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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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DTson Gauur
Underground-Operators
#2061 - 2013-09-04 18:20:10 UTC
If CCP really wants to see these hulls more in PVP, make them worth the roughly ONE AND HALF BILLION price tag. Otherwise the only time you'll see them in the dog eat cat world of current PVP is when the ultrarich nullsec alliances decide to see if they're even remotely usable.

As for the web bonus instead of tank bonus, it's utter garbage when the bastion mode is quite obviously aimed at SNIPING!

My suggestion: Instead for web strength, give them IN BASTION mode 500% web range bonus.
Marc McIntyre Crendraven
Brave Empire Inc.
Brave United
#2062 - 2013-09-04 18:21:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Marc McIntyre Crendraven
Since marauders now will use webifiers how about giving them their speed back, doesn't really fit to have such a slow battleship make use of webs which require you to be within 10 kilometers of your target. Just sayin

EDIT; just did some research, the marauders are now the slowest battleships in eve if these changes go through(i think maelstrom and abaddon are actually true slowest). CCP, i appreciate the rebalancing you are doing but taking a ship that by definition should be reasonably fast, making it the slowest , and then adding a bonus that is for faster ships (web) is very counter production, it's like adding a turret tracking bonus to a ship that primarily uses missiles. Please fix this!!!!

Eat Lead!!! Err....Antimatter...whatever!
Big rEy
Ro Maniacs
Fragsters
#2063 - 2013-09-04 18:21:36 UTC
zbaaca wrote:
2 CCP Ytterbium
stop screwing golem . now it become piece of sh*t

True, I've stopped training for one when I read the las post from Ytterbium Straight I will stay with my RNI.

I Don't always PvP, but when I do...

I Don't always PvP, but when I do...
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#2064 - 2013-09-04 18:21:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
on a sidenote about webs .... besides minmatar normally only faction ships have them so it seems very homogenized and quite un racial like ...
that and minnie bonus is normally range on recons and specialist e-war ships... are these now some strange e-war- combat- mini dread combo? its not very specialist anymore rather a strange combo of many specializations.

Also TP is an e-war mod even caldari e-war ships don't have a TP bonus so why should the Golem?

perhaps the caldari e-war ships should have TP as a secondary bonus instead of being the only one with one e-war type

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Zeus Maximo
Mentally Assured Destruction
The Pursuit of Happiness
#2065 - 2013-09-04 18:22:23 UTC
Ravasta Helugo wrote:
Zeus Maximo wrote:

fit propulsion

...


Fill the resist hole like you would with any other ship..... Buy modules


The new Marauders are better because we can fit modules to compensate for the nerfs... With all those extra slots they didn't give us.

The Version 1 Bastion was great because it allowed you to use more lows for tracking/damage mods without hurting survivability (Armor) and more projection/application mods without hurting survivability (shield). Now we need to fit MORE tank in the lows (to compensate for 37.5% tank nerf) and more prop in the mid (just to make these ships flyable.) Both of these mods will come at the expense of Tracking, Projection and Damage mods. Slowing down mission running, just to get the ship up to it's current survivability.


But with bastion mode you now get a 100% tank BUFF

100% is greater than 37.5%

If you want a better tank, use bastion mode.

"It is not possible either to trick or escape the mind of Zeus."

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Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2066 - 2013-09-04 18:23:34 UTC
Ravasta Helugo wrote:
Battle Cube wrote:
Silvetica Dian wrote:
some of us liked the 1st iteration more :(


the new version is almost identical to the original - the bastion mode still behaves the same still having high resists and great local tank. Only now, the regular mode isn't nerfed to compensate. Furthermore, in situations where you would attempt to leave bastion mode in order to get reped, your resists don't go down, meaning its a whole lot more possible to accept reps.

Before, pre-bastion your tank was the exact same as it is now. Same mods=same stats. Post bastion you got a flat 30% resist and 100% tank boost.

Now, pre-bastion you get a 37.5% tank reduction, with a very modest (and situationally useless) EHP boost. In bastion the tank is boosted to 45% higher than the current non-bastion amount.

That's a significant difference.


It's also an utter lie. Your T2 resists give you an effective local rep bonus as well as an EHP bonus as well as a bonus to the efficiency of inbound RR.

You do remember all the rage about gallente ships having a crappy local tank bonus that should be replaced with a resistance bonus?

This is giving marauders what gallente pilots can only dream of. Good reps AND good inbound reps.

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Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#2067 - 2013-09-04 18:25:29 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:

Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module.

This just destroyed the usefulness of the bastion module and cut a huge amount of the ships tankability.

CCP Ytterbium wrote:

We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level.
Without that 7.5% to rep amount there tank while in bastion mode get cut down even further. As far as stasis webs go, they lacked on range more than strength IMO. A 10% to range will be more effective.
CCP Ytterbium wrote:

Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.

So they can now be bounced around like a pinball while in bastion mode, another fail for the bastion module.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Grarr Dexx
Blue Canary
Watch This
#2068 - 2013-09-04 18:26:15 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Flidais Asagiri
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Time for another update.

We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:


  • Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.

  • We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.

  • Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.


I will change the OP to match the changes.


You give them an MJD bonus so they can pull range, and here's a bonus that'll only work at, at best, 18km. Is there any thought that goes into these changes at all?

**** EDITED FOR CONTENT (ISD Flidais) ****
Ranamar
Nobody in Local
Deepwater Hooligans
#2069 - 2013-09-04 18:26:30 UTC
Ravasta Helugo wrote:
Battle Cube wrote:
Silvetica Dian wrote:
some of us liked the 1st iteration more :(


the new version is almost identical to the original - the bastion mode still behaves the same still having high resists and great local tank. Only now, the regular mode isn't nerfed to compensate. Furthermore, in situations where you would attempt to leave bastion mode in order to get reped, your resists don't go down, meaning its a whole lot more possible to accept reps.

Before, pre-bastion your tank was the exact same as it is now. Same mods=same stats. Post bastion you got a flat 30% resist and 100% tank boost.

Now, pre-bastion you get a 37.5% tank reduction, with a very modest (and situationally useless) EHP boost. In bastion the tank is boosted to 45% higher than the current non-bastion amount.

That's a significant difference.


To be fair, the increase in native resists somewhat makes up for the on-hull tanking nerf, given that the old T2 resists for it were 25%/12.5%, and the new ones are going to be 50/25 or 75/50 or something like that. That's going to give the Vargur and the Paladin really entertaining resist profiles.

@CCP Ytterbium: can you post the new resist profiles for the Marauders?
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#2070 - 2013-09-04 18:27:15 UTC
Arya Greywolf wrote:
CCP Ytterbium Please respond. The reasoning still stands seeing as both Vargur and Paladin have the same web bonus now, essentially making it a wash.


Autocannons are weaker than lasers, they do less base damage and in addition you're going to be into falloff to some degree, reducing damage by even more. The optimal bonus is also far stronger than the falloff bonus for the same reason.
Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#2071 - 2013-09-04 18:28:37 UTC
Zeus Maximo wrote:
But with bastion mode you now get a 100% tank BUFF

100% is greater than 37.5%

If you want a better tank, use bastion mode.
Please don't post anymore. Prior to these changes today you got 100% from Bastion AND 37.5% FROM THE HULL.

137.5% is greater than 100%.

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Siginek
Newbie Friendly Industries
CeskoSlovenska Aliance
#2072 - 2013-09-04 18:29:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Siginek
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Time for another update.

Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.

We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.


whats the point of this whole topic? nerf marauders for PvE to zero and than come with glorious module that will save them? if so u r going right way ... it would be better to leave marauders as they are now and cancel this whole bastion and all changes that came with it, it will just make them useless for both pve and pvp and ppl will only be angry cause they have good ships now and after winter expansion they will get useless brick for 1B+ isk

... just leave them their active tanking bonuses as they are, marauders were good PvE ships and i dont see reason to make them useless in PvE unless unless they use module which they shouldnt even need
... if someone want 90% web ship let them buy vindi, it has same price but much more dps ... why would u make all ships same? Just leave them their differences ... marauders - Solo PvE king as they are and should stay ... pirate BS - Fleet pve/pvp ships ... the way it is and it should stay ... if someone come with some PvP tactic with current marauders let them do so, but dont ruin whole good ship class for few players ...
zbaaca
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
#2073 - 2013-09-04 18:30:24 UTC
i just wonder does Ytterbium really understand what he is doin' or just randomly switching bonuses and whatches reaction of people .
if yes please explain me that idiotic web bonus added to missile boat that have already that dumb legacy TP bonus

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Gabriel Karade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#2074 - 2013-09-04 18:31:25 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Time for another update.

We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:


  • Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.

  • We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.

  • Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.


I will change the OP to match the changes.
Faith restored. Cool

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Ravasta Helugo
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#2075 - 2013-09-04 18:32:30 UTC
Ranamar wrote:
Ravasta Helugo wrote:
Battle Cube wrote:
Silvetica Dian wrote:
some of us liked the 1st iteration more :(


the new version is almost identical to the original - the bastion mode still behaves the same still having high resists and great local tank. Only now, the regular mode isn't nerfed to compensate. Furthermore, in situations where you would attempt to leave bastion mode in order to get reped, your resists don't go down, meaning its a whole lot more possible to accept reps.

Before, pre-bastion your tank was the exact same as it is now. Same mods=same stats. Post bastion you got a flat 30% resist and 100% tank boost.

Now, pre-bastion you get a 37.5% tank reduction, with a very modest (and situationally useless) EHP boost. In bastion the tank is boosted to 45% higher than the current non-bastion amount.

That's a significant difference.


To be fair, the increase in native resists somewhat makes up for the on-hull tanking nerf, given that the old T2 resists for it were 25%/12.5%, and the new ones are going to be 50/25 or 75/50 or something like that. That's going to give the Vargur and the Paladin really entertaining resist profiles.

@CCP Ytterbium: can you post the new resist profiles for the Marauders?

The new resists on the Paladin:

Armor EM Damage Resistance : 50%
Armor Explosive Damage Resistance : 80%
Armor Kinetic Damage Resistance : 62.5%
Armor Thermal Damage Resistance : 35%

Note that EM and Thermal are remaining the exact same as current. The Kin helps slightly with Gurista. Exp helps significantly with Angels. But that's all she wrote.

Well over 50% of missions in Amarr space are Blood or Sansha, and this helps **** all.
Zeus Maximo
Mentally Assured Destruction
The Pursuit of Happiness
#2076 - 2013-09-04 18:32:39 UTC
Maximus Andendare wrote:
Zeus Maximo wrote:
But with bastion mode you now get a 100% tank BUFF

100% is greater than 37.5%

If you want a better tank, use bastion mode.
Please don't post anymore. Prior to these changes today you got 100% from Bastion AND 37.5% FROM THE HULL.

137.5% is greater than 100%.



On the live server they only have 37.5%

With these new changes it will be 100% with bastion

100% is greater than 37.5%

You got a massive buff!!! You mad that it almost got tripled? and not quadrupled?

"It is not possible either to trick or escape the mind of Zeus."

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Ravasta Helugo
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#2077 - 2013-09-04 18:36:00 UTC
Zeus Maximo wrote:


But with bastion mode you now get a 100% tank BUFF

100% is greater than 37.5%

If you want a better tank, use bastion mode.


Out of Bastion, my tank is 37.5% weaker. In Bastion it is 45% stronger, but with a host of penalties.

Under the old changes, my pre-Bastion tank was the same as now. In Bastion my tank was 140% stronger.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#2078 - 2013-09-04 18:37:01 UTC
Ravasta Helugo wrote:
Battle Cube wrote:
Silvetica Dian wrote:
some of us liked the 1st iteration more :(


the new version is almost identical to the original - the bastion mode still behaves the same still having high resists and great local tank. Only now, the regular mode isn't nerfed to compensate. Furthermore, in situations where you would attempt to leave bastion mode in order to get reped, your resists don't go down, meaning its a whole lot more possible to accept reps.

Before, pre-bastion your tank was the exact same as it is now. Same mods=same stats. Post bastion you got a flat 30% resist and 100% tank boost.

Now, pre-bastion you get a 37.5% tank reduction, with a very modest (and situationally useless) EHP boost. In bastion the tank is boosted to 45% higher than the current non-bastion amount.

That's a significant difference.

It hurts the tank a bit more than you think.

Tank modules
1x LAAR
DC
RAH
1x ENAM II
Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I

Old Bastion Module Rep = 1873.35 EHP/s
New Bastion Module Rep = 1241.48 EHP/s

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#2079 - 2013-09-04 18:37:59 UTC
Zeus Maximo wrote:
Maximus Andendare wrote:
Zeus Maximo wrote:
But with bastion mode you now get a 100% tank BUFF

100% is greater than 37.5%

If you want a better tank, use bastion mode.
Please don't post anymore. Prior to these changes today you got 100% from Bastion AND 37.5% FROM THE HULL.

137.5% is greater than 100%.



On the live server they only have 37.5%

With these new changes it will be 100% with bastion

100% is greater than 37.5%

You got a massive buff!!! You mad that it almost got tripled? and not quadrupled?

Are you ******* stupid? Bastion 1.0 gave 100% to repair amount, so if you want to split hairs--and it's obvious that I'm going to have to spell it out like I'm talking to a child--then you got 100% bonus from whatever your hull repaired, which was BUFFED BY 37.5% FROM THE HULL. After these changes, THE HULLS DO NOT RECEIVE A BONUS INNATELY. Thus, THERE IS A NET NERF, because they do NOT get 37.5% BONUS TO LOCAL REPAIR.

IN BOTH CASES, BASTION WAS PROVIDING 100% BONUS TO REPAIR. Bastion 1.0 gave 100% PLUS 37.5% from the hull. Bastion 2.0 NO HULL BONUS.

It's like talking to my 4 year old.

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Arya Greywolf
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2080 - 2013-09-04 18:38:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Arya Greywolf
Xequecal wrote:
Arya Greywolf wrote:
CCP Ytterbium Please respond. The reasoning still stands seeing as both Vargur and Paladin have the same web bonus now, essentially making it a wash.


Autocannons are weaker than lasers, they do less base damage and in addition you're going to be into falloff to some degree, reducing damage by even more. The optimal bonus is also far stronger than the falloff bonus for the same reason.


The difference in damage is irrelevant to my point about the Vargur being better able to manage closer/smaller targets: Vargur is faster and more agile and has better tracking and so it can fight off these targets better. The difference in the damage between auto cannons and lasers makes no matter if you can't even hit the target (see: Vargur's +tracking bonus and auto cannon tracking).

Thus, it's very baffling why the Paladin has 25mb drone bandwidth whereas the Vargur has 50mb bandwidth.