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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Zeus Maximo
Mentally Assured Destruction
The Pursuit of Happiness
#2021 - 2013-09-04 17:07:38 UTC
PVE people need to understand that these new changes Balance the marauder update to fit PVPers too.

The first update only helped PVE engagements.

This second one now benefits PVPers and still gives PVErs a boost.

"It is not possible either to trick or escape the mind of Zeus."

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Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#2022 - 2013-09-04 17:09:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Katrina Oniseki
Web bonus and MJD+Projection bonus... What? Why bother extending our engagement range if you want us to use webs anyways?

I don't understand why people think adding those T2 resists together somehow makes it better than the 30% unstacking. Yes, if you add all the percentages together you get a higher number, but that seems like a ******** way of measuring it. Formerly you had an undeniably strong and flexible tank across every resist in shields/armor/hull at the same time without needing to refit.

You're stronger against two resists now, but you're weaker in the other two. It's still a buff to the current tank, but it is not 'better' than the 30% unstacking.

Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong here, because by God I want to be wrong right now. I wish I could understand how T2 resists is better in application than the first iteration.

Golem is now expected to fit web, tank, TP, cap booster, and prop all in the same set of mids? Seems a bit overcrowded in there.

Katrina Oniseki
Aeril Malkyre
Knights of the Ouroboros
#2023 - 2013-09-04 17:09:31 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:

Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.
That's great to hear.
CCP Ytterbium wrote:

We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons.
The ship is now loaded with bonuses that apply at wildly different ranges (webs at 10-12km, tractors at 40-48km, 100km MJD's, thus negating the need for the web bonus and overshooting the tractor bonus). Some will say versatility, others will say lack of focus. This is Typhoon Syndrome. I don't even know how to make suggestions anymore. You're clearly dead set on this Bastion on the Marauders, and it's two steps forward, two steps back for the hulls themselves.

For everyone's sake: take a step back. More Grid, CPU, capacitor, T2 resists, range, scan res, less sig radius: all good changes. Extra mass, lower HP, lower speed, smaller drone bay, removing tank bonuses: bad changes. Making bad changes just to introduce a new module that kind of makes up for them is just ugly.
Ravasta Helugo
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#2024 - 2013-09-04 17:11:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Ravasta Helugo
*Cracks Knuckles*
Zeus Maximo wrote:

Your tank will be greater than what it is now as the bastion bonus is huge. Therefore you will be able to fend off more when the time comes.

45% more active tank (over current amounts), zero buffer tank for going into bastion. That is paltry against PvP gangs and Gank squads.
Quote:

Most pirate bs's are 1 billion isk whereas the marauders are much cheaper. Your resists will be greater than what they are now and the new web bonus will allow you to make up for your smaller drone bay. 80% web bonus, or whatever it is, will allow most guns to track and any size drone to hit perfectly. We are talking about applied dps here.

Pirate BS's range from 450 million to 1 billion. Marauders are around 1.25 billion each. And why should I have to wait until something is 12km away before I can track it. Putting on my (admittedly rather shabby) PvP hat, how the hell am I supposed to get within 12km of anything when my base speed is 100m/s?

Quote:
You still get the tracking and range bonus with the bastion mode. If you don't want to use the web bonus for PVE then don't put a web on your ship. Silly complaint here. PVPers WILL use the web bonus. The range bonus will be great when in bastion mode so you can shoot stuff that your gang has tackled a few k away outside of point/web range.

There is no tracking bonus in Bastion. There SHOULD be, especially now. But there isn't.

Quote:
The new t2 resists are pretty big EHP buff.

Not. Big EHP buff against explosive damage. Nothing against EM or Thermal. Hey! Guess what the rats I always fight use?

And don't forget the HP reductions each ship is getting.

These changes suck. The failure of your best attempt to justify them is a testament to that.
Ravasta Helugo
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#2025 - 2013-09-04 17:15:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Ravasta Helugo
Zeus Maximo wrote:
PVE people need to understand that these new changes Balance the marauder update to fit PVPers too.

The first update only helped PVE engagements.

This second one now benefits PVPers and still gives PVErs a boost.

These (new) changes are huge nerf to the PvE capabilities of this ship. There is simply no way around pointing that out.

Not only are Pirate Battleships now indisputably superior (much higher DPS, base speed, almost exact same tank) but many Navy Battleships are too. All for EWAR immunity that frankly I only need once every five or six missions if that.

If these changes go through as currently proposed, I'll be flying a Nightmare instead of a Paladin. It will hit harder, tank more, move faster and have more drones.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#2026 - 2013-09-04 17:18:14 UTC
isn't it great that CCP don't even ask us if we would like such drastic changes they just make them Shocked

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2027 - 2013-09-04 17:21:00 UTC
Xequecal wrote:
You can actually use the Paladin in wormholes now without immobilizing yourself. Sleeper BS missiles have an exp velocity of 60m/sec and do pure exp/kin damage so with an AB fitted and Amarr racial resists they basically do no damage whatsoever. Sleepless Upholders, the only BS that aren't favored towards exp/kin damage, have 0.017 tracking, you can actually speed tank their lasers in an ABing BS.

It's perfectly viable to run C3s in a 1250 DPS setup with three heat sinks, AB, web, two tracking computers, and a 4-slot tank. You don't need to root yourself so you're not much more vulnerable to ganks than a T3 is.


Agree. It seems to me to be a sensible evolution in the right direction. Broadening the appeal of the marauder in more kinds of space.

No, you no longer have immobile mega-tank, but you now have excellent normal tank, mobility, anti-support ability AND the ability to receive remote reps efficiently.

Marauders like this could, you know... maraud!

+1

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Zeus Maximo
Mentally Assured Destruction
The Pursuit of Happiness
#2028 - 2013-09-04 17:21:06 UTC
Comparing the old PVE marauders to these changes: what is worse?

smaller drone bay?

"It is not possible either to trick or escape the mind of Zeus."

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Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#2029 - 2013-09-04 17:21:24 UTC
Ravasta Helugo wrote:
45% more active tank (over current amounts), zero buffer tank for going into bastion. That is paltry against PvP gangs and Gank squads.


Your "buffer" is better than it was with the 1.0 version, as rep bonuses don't count as buffer and 125% T2 resists are better than 120% buffer.

Quote:
Not. Big EHP buff against explosive damage. Nothing against EM or Thermal. Hey! Guess what the rats I always fight use?

And don't forget the HP reductions each ship is getting.

These changes suck. The failure of your best attempt to justify them is a testament to that.


Ok, and you're also forgetting the optimal range bonus, the gigantic capacitor bonus, (Paladin has 12,500 capacitor!) fitting bonuses, and the fact that you can actually field a superb tank without rooting yourself, thus allowing the ship to be used in null and wormholes with the same degree of safety as every other ship, except it can salvage and loot the sites while running them AND has an MJD for added safety so it's immune to ganking if the ganker doesn't have a scram.

You are aware that 200m/hour from nullsec anoms is possible with these, right? All that free NPC BS loot and salvage adds up fast.
Ravasta Helugo
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#2030 - 2013-09-04 17:21:58 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
isn't it great that CCP don't even ask us if we would like such drastic changes they just make them Shocked

I'm going to be fair to CCP: They asked for feedback, and well over half of it was people bitching about their incursion webs and T2 Resists.

Many of us who supported the changes just tipped the hat and walked away from the thread. You can't blame them for thinking this change was going to be popular.

But seriously, CCP: The first idea was way, way better. Bring back the old Bastion.
Zeus Maximo
Mentally Assured Destruction
The Pursuit of Happiness
#2031 - 2013-09-04 17:22:26 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
isn't it great that CCP don't even ask us if we would like such drastic changes they just make them Shocked


I approve of these changes :)

"It is not possible either to trick or escape the mind of Zeus."

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Shinzhi Xadi
Doomheim
#2032 - 2013-09-04 17:27:03 UTC
So, they are going to finally give us T2 resist instead of the 30% across the board boost from bastion. Its a pity that since I use my paladin for pve in missions, and 90% of the time I'm fighting sansha/blood raiders, those T2 resist buffs are totally USELESS.

If they declare 90% webs overpowered, then why leave them on the serpentis ships??

The 2nd iteration, i can live with, but I will be honest, removing 37.5% rep bonus on the paladin is very upsetting. I know its made up for when bastion'd, but what about when moving around? I really don't like them removing that.

DId CCP ever consider giving the marauders FLAT resists like that gift battlecruiser has??

The paladin is my main pve ship, has been for long time, and these changes are really stressing me out.

Mac Pro dual 6-core Xeon 3.06ghz, 24gig ecc ram, EVGA GTX 680 Mac Edition, Intel SSD, OS X Yosemite and Windows 8.1 Pro.
Ravasta Helugo
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#2033 - 2013-09-04 17:32:44 UTC
Quote:
Your "buffer" is better than it was with the 1.0 version, as rep bonuses don't count as buffer and 125% T2 resists are better than 120% buffer.

Someone is forgetting the loss of the 30% omni resists of 1.0...

Quote:
Ok, and you're also forgetting the optimal range bonus, the gigantic capacitor bonus, (Paladin has 12,500 capacitor!) fitting bonuses, and the fact that you can actually field a superb tank without rooting yourself, thus allowing the ship to be used in null and wormholes with the same degree of safety as every other ship, except it can salvage and loot the sites while running them AND has an MJD for added safety so it's immune to ganking if the ganker doesn't have a scram.


Yes, it can finally project damage just as well as an Apocalypse. And yes, the new cap is boss. I like MJD's. I even wrote a guide on how to triangulate using them. However:

In return: It's mobility and tank have both been significantly nerfed. As a direct consequence, it's survivability and Isk/Hour have been nerfed. To me, a PvE mission runner, these changes are much worse than the original iteration.

An immobile tank I wouldn't need if you weren't gimping my current one, and lacking any true burst survivability (read: ganks) paired with an absolutely pointless web bonus. It just... sucks.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#2034 - 2013-09-04 17:34:16 UTC
webs need a nerf 60% is strong too begin with then giving serpentis and blood raider 90% webs are way OP..
what's the point of increasing mobility across the board whilst leaving webs so strong it seems counter productive.

T2 resists need sorting out... they need to be more omni/ fill gaping holes better otherwise they don't necessarily help the ship..
Minmatar always getting more overall resists is just unbalanced and smacks of favoritism towards them..

T2 ships don't need to have T2 resists either they are meant to be specialised at something but adding really strong resists seems to be more of a HAC thing you know resilience ..

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Ravasta Helugo
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#2035 - 2013-09-04 17:35:21 UTC
Zeus Maximo wrote:
Comparing the old PVE marauders to these changes: what is worse?

smaller drone bay?

37.5% tank nerf. 50% drone bandwidth nerf. 25% speed nerf. 50% mass nerf. 10% HP nerf. 25% web nerf.
Big rEy
Ro Maniacs
Fragsters
#2036 - 2013-09-04 17:42:02 UTC
Ravasta Helugo wrote:

37.5% tank nerf. 50% drone bandwidth nerf. 25% speed nerf. 50% mass nerf. 10% HP nerf. 25% web nerf.

Yeah...and they wanted to make them better. lol Straight

I Don't always PvP, but when I do...

I Don't always PvP, but when I do...
TheFace Asano
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2037 - 2013-09-04 17:42:54 UTC
Zeus Maximo wrote:
TheFace Asano wrote:

Now there isn't much use for the bastion module with this iteration. You still have a large increase to local tank, but you won't be able to fend off much before dying.


Your tank will be greater than what it is now as the bastion bonus is huge. Therefore you will be able to fend off more when the time comes.

TheFace Asano wrote:

-1 for me, the original proposal looked better. I think most people would just use the pirate bs instead for PVE, the utility highs and tracking are not worth the risk of 1 billion + isk for just the local tank boost which is unecessary for most normal situations anyway, and you won't be able to fend off a gang for long without the immense gain of resists. They are now all too slow or don't have enough drone bay to PVE competitively with the Pirate BS either.


Most pirate bs's are 1 billion isk whereas the marauders are much cheaper. Your resists will be greater than what they are now and the new web bonus will allow you to make up for your smaller drone bay. 80% web bonus, or whatever it is, will allow most guns to track and any size drone to hit perfectly. We are talking about applied dps here.

TheFace Asano wrote:

The web bonus is counter productive for the bastion mode as well as the mode gives you increased range. Whats the use of the range bonus if the ship has to be much closer to use its web? This proposal will keep the ships shelved for everything I think, and those who do use them will only use the bastion module to see the cool animation or AFTER having already been locked down by a gang to slow down getting killed.


You still get the tracking and range bonus with the bastion mode. If you don't want to use the web bonus for PVE then don't put a web on your ship. Silly complaint here. PVPers WILL use the web bonus. The range bonus will be great when in bastion mode so you can shoot stuff that your gang has tackled a few k away outside of point/web range.

TheFace Asano wrote:

The original was pretty close, just needed some tweaking and less ability to be ganked while solo.


The new t2 resists are pretty big EHP buff.


fitted these ships are over 1 billion and the hulls close to a billion.

The web bonus is within 12km, there is no tracking bonus during bastion mode, outside of web range, the range bonus the bastion module gives is mute and no longer of any use. The web bonus is cool, but doesn't fit with the Bastion Module itself. Also in a gang your probably not going to use the bastion module without a group of these together, then again you would just jump them in to point blank, bastion, web then wreak havoc. A damage bonus/ tracking bonus in bastion mode makes more sense than the range with the current iteration, however places the ships more conflict with the better tracking the Pirate BS already have.

-37.5 boost and -30 resists on shield / armor/hull is better than the t2 resists when bastion is on and gave the ships a weakness while off.


Cade Windstalker
#2038 - 2013-09-04 17:43:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Cade Windstalker
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Time for another update.

We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:


  • Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.

  • We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.

  • Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.


I will change the OP to match the changes.


Welp, apparently I shouldn't play poker. I'm going to love playing around with these bonuses but I think it's a bit OP. Lol

Well, except for the mass penalty being removed, was kinda figuring the Bump-Battleship from hell wasn't going to last given the ability to instantly crash a C6 with ~3-4 of these. If it had gone live it would have been removed the first time someone sent a Freighter flying 100km off the 4-4 undock.
Shinzhi Xadi
Doomheim
#2039 - 2013-09-04 17:44:10 UTC
Ravasta Helugo wrote:
Zeus Maximo wrote:
Comparing the old PVE marauders to these changes: what is worse?

smaller drone bay?

37.5% tank nerf. 50% drone bandwidth nerf. 25% speed nerf. 50% mass nerf. 10% HP nerf. 25% web nerf.


outside of bastion mode: This ^

especially if your in amarr space doing L4 missiions or sites, and fighting EM/Therm enemies. The T2 resist give nothing to EM/Therm.

Mac Pro dual 6-core Xeon 3.06ghz, 24gig ecc ram, EVGA GTX 680 Mac Edition, Intel SSD, OS X Yosemite and Windows 8.1 Pro.
Zeus Maximo
Mentally Assured Destruction
The Pursuit of Happiness
#2040 - 2013-09-04 17:47:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Zeus Maximo
Ravasta Helugo wrote:
Zeus Maximo wrote:
Comparing the old PVE marauders to these changes: what is worse?

smaller drone bay?

37.5% tank nerf.

50% drone bandwidth nerf.

25% speed nerf.

50% mass nerf.

10% HP nerf.

25% web nerf.


You get a 100% rep amount boost

You gained a 80% web for slowing down smaller targets

Old kronos mass = 101,800,000 kg
New kronos mass = 113,160,000 kg

fit propulsion

all marauders get a web bonus

New is obviously better than the old Blink


Shinzhi Xadi wrote:


outside of bastion mode: This ^

especially if your in amarr space doing L4 missiions or sites, and fighting EM/Therm enemies. The T2 resist give nothing to EM/Therm.


Fill the resist hole like you would with any other ship..... Buy modules

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