just to good and could use alittle smuging.

Blasters

Man there are alot of ideals for this one but I most like ideals that keep blasters at close range.

I have another broad sweaping ideal that will effect every ship in game and I belive it would help blaster boats out.

Add in a new ship stat called Engine Thrust or something in the lines. What this will be use for is to have a stat that ruffly covers the str of your ships engines. Naturely Armor tanking ships will have stronger engines to move there heavy ships around and probly a few of the Minmatar armor tanked ships too but to a lesser degree from Gallente or Amarr ships but to a greater degree of shield tanked ships.

Affter that we will change Webbers again. Webbers will be changed to graduly slow a ship down based off of the Mass and Engine Thrust/str of the targted ship.

I.E. The heavyer the ships and the stronger the ships engines the longer it will take for the webber to fully slow the ship down to the speed at witch all webbers work today.

What that will do for blasters is buy them more time in that 0km-10km/15km range.

It will also make webbers more usefull on smaller ships and less usefull on bigger ones. But we have ewar thats more usefull on differnt ships types then others already any ways and this webbers will still have the same total webbing str they have to day. They will only work better on smaller ships in the sences that a frig would be fully slowed much faster then a BS would be and it even is logical.

Ya thats my very best ideal for blaster boats its probly not the best but I at least think it is a more logical solution.

If you made it this far down I think you and greatly look forward to your feed back.

Is it a rock point a lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship point a lazer at it and profit. I dont see any problems here.

Keen Fallsword
Skyway Patrol
#1148 - 2011-11-15 11:09:32 UTC
This is 58 pages thread without any respond from CCP's side.. I think is useless guys.. Almost final build is on SiSi and I think that this is all what we can get.

Welcome new/old fail-ente :(

Crap
Fox Strongbow
Hideaway Hunters
The Hideaway.
#1149 - 2011-11-15 11:13:25 UTC
Hi there CCP,

As you are focusing on making hybrid more viable as an option, may I formally request you take a look at the Ferox? As the Caldari Hybrid battlecruiser (as I understand this class of ship is the most commonly used by newer players) it is severely lacking in terms of l3 mission running / exploration / ratting , and I would LOVE to have a viable hybrid alternative to the drake.

I spent a few days trying everything I could to get its tank / dps ratio good enough and it just wasn't up to the task, even when you removed dps from the equasion the tank still fell through! I think the gunnery changes may increase its DPS to a runnable standard, but its tank is still really bad.

Ask anyone, it isn't really a viable ship and its a real shame as I personally prefer hybrids but am stuck in a drake as the ferox just can't tank even remotely well enough.

If you are looking at fixing Hybrids, one way of making them properly viable again is to fix the Ferox, as having a viable caldari alternative to the drake would be fantastic!. It says it should strike fear into the hearts of enemies, in fact, flying the thing strikes fear into my heart as its made of paper!

Please fix the Ferox's tanking ability, I would love to shelve my drake and power up some hybrids.

Thank you for reading my post :)

Fox
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#1150 - 2011-11-15 11:26:43 UTC
Ferox has a nice tank, however they lack a serious punch to even be remotely competible... If they want it to keep current bonuses I'd suggest giving it the 7th turret even if it originally started at 5. Optimal bonus is so hard to use in pvp for more than a few seconds and in PvE you often find yourself more in need of a damage bonus even if the extra range is nice with antimatter :-)

Pinky
Phoenix Torp
Almost Absolute
#1151 - 2011-11-15 11:27:20 UTC
Downloading SiSi patch right now... 280.26MB

http://eveboard.com/pilot/Phoenix_Torp

Phoenix Torp
Almost Absolute
#1152 - 2011-11-15 11:58:54 UTC
Errr... well... the Electron Blaster Cannon II of my Hyperion in SiSi now have a Reload Time of "Less than one second". So we have almost insta-reload, like Amarr.

http://eveboard.com/pilot/Phoenix_Torp

Phoenix Torp
Almost Absolute
#1153 - 2011-11-15 13:10:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Phoenix Torp
Electron Blaster Cannon in Hyperion with 1 Mag Field Stab T2:

Belonging to EFT:
Activation 6.3
Duration(RoF) 2.8998
Optimal 3000
Damage Modifier 4.56586
Falloff 7500
Tracking 0.0625

On SiSi
Activation 9.555 >50% more CAP use
Duration(RoF) 5.07s 75% more slower
Optimal 4500 +50% optimal range
Damage Modifier 9.037413 Almost doubled
Falloff 12500km +66,67%
Tracking 0.06495 +3.92%

EDIT: On EFT 121m/s and SiSi 143.8m/s

http://eveboard.com/pilot/Phoenix_Torp

m0cking bird
Doomheim
#1154 - 2011-11-15 13:52:37 UTC  |  Edited by: m0cking bird
Phoenix Torp wrote:
Electron Blaster Cannon in Hyperion with 1 Mag Field Stab T2:

Belonging to EFT:
Activation 6.3
Duration(RoF) 2.8998
Optimal 3000
Damage Modifier 4.56586
Falloff 7500
Tracking 0.0625

On SiSi
Activation 9.555 >50% more CAP use
Duration(RoF) 5.07s 75% more slower
Optimal 4500 +50% optimal range
Damage Modifier 9.037413 Almost doubled
Falloff 12500km +66,67%
Tracking 0.06495 +3.92%

EDIT: On EFT 121m/s and SiSi 143.8m/s



Seems CCP likes my slight changes suggestions. Making me the winner of whatever game we're all playing... HAHAHAHHA! cough* I should work for these dudes. I will bring chaos to the FORCE!

Interesting though. That is a bigger increase in falloff and optimal than I suggested. Is this only on the Hyperion? @ work cant check.
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#1155 - 2011-11-15 14:07:11 UTC
Phoenix Torp wrote:
Electron Blaster Cannon in Hyperion with 1 Mag Field Stab T2:

Belonging to EFT:
Activation 6.3
Duration(RoF) 2.8998
Optimal 3000
Damage Modifier 4.56586
Falloff 7500
Tracking 0.0625

On SiSi
Activation 9.555 >50% more CAP use
Duration(RoF) 5.07s 75% more slower
Optimal 4500 +50% optimal range
Damage Modifier 9.037413 Almost doubled
Falloff 12500km +66,67%
Tracking 0.06495 +3.92%

EDIT: On EFT 121m/s and SiSi 143.8m/s


Playing on sisi at the first second came on live after the patch, I don't have anything looking like your numbers.

Skills, bugs, whatsoever? -I don't know but I really don't have nothing compared with the numbers you just thrown out there.
In fact my numbres are worst.

My mega fitting hasn't changed, only it's dps got a little up very small speed increase and fitting just a little bit easier but nothing remarquable enough to make a dev blog.

On the other side I've clearly noticed Talos can fit a full rack of neutrons (shield fit) just like the nage (witch has a lot better range engagement) but can't fit a full rack of 425mm II ...

Awesome.
Phoenix Torp
Almost Absolute
#1156 - 2011-11-15 14:21:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Phoenix Torp
Tanya Powers wrote:
Phoenix Torp wrote:
Electron Blaster Cannon in Hyperion with 1 Mag Field Stab T2:

Belonging to EFT:
Activation 6.3
Duration(RoF) 2.8998
Optimal 3000
Damage Modifier 4.56586
Falloff 7500
Tracking 0.0625

On SiSi
Activation 9.555 >50% more CAP use
Duration(RoF) 5.07s 75% more slower
Optimal 4500 +50% optimal range
Damage Modifier 9.037413 Almost doubled
Falloff 12500km +66,67%
Tracking 0.06495 +3.92%

EDIT: On EFT 121m/s and SiSi 143.8m/s


Playing on sisi at the first second came on live after the patch, I don't have anything looking like your numbers.

Skills, bugs, whatsoever? -I don't know but I really don't have nothing compared with the numbers you just thrown out there.
In fact my numbres are worst.

My mega fitting hasn't changed, only it's dps got a little up very small speed increase and fitting just a little bit easier but nothing remarquable enough to make a dev blog.

On the other side I've clearly noticed Talos can fit a full rack of neutrons (shield fit) just like the nage (witch has a lot better range engagement) but can't fit a full rack of 425mm II ...

Awesome.


I've got all the affected gunnery skills at 5 but Large Blaster Spec that's 4. And Gallente BS at 5.
And... I've got a signature with my skills, blind XD.

http://eveboard.com/pilot/Phoenix_Torp

Phoenix Torp
Almost Absolute
#1157 - 2011-11-15 14:49:46 UTC
Time for the Mega. It has 5 Tracking Enhancer, 1 Mag Stab and 1 Track Computer. Also Large Hybrid rigs:
Locus Coordinator
Collision Accelerator
Ambit Extension

Belonging to EFT, Neutron Blaster Cannon II stats:

Activation 13.65
RoF 5.07465s
Optimal 6761.8379
Damage Modifier 9.92537
Falloff 27125.988m
Tracking 0.09646

Belonging to SiSi:

Activation 4.41 -67.69%
RoF 2.9s -42.85%
Optimal 4503m -33.4%
Damage Modifier 4.91143631065 -50.51%
Falloff 16190m -40.32%
Tracking 0.126377480832 +31.01%

It's definitive: Neutron is broken XD

http://eveboard.com/pilot/Phoenix_Torp

Phoenix Torp
Almost Absolute
#1158 - 2011-11-15 15:15:39 UTC
Don't know if it's a bug in SiSi but clearing stats without no skills involved (EveMon and Market in SiSi) this are the new stats and the variation from Evemon:

Electron Blaster Cannon II
Capacitor 5.88 GJ -30%
Falloff 6000m SAME
Tracking 0.06 rad/sec +20%
RoF 4.5s SAME
DamageMod 2.205x +5%
Optimal 4800m SAME
CPU 44 tf -3
PG 1155 MW -12%

Ion Blaster Cannon II
Capacitor 9.8 GJ -30%
Falloff 8000m SAME
Tracking 0.0552 rad/sec +20%
RoF 6.75s SAME
DamageMod 3.54375x +5%
Optimal 6000m SAME
CPU 53 tf -3
PG 1617 MW -12%

Neutron Blaster Cannon II
Capacitor 12.74 GJ -30%
Falloff 10000m SAME
Tracking 0.05196 rad/sec 20%
RoF 7.88s SAME
DamageMod 4.41x +5%
Optimal 7200m SAME
CPU 58 tf -3
PG 2079 MW -12%

CCP don't read this thread. These were the initial changes that put in the Dev Blog. I would rechange it to a thread for sell our hybrid players.

http://eveboard.com/pilot/Phoenix_Torp

Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#1159 - 2011-11-15 17:15:46 UTC
Phoenix Torp wrote:
CCP don't read this thread. These were the initial changes that put in the Dev Blog. I would rechange it to a thread for sell our hybrid players.



It's always useful gallente skills for Angel ships Lol but yeah, hybrids still suck

-about hybrids skills, I have almost all perfect (spec at 4) - implants cover those small % difference and for sure give an excellent situation of this awesome hybrid rebalancing = crap
Rawls Canardly
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1160 - 2011-11-15 17:47:30 UTC
The only way I could get my brutix to kill anything was to fill my head with snakes. And then it would only get up to 2000m/s overheated. That should tell you something.