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Doomsday going off inside atmosphere. What exactly happens?

First post
Author
Melana Emmagan
Holloway Heavy Industries
#1 - 2013-06-11 13:50:10 UTC
Hey

so, I was following the conversations of the fleet commanders in yesterdays live event, when this came up:

http://i.imgur.com/MjWpRtG.jpg

Quote:
...You'd rather have seen the destruction of all life on Caldari Prime? You know what happens when a doomsday goes off in atmosphere, right?


Well, no, actually we don't know what happens (apart from the "destruction of all life" part)
This raises a lot of questions for me :p

First, what exactly happens when a doomsday is fired at a planet.
Do they have the ability to blow chunks of the planet up?
How much firepower do they actually have on a planetary scale? (preferably in mega/gigatons or whatever the approprate unit is)
How much destruction is caused by the direct hit, what are the consequences (fallout, nuclear winter, etc)
Whats the difference between "precision" doomsdays (Amarr/Gallente) and missile based ones which could cover a large area on a planet (Caldari/Minmatar) when bombarding a planet?

And so many more question in my head, but I think those are the ones I'd like to get an answer to the most :D
Spurty
#2 - 2013-06-11 14:01:27 UTC
Amarr : Judgement : The ultimate expression of God's Divine wrath, this weapon projects a beam of the Lord's holy light, designed to put sinners in their proper place.

Caldari: Oblivion : Using a targeting and tracking control system more advanced than any other in existence, this weapon launches and controls a storm of missile fire capable of neutralizing almost any target.

Gallente : Aurora Omniae : By using reverse-engineered Sleeper technology and advances in focused magnetic fields, this weapon emits a beam of antimatter that is capable of obliterating nearly anything it touches.

Minmatar: Gjallarhorn : Righteous fury given form, this weapon system rains a firestorm of unmatched raw destruction upon its target.

Now add 'Air' (which Humans need to live) to each of the above and you are at least one step closer to the answer.

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And ships that sail the sea

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Melana Emmagan
Holloway Heavy Industries
#3 - 2013-06-11 14:36:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Melana Emmagan
*sigh* You don't get it.

I'm talking physics, mechanics, materials and so on. Not those vague descriptions which are pure propaganda and/or are made by somebody who probably doesn't know anything about weapons in the first place.

I heard CCP Falcon knows a lot about these kind of things :p

I should probably mention somewhere that this topic is highly about tech talk. Oh, there, I did it.
CCP Falcon
#4 - 2013-06-11 15:43:22 UTC

This is something I'd like to cover in Project Clockwork, which will be kicking off over the summer Smile

CCP Falcon || EVE Universe Community Manager || @CCP_Falcon

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Alain Colcer
Nadire Security Consultants
#5 - 2013-06-11 16:00:57 UTC
a old story arc saw the use of a Judgement device on the atmosphere of planet Reschard V.

The outcome, total anihilation, the entire planet got its atmosphere ignitied into a fireball that consumed oxygen and killed 99% of the population.

http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/planet-wide-explosion-strikes-reschard-v/
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Year_YC108 (check february)
http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/reschard-v-relief-convoy-destroyed/

curiously enough, these were archived as "eve online news", not world news.
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#6 - 2013-06-11 22:03:00 UTC
:-S

Bring back DEEEEP Space!

Melana Emmagan
Holloway Heavy Industries
#7 - 2013-06-12 09:27:29 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:

This is something I'd like to cover in Project Clockwork, which will be kicking off over the summer Smile



Yay!

I shall patiently await the beginning of "Project Clockwork" then. :)

@Alain Colcer: Thanks for the links, very useful material.
Sanadras Riahn
Riahn Perimeter Holdings
#8 - 2013-06-12 09:47:40 UTC
Well, I can't say anything for the missile based ones, but Aurora Ominae...

Considering it's a beam of concentrated anti-matter held in place by advanced magnetic fields, as soon the the anti-matter got OUTSIDE that field (i.e., finding it's target), the Matter/anti-matter annihilation would be immense. To put it into context, it only takes a thimble-full of anti-matter to destroy a city.

Tradition defines and shapes a person, but should be evaluated frequently; far too often does Tradition no longer help, but hobble a person and stunt their growth. Especially a Capsuleer.

Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#9 - 2013-06-13 01:52:59 UTC
Sanadras Riahn wrote:
Well, I can't say anything for the missile based ones, but Aurora Ominae...

Considering it's a beam of concentrated anti-matter held in place by advanced magnetic fields, as soon the the anti-matter got OUTSIDE that field (i.e., finding it's target), the Matter/anti-matter annihilation would be immense. To put it into context, it only takes a thimble-full of anti-matter to destroy a city.

From memory, so I do apologise if I'm wrong, but I found a site a while ago that listed amounts of anti matter relative to nuclear weapons. And the largest nuke ever built was about 1kg of Anti matter.
So while Antimatter is very destructive, it's not a case of 1 drop making everything go away.
Melana Emmagan
Holloway Heavy Industries
#10 - 2013-06-13 08:49:25 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:

From memory, so I do apologise if I'm wrong, but I found a site a while ago that listed amounts of anti matter relative to nuclear weapons. And the largest nuke ever built was about 1kg of Anti matter.
So while Antimatter is very destructive, it's not a case of 1 drop making everything go away.


Hmm. The biggest nuclear weapon ever built would be the Tsar Bomb (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsar_Bomba). Now a bomb of that size can level a city like Paris (see map in the article), and would cause massive nuclear fallout.

However, fireing a solid, visible stream of antimatter like the Gallente doomsday does would require tons (maybe even kilo/megatons) of Antimatter. At that level you could probably physically blow up a rather sizeable chunk of a planet.

I'm beginning to think the Gallente doomsday might be the most destructive one after all...

Jassmin Joy
Pulling The Plug
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#11 - 2013-06-13 18:43:43 UTC
Melana Emmagan wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:

From memory, so I do apologise if I'm wrong, but I found a site a while ago that listed amounts of anti matter relative to nuclear weapons. And the largest nuke ever built was about 1kg of Anti matter.
So while Antimatter is very destructive, it's not a case of 1 drop making everything go away.


Hmm. The biggest nuclear weapon ever built would be the Tsar Bomb (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsar_Bomba). Now a bomb of that size can level a city like Paris (see map in the article), and would cause massive nuclear fallout.

However, fireing a solid, visible stream of antimatter like the Gallente doomsday does would require tons (maybe even kilo/megatons) of Antimatter. At that level you could probably physically blow up a rather sizeable chunk of a planet.

I'm beginning to think the Gallente doomsday might be the most destructive one after all...



Not the most powerfull ever built, just the most powerfull ever detonated, but forgive me. i'm nitpicking.
Niko medes
Freeman Technologies
#12 - 2013-06-13 20:55:03 UTC
Melana Emmagan wrote:
[quote=Nevyn Auscent]

I'm beginning to think the Gallente doomsday might be the most destructive one after all...



I think you are correct.
Baren
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2013-06-13 21:30:59 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Sanadras Riahn wrote:
Well, I can't say anything for the missile based ones, but Aurora Ominae...

Considering it's a beam of concentrated anti-matter held in place by advanced magnetic fields, as soon the the anti-matter got OUTSIDE that field (i.e., finding it's target), the Matter/anti-matter annihilation would be immense. To put it into context, it only takes a thimble-full of anti-matter to destroy a city.

From memory, so I do apologise if I'm wrong, but I found a site a while ago that listed amounts of anti matter relative to nuclear weapons. And the largest nuke ever built was about 1kg of Anti matter.
So while Antimatter is very destructive, it's not a case of 1 drop making everything go away.


you have no idea what your talking about.. lol 1kg of anti matter.

do you realize 1 kg of ant matter would blow a chunk out of the earth.

He is a post from a artical by CERN(the company the has produce the most anti matter in the world:

There is no possibility to make antimatter bombs for the same reason you cannot use it to store energy: we can't accumulate enough of it at high enough density. (...) If we could assemble all the antimatter we've ever made at CERN and annihilate it with matter, we would have enough energy to light a single electric light bulb for a few minutes."[1], but this would be a considerable feat because the accumulated antimatter would weigh less than one billionth of a gram.
Aurora Fatalis
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2013-06-14 22:58:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Aurora Fatalis
57 MT Tsar Bomb
Approximately 30% more energy in the Tsar bomb than 1 kg of antimatter annihilating with 1 kg of matter, neglecting kinetic energy. If the Aurora Ominae accelerates the antimatter to near light-speed, like they do at CERN, the energy content can be arbitrarily big.

We can estimate the kinetic energy with the Capacitor use: 25 TJ, or half a Tsar Bomba. It doesn't really matter what's being launched - the thing being hit is at least being hit by half a Tsar Bomba. (Assuming no recoil and 100% efficiency)

Estimating the amount of antimatter is more difficult since the Aurora Ominae uses 50k x 0.15m^3 Oxygen Isotopes. There is no information given as to the mass, density or even number of isotopes being used, or what they're for. Where does this antimatter come from, and how is Oxygen-16 involved?

If we assume it's a case of time-reversing the Oxygen-16 into antimatter and launching it, we can attain a sensible upper bound by the lower bound of neutron star densities. This gives 0.8% moon masses worth of antimatter, more than enough to kill off an atmosphere at 10^20 times the yield of the Tsar Bomba. Of course, this density would make the sources of oxygen isotopes very dense, so this number is somewhat improbable - but possible, depending on the production and compression techniques used.

By comparison, by
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsar_Bomba
only 1.5*10^5 Tsar Bombas would be needed to totally destroy life on the surface of the Earth, meaning we could reduce the density of the isotopes by a factor 10^15 and still do it.

Comparing this to the density of water gives us that as long as the oxygen isotope cells have approximately the same average mass density as water, we could destroy life on Earth.

Quite feasible.

If Chribba told you not to trust him, would you?

Abadayos
Zebra Corp
Goonswarm Federation
#15 - 2013-06-28 07:06:10 UTC
As I have no references etc like some of you guys have, it would be safe to assume the conversion of the oxygen Isotopes would be used in a similar way they use materials at CERN: Accelerate them to insane speeds in a device to collide them together and thus generate the a-mat required. Granted I would say the time required to generate enough a-mat to be able to be projected as a viable 'beam' (I hate the idea of an a-mat beam, I would think more of it as a rapid fire of smaller pellets).

Another thing to bring to mind is the energy required to project the mag field to contain the antimatter without a single break would be immense and quite possible to be disrupted by debris in the way or an atmosphere/concentrated gasses (making it possibly no-viable in a nebula or other dense area like an Oort cloud). Sure you could go off and fire a 'hollow' laser beam to burn everything outside and using the mag field in teh hollow to protect the a-mat pellets/beam.

Just a few thoughts.
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#16 - 2013-09-04 23:43:05 UTC
My expectations - localized devastation, little impact 100km away, different and slightly more damaging effects (tsunamis, localized ocean boiling) if aimed at liquid.

I look at it this way.

A doomsday is enough to destroy a carrier, a ship that's around 2-3 kilometres on a side, and enough to put a big dent in a titan (10-15km long). To 'destroy' a carrier, all that is needed is to cause its structural integrity to fail to the extent that the ship's contents are vented into space.

I'll assume that the mostly tritanium construction of spaceships makes them a hundred times the strength of ground buildings. As shockwaves from explosions dissipate according to an inverse square law, this means that the damage taken by a ground structure 100-150km away should be comparable to the damage taken by a titan (strucutral integrity not threatened, but actual damage done), and at ~30km, akin to the damage a carrier suffers (structural holes of significant size, igniting fires, etc).

In other words - worse than an RL nuclear weapon but not by much.

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Caviar Liberta
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2013-09-06 17:21:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Caviar Liberta
Baren wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Sanadras Riahn wrote:
Well, I can't say anything for the missile based ones, but Aurora Ominae...

Considering it's a beam of concentrated anti-matter held in place by advanced magnetic fields, as soon the the anti-matter got OUTSIDE that field (i.e., finding it's target), the Matter/anti-matter annihilation would be immense. To put it into context, it only takes a thimble-full of anti-matter to destroy a city.

From memory, so I do apologise if I'm wrong, but I found a site a while ago that listed amounts of anti matter relative to nuclear weapons. And the largest nuke ever built was about 1kg of Anti matter.
So while Antimatter is very destructive, it's not a case of 1 drop making everything go away.


you have no idea what your talking about.. lol 1kg of anti matter.

do you realize 1 kg of ant matter would blow a chunk out of the earth.

He is a post from a artical by CERN(the company the has produce the most anti matter in the world:

There is no possibility to make antimatter bombs for the same reason you cannot use it to store energy: we can't accumulate enough of it at high enough density. (...) If we could assemble all the antimatter we've ever made at CERN and annihilate it with matter, we would have enough energy to light a single electric light bulb for a few minutes."[1], but this would be a considerable feat because the accumulated antimatter would weigh less than one billionth of a gram.


Antimatter (anti particle)coming in contact with normal matter causes a 1:1 destruction. However in in this destruction you are talking about a large release of energy caused by the conservation of energy. The fireworks would begin at the very moment the antiparticle stream hits the atmospher and it would have to be a long duration beam to reach the surface.
Andreus Ixiris
Duty.
WE FORM V0LTA
#18 - 2013-09-09 18:53:45 UTC
Reschard V is the only known instance of a Doomsday Device being used against a habitable planet. The result was that the planet quickly ceased to be inhabitable and the atmospheric disruption was so severe that rescue attempts could not even be attempted for more than half a year.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#19 - 2013-09-09 21:13:37 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Reschard V is the only known instance of a Doomsday Device being used against a habitable planet. The result was that the planet quickly ceased to be inhabitable and the atmospheric disruption was so severe that rescue attempts could not even be attempted for more than half a year.

I'd note that unless I've missed something, no-one knows exactly what happened there. It is theorised that the Amarr DD was used, however it could have been multiple strikes from DD's, not just a single strike also.

For the person talking about 1kg of antimatter blowing chunks out of the earth. The largest Nukes put out more energy than 1kg of Antimatter. Stop getting distracted by all the bad movies where 1g of it destroys entire planets to dust, it's powerful sure, but not 'that' powerful.
Caviar Liberta
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2013-09-10 18:45:48 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Reschard V is the only known instance of a Doomsday Device being used against a habitable planet. The result was that the planet quickly ceased to be inhabitable and the atmospheric disruption was so severe that rescue attempts could not even be attempted for more than half a year.

I'd note that unless I've missed something, no-one knows exactly what happened there. It is theorised that the Amarr DD was used, however it could have been multiple strikes from DD's, not just a single strike also.

For the person talking about 1kg of antimatter blowing chunks out of the earth. The largest Nukes put out more energy than 1kg of Antimatter. Stop getting distracted by all the bad movies where 1g of it destroys entire planets to dust, it's powerful sure, but not 'that' powerful.


Numbers:

U235 generates 82.07 TJ/kg <--converted from mol to kg

antimatter distruction generates 180 petajoules/kg
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