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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Doctor Tobias Funke
Perkone
Caldari State
#2281 - 2013-09-04 23:58:03 UTC
What next? Ships getting bonuses to rail/beam/arty/hml range and smartbomb cap use? Undisruptable, ewar immune, high mobility, long range battleships would be the kings of PVE while still being interesting for PVP without doubling up on the roles of webbing pirate battleships. These new changes make absolutely no sense.
ISD Flidais Asagiri
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#2282 - 2013-09-05 00:01:40 UTC
Greetings

This is an awesome discussion, lets keep it going with on topic posts and constructive feedback.

On On

ISD Flidais Asagiri Lt. Commander Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department
Shade Millith
Tactical Farmers.
Pandemic Horde
#2283 - 2013-09-05 00:04:56 UTC
Dolph Carebear wrote:
My $0.02 is that Bastion kind of sounds cool as a basic idea, but PVE definitely doesn't need more tank, and no RR means no PVP applicability. Now if it worked like siege on dreads, that'd be different... But that's just my own agenda. (At least I have one.)



The extra tank was what had gotten me so exited.

Rather than using a 1 low slot/4 midslot tank on a golem, I'd be able to use a 2 midslot tank for the same effect. Putting more Target Painters and Damage Mod.

Now it's losing the resists. And it's original tank boost bonus for a web? I think I might just stick with the Rattlesnake.



I agree that there needs to be a serious thought about what the heck this ship is supposed to do.
zbaaca
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
#2284 - 2013-09-05 00:07:26 UTC
ISD Flidais Asagiri wrote:
Greetings

This is an awesome discussion, lets keep it going with on topic posts and constructive feedback.

On On


lol Big smile there are 2.2k post of feedback from people who want good ships , not some freaky abdominations

Bugs are opportunities to cause unprecedented amounts of destruction. --Zorgn ♡♡♡

Darkwolf
#2285 - 2013-09-05 00:07:44 UTC
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
Darkwolf mate are you serious all you have to do is put 1x em hardener in to your mids and you've got like 60% global resist profile.....

Level 4 missions... if you fail so bad you need 80% resists on a TECH TWO RESISTS BATTLESHIP then you should just biomass, I'm not even joking. I run an RNI with 2x invul fields and have NEVER come close to losing it in a level 4.. because I don't suck at this game.


Yes, I am serious. I'm quite aware that you can shore up missing resistances with modules, and I'm also quite able to complete level 4's with whatever I wish when I care to. Your personal attacks are unwarranted.

The issue here is that T2 resists are being pushed as being better than 30% overall with the original Bastion module. They're not. Just adding together all the bonuses and calling it better is disingenuous and ignores the fact that certain hulls perform much better against their racial rat type than others when T2 resists are put into the equation.
Caleb Seremshur
Commando Guri
Guristas Pirates
#2286 - 2013-09-05 00:10:22 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
Darkwolf mate are you serious all you have to do is put 1x em hardener in to your mids and you've got like 60% global resist profile.....

Level 4 missions... if you fail so bad you need 80% resists on a TECH TWO RESISTS BATTLESHIP then you should just biomass, I'm not even joking. I run an RNI with 2x invul fields and have NEVER come close to losing it in a level 4.. because I don't suck at this game.

So basically waste more slots on tank, which ruins the point of using a marauder. That was the draw of a tanking bonus, to use fewer slots for tank. If a change negates that, it's not a good change for the ship so far as PvE is concerned.


You have got to be joking.

Wasting slots? It's one slot. Your average t1 ship fits 3-5? You really must be shitting me if you think that anyone will give you a ship that requires no tanking modules *at all* while being able to tank any level 4 (some of which can deal nearly 1k dps) without breaking a sweat? I don't bandy the term carebear around much but you sir clearly deserve the title if you do indeed such a severe degree of hand-holding and mollycoddling.

You want my RNI fit? I'll get it for you.

[Raven Navy Issue, Raven Navy Issue fit]

Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Drone Damage Amplifier II

Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Republic Fleet 100MN Afterburner
Large Micro Jump Drive
Large Shield Extender II
Republic Fleet Target Painter
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II

Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile

Large Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I
Large Core Defense Field Extender II
Large Ionic Field Projector I


Vespa II x5
Hammerhead II x5


Zainou 'Snapshot' Cruise Missiles CM-605
Zainou 'Deadeye' Missile Projection MP-705
Zainou 'Deadeye' Guided Missile Precision GP-805
Zainou 'Deadeye' Target Navigation Prediction TN-905
Zainou 'Deadeye' Rapid Launch RL-1005

Vitals are: 1200dps - 117km range
80k EHP
top speed of 460m/s + MJD

The thing you must understand is that over a certain level you don't even need to fit tanking modules. Not significantly anyway. While the fit I've posted is pretty much just for running missions it could serve as a guideline for how to fit a golem so here goes

Golem (odyssey 1.1)

[Golem, Golem solo stuff]

Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System

Large Micro Jump Drive
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Pith X-Type Large Shield Booster
Republic Fleet 100MN Afterburner
EM Ward Field II
Republic Fleet Target Painter
Republic Fleet Target Painter

Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Small Tractor Beam II
Small Tractor Beam II
Small Tractor Beam II

Large Core Defense Capacitor Safeguard II
Large Core Defense Capacitor Safeguard II


Hobgoblin II x5
Hammerhead II x5


Low-grade Crystal Alpha
Low-grade Crystal Beta
Low-grade Crystal Gamma
Low-grade Crystal Delta
Low-grade Crystal Epsilon
Low-grade Crystal Omega
Zainou 'Deadeye' Missile Projection MP-705
Zainou 'Deadeye' Guided Missile Precision GP-805
Zainou 'Deadeye' Target Navigation Prediction TN-905
Zainou 'Deadeye' Rapid Launch RL-1005

As you can plainly see only 2 tanking modules + rigs to extend your tanking cycle

vitals are 1100 dps
Top speed 360 + MJD
tank is 51k EHP, 220 sustained tank , 530 burst tank - 4min 30s cap life.

If you need more than this you are terrible at this game. Even without the crystals you should be FINE for any level 4 I can think of.
Grarr Dexx
Blue Canary
Watch This
#2287 - 2013-09-05 00:13:36 UTC
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
Darkwolf mate are you serious all you have to do is put 1x em hardener in to your mids and you've got like 60% global resist profile.....

Level 4 missions... if you fail so bad you need 80% resists on a TECH TWO RESISTS BATTLESHIP then you should just biomass, I'm not even joking. I run an RNI with 2x invul fields and have NEVER come close to losing it in a level 4.. because I don't suck at this game.

So basically waste more slots on tank, which ruins the point of using a marauder. That was the draw of a tanking bonus, to use fewer slots for tank. If a change negates that, it's not a good change for the ship so far as PvE is concerned.


You have got to be joking.

Wasting slots? It's one slot. Your average t1 ship fits 3-5? You really must be shitting me if you think that anyone will give you a ship that requires no tanking modules *at all* while being able to tank any level 4 (some of which can deal nearly 1k dps) without breaking a sweat? I don't bandy the term carebear around much but you sir clearly deserve the title if you do indeed such a severe degree of hand-holding and mollycoddling.

You want my RNI fit? I'll get it for you.

[Raven Navy Issue, Raven Navy Issue fit]

Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Drone Damage Amplifier II

Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Republic Fleet 100MN Afterburner
Large Micro Jump Drive
Large Shield Extender II
Republic Fleet Target Painter
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II

Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile

Large Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I
Large Core Defense Field Extender II
Large Ionic Field Projector I


Vespa II x5
Hammerhead II x5


Zainou 'Snapshot' Cruise Missiles CM-605
Zainou 'Deadeye' Missile Projection MP-705
Zainou 'Deadeye' Guided Missile Precision GP-805
Zainou 'Deadeye' Target Navigation Prediction TN-905
Zainou 'Deadeye' Rapid Launch RL-1005

Vitals are: 1200dps - 117km range
80k EHP
top speed of 460m/s + MJD

The thing you must understand is that over a certain level you don't even need to fit tanking modules. Not significantly anyway. While the fit I've posted is pretty much just for running missions it could serve as a guideline for how to fit a golem so here goes

Golem (odyssey 1.1)

[Golem, Golem solo stuff]

Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System

Large Micro Jump Drive
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Pith X-Type Large Shield Booster
Republic Fleet 100MN Afterburner
EM Ward Field II
Republic Fleet Target Painter
Republic Fleet Target Painter

Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Small Tractor Beam II
Small Tractor Beam II
Small Tractor Beam II

Large Core Defense Capacitor Safeguard II
Large Core Defense Capacitor Safeguard II


Hobgoblin II x5
Hammerhead II x5


Low-grade Crystal Alpha
Low-grade Crystal Beta
Low-grade Crystal Gamma
Low-grade Crystal Delta
Low-grade Crystal Epsilon
Low-grade Crystal Omega
Zainou 'Deadeye' Missile Projection MP-705
Zainou 'Deadeye' Guided Missile Precision GP-805
Zainou 'Deadeye' Target Navigation Prediction TN-905
Zainou 'Deadeye' Rapid Launch RL-1005

As you can plainly see only 2 tanking modules + rigs to extend your tanking cycle

vitals are 1100 dps
Top speed 360 + MJD
tank is 51k EHP, 220 sustained tank , 530 burst tank - 4min 30s cap life.

If you need more than this you are terrible at this game. Even without the crystals you should be FINE for any level 4 I can think of.


Now try level 5s. 2500 DPS EM/Therm and you're neuted dry permanently. Go.
Crysantos Callahan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#2288 - 2013-09-05 00:14:10 UTC
Why remove the local rep bonus from the marauders? You've compensated the loss of the 30% resists boost with t2 resists but thelsck of a rep bonus will still hurt a lot. Especially in ccomparison with pirate issue ships. Please find a decent clearcut role for each of these ships. If you want to make marauders the tanky bs, then leave the local rep boni and focus on pirate issues for more damage with less tank - the whole idea of rebalancing/tiericide was to rebalance and assign certain roles and tasks to ships. Please try to follow that through, not like the hac mess (where many of us fail to see what you wanted fo do with them).
Ravasta Helugo
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#2289 - 2013-09-05 00:20:24 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
The ships still need a way to not become a 1b+ KM every time they enter low sec.


Solve this and suddenly they'll sell like hot cakes...

+2 Warp strength.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2290 - 2013-09-05 00:22:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
Darkwolf mate are you serious all you have to do is put 1x em hardener in to your mids and you've got like 60% global resist profile.....

Level 4 missions... if you fail so bad you need 80% resists on a TECH TWO RESISTS BATTLESHIP then you should just biomass, I'm not even joking. I run an RNI with 2x invul fields and have NEVER come close to losing it in a level 4.. because I don't suck at this game.

So basically waste more slots on tank, which ruins the point of using a marauder. That was the draw of a tanking bonus, to use fewer slots for tank. If a change negates that, it's not a good change for the ship so far as PvE is concerned.


You have got to be joking.

Wasting slots? It's one slot. Your average t1 ship fits 3-5? You really must be shitting me if you think that anyone will give you a ship that requires no tanking modules *at all* while being able to tank any level 4 (some of which can deal nearly 1k dps) without breaking a sweat? I don't bandy the term carebear around much but you sir clearly deserve the title if you do indeed such a severe degree of hand-holding and mollycoddling.

You are completely missing the point. It's not about needing more, it's that the same was achievable with less under the original proposal. Bastion+tank bonus made 2 slots viable. You're using 5+ low grade crystals. That's part of the point.

What we're also saying is that this makes 2 of the 4 marauders objectively worse for PvE against their primary factions and despite your insults you haven't even attempted proving otherwise. Yes, there is a limit to what tank you need, but that doesn't in any way justify making half the affected ships weaker in their PvE use.
Ravasta Helugo
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#2291 - 2013-09-05 00:24:23 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
Darkwolf mate are you serious all you have to do is put 1x em hardener in to your mids and you've got like 60% global resist profile.....

Level 4 missions... if you fail so bad you need 80% resists on a TECH TWO RESISTS BATTLESHIP then you should just biomass, I'm not even joking. I run an RNI with 2x invul fields and have NEVER come close to losing it in a level 4.. because I don't suck at this game.

So basically waste more slots on tank, which ruins the point of using a marauder. That was the draw of a tanking bonus, to use fewer slots for tank. If a change negates that, it's not a good change for the ship so far as PvE is concerned.

Give this man a LIKE!
Alim Omaristos
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#2292 - 2013-09-05 00:25:06 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Time for another update.

We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:


  • Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.

  • We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.

  • Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.


I will change the OP to match the changes.


Well now I don't want one.

What's the point of reducing the tanking effectiveness in Bastion? If i'm sitting still I want to be as tanky as possible. Loosing the Armor repairer amount bonus on the paladin for a Web bonus? I wasn't going to fit a web to it either way, and i'll be hitting out of range for a web 90% of the time any way. I just don't see a need for a Web bonus, Frigates get to close, MJD away. If it's close enough for you to web you're probably already dead any way. Especially since the tanking bonuses are gone now.
MBizon Osis
Doomheim
#2293 - 2013-09-05 00:32:53 UTC  |  Edited by: MBizon Osis
Cade Windstalker

"Bastion is going to be divisive but overall it's a cool idea and fits with the class as its been in the past."

Bastion fits with nothing as it has to nerf the crap out of the 'host ship' in non-bastion mode, nothing has ever been like the bastion mod in the history of the game. And don't forget the MJD it's a magic combo we are are talking about here MJD+Bastion. This is a 100% NEW animal. And true dreads are "designed to lay siege to the largest of all structures in EVE" a feature the bastion is not supposed to be for.

So do it right and put this on its own hull and don't pretend it's a re-balance.
Siddicus
Nation of Sidd
#2294 - 2013-09-05 00:40:25 UTC
CCP Ytterbium Please make a new thread. This one is already at 115 pages, and the first 100 or so pages are now partially invalidated by new changes proposed and there are a whole host of other problems people have.
Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2295 - 2013-09-05 00:41:07 UTC
Patrice Macmahon wrote:

Triage carriers, from my understanding, are only really used in POS repair situation, or by logi carriers in large fleet fights. And super caps going into 'triage' do it when they are un-harassed and are POS bowling. No one actively commits a triaged capital to a live combat situation without the express mindset that the ship in question - is going to go boom.

W-space escalations use triaged/sieged capitals in some doctrines.
Grombutz
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2296 - 2013-09-05 00:47:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Grombutz
SO, lets sum this up:

Marauders gained T2 resists, while loosing the Rep-bonus.. Oke, both bonuses are roughly equal (active bonus is a little bit better), but the resists make them better with RR.

I think this is a gain.


Next point- the webs:

All marauders got webs now. Incredible for every turret marauder. You can zip arround with MJD, beef up the bastion, kill everything on approach with OMG-Range, and if things come close -- > web and destroy.

I think, this is a gain aswell --> except for the Golem. Turrets get their weak point tackled with webbing targets under their guns.

The Golem however has a lack of applying dps on fast targets over all ranges-- > while the web helps here below 12KM, it looses damage over all ranges, not just at 20km or below. I think the Golem deserves a range bonus on webs (30-35 KM maybe?) instead of the velocity modifer bonus because of this. Either this or a plain ExRad - bonus (but this would be just as booring as a CNR..).

If you are worried about the dps-application --> turrets get their falloff and optimal increased in bastion, which helps with applying dmg. Golem does not get this from bastion.


And after all, I think the concept is this:

A mobile plattform (MJD) combined with a beefy tank (100% rep-bonus), which has the tools to be a sniper (falloff/Optimal/range) or a brawler (in-your-face-tank + 80+% webs). I think this is a very interesting concept, as it will be a pain to stop this in small gangs, while still beeing viable in PvE.

As for large fleet fights and blobbing --> ofcourse marauders will be vulnerable to alpha, but most ships are anyway. And if you can't bring marauders into blob-fights.. who cares?


Just give the golem more range on webs, and we have a pretty solid rebalance.

thoughts?

Also:

This please:

Quote:
CCP Ytterbium Please make a new thread. This one is already at 115 pages, and the first 100 or so pages are now partially invalidated by new changes proposed and there are a whole host of other problems people have.
Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2297 - 2013-09-05 00:47:35 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:

Yes, the problem is that you're condemning two of the four to having to fit more mods against most rats, where as with T1 hulls it's much more even and entirely based on what resist type you're tanking on. If a Paladin wants to make use of its explosive resists it need to be fighting Rogue Drones (which pay poorly overall) or Angels where the two best damage types to deal are the ones it can't deal.

The Vargur is in a somewhat better place by being able to swap damage types fairly freely but still has to fit more mods against most rats than either the Gallente or Caldari do.


Of course, for w-space and PvP, where you want omni-tanks, the situation reverses itself, and the Paladin and Vargur have good resists, while the Kronos and Golem have bad ones with huge holes that have to be filled. Now, some might say that this is 'balance', but I don't think it's terribly balanced to be saying "PvP? Amarr or Minmater or GTFO" and "Ratting? Caldari or Gallente, forget the others". We get enough of that already, and given that there are only four marauders and so you have no choice of weapons except by moving races and that this means "lasers and guns are for PvP, missiles and hybrids are for PvE", this is bad design, IMO.
Doed
Tyrfing Industries
#2298 - 2013-09-05 00:48:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Doed
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
Darkwolf mate are you serious all you have to do is put 1x em hardener in to your mids and you've got like 60% global resist profile.....

Level 4 missions... if you fail so bad you need 80% resists on a TECH TWO RESISTS BATTLESHIP then you should just biomass, I'm not even joking. I run an RNI with 2x invul fields and have NEVER come close to losing it in a level 4.. because I don't suck at this game.

So basically waste more slots on tank, which ruins the point of using a marauder. That was the draw of a tanking bonus, to use fewer slots for tank. If a change negates that, it's not a good change for the ship so far as PvE is concerned.


You have got to be joking.

Wasting slots? It's one slot. Your average t1 ship fits 3-5? You really must be shitting me if you think that anyone will give you a ship that requires no tanking modules *at all* while being able to tank any level 4 (some of which can deal nearly 1k dps) without breaking a sweat? I don't bandy the term carebear around much but you sir clearly deserve the title if you do indeed such a severe degree of hand-holding and mollycoddling.

You want my RNI fit? I'll get it for you.

[Raven Navy Issue, Raven Navy Issue fit]

Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Drone Damage Amplifier II

Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Republic Fleet 100MN Afterburner
Large Micro Jump Drive
Large Shield Extender II
Republic Fleet Target Painter
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II

Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile

Large Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I
Large Core Defense Field Extender II
Large Ionic Field Projector I


Vespa II x5
Hammerhead II x5


Zainou 'Snapshot' Cruise Missiles CM-605
Zainou 'Deadeye' Missile Projection MP-705
Zainou 'Deadeye' Guided Missile Precision GP-805
Zainou 'Deadeye' Target Navigation Prediction TN-905
Zainou 'Deadeye' Rapid Launch RL-1005

Vitals are: 1200dps - 117km range
80k EHP
top speed of 460m/s + MJD

The thing you must understand is that over a certain level you don't even need to fit tanking modules. Not significantly anyway. While the fit I've posted is pretty much just for running missions it could serve as a guideline for how to fit a golem so here goes

Golem (odyssey 1.1)

[Golem, Golem solo stuff]

Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System

Large Micro Jump Drive
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Pith X-Type Large Shield Booster
Republic Fleet 100MN Afterburner
EM Ward Field II
Republic Fleet Target Painter
Republic Fleet Target Painter

Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Small Tractor Beam II
Small Tractor Beam II
Small Tractor Beam II

Large Core Defense Capacitor Safeguard II
Large Core Defense Capacitor Safeguard II


Hobgoblin II x5
Hammerhead II x5


Low-grade Crystal Alpha
Low-grade Crystal Beta
Low-grade Crystal Gamma
Low-grade Crystal Delta
Low-grade Crystal Epsilon
Low-grade Crystal Omega
Zainou 'Deadeye' Missile Projection MP-705
Zainou 'Deadeye' Guided Missile Precision GP-805
Zainou 'Deadeye' Target Navigation Prediction TN-905
Zainou 'Deadeye' Rapid Launch RL-1005

As you can plainly see only 2 tanking modules + rigs to extend your tanking cycle

vitals are 1100 dps
Top speed 360 + MJD
tank is 51k EHP, 220 sustained tank , 530 burst tank - 4min 30s cap life.

If you need more than this you are terrible at this game. Even without the crystals you should be FINE for any level 4 I can think of.


I'm sorry but both of these fits are absolutely terrible, esp the RNI one. damage application vs anything smaller than a BS is horrid. doesn't matter if you do 1100 dps if you can only apply half of it vs cruisers.

So before you start calling others terrible, get a clue on how to fit anti-red-square-ships yourself.


T2 resists is a good start, makes them somewhat useful out of Bastion aswell, but still no 200% range on tractors? this has been brought up so many times it's soon to hit a 5 digit number. At very least GIVE US A REPLY as to WHY you won't do this? atleast 150%??

Golem is still not very tempting with Torps, and CM's kinda get nerfed very hard vs npc defenders.

web bonus of all of them is abit meh tbh. Vargur tracks well enough to not need it for PVE(Pvp Marauders? lol. needs more changes to make them worthy here) Only useful for WH pve buisness, if you struggle with drones in lvl 4's you're just bad. Wh's can actually be harsh at times if solo.

And Golem quite franky does absolutely not want a tracking bonus. I'd even take missile hp over one on this ship, that's how bad it is. Yes it'd only affect CM's, but Torps are just lame, esp if you go immobile. (Yes I'm aware that they're able to reach about 75km with Javs but it's just not enough to compare to CM's overall)

That being said, web bonus on Paladin and Kronos is "ok" but I'd still actually have some sort of other bonus.

Hard to justify any extra bonus on Kronos though Paladin is easy, just add 37.5% tracking.
Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2299 - 2013-09-05 00:49:03 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:

BTW: me and a corp-mate bagged 2 tengus in a wormhole tonight - with a damnation and a hyperion. First blood for the new damnation \o/ - it worked well.

The Damnation is pretty shiny. We like the look of it for w-space fleets.
Caleb Seremshur
Commando Guri
Guristas Pirates
#2300 - 2013-09-05 00:49:09 UTC
Grarr Dexx wrote:
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
---- stuff
If you need more than this you are terrible at this game. Even without the crystals you should be FINE for any level 4 I can think of.


Now try level 5s. 2500 DPS EM/Therm and you're neuted dry permanently. Go.


Or I could just not. Level 5's are stupid for a variety reasons that are well documented, the fact that lowsec is retardedly broken as one of the top reasons.

Quote:
You are completely missing the point. It's not about needing more, it's that the same was achievable with less under the original proposal. Bastion+tank bonus made 2 slots viable. You're using 5+ low grade crystals. That's part of the point.

What we're also saying is that this makes 2 of the 4 marauders objectively worse for PvE against their primary factions and despite your insults you haven't even attempted proving otherwise. Yes, there is a limit to what tank you need, but that doesn't in any way justify making half the affected ships weaker in their PvE use.


No I'm not missing the point.

The point is: to gain an advantage you need to make a sacrifice. A one slot omni tanking module that is more powerful than t2 resists is stupid. That's why people hated the original design.

Lowgrade crystals, faction BCS, etc etc... yeah so what? It's a ship worth nearly a bil on its own. Without the LG's it tanks 390/160 which is still enough considering - and here's the kicker - that as you kill stuff the incoming dps decreases. The added bits to the fit aren't really that important, I used to run level 4's in a drake. If you need something that tanks as much dps as a dread to win at level 4's you have serious problems.

I *did* post a 2 slot tanking golem. If the basis of your complaint is that without bastion the marauders will now be worse than before well that's CCP's design failures not the actual modules fault huh..