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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2001 - 2013-09-04 16:43:01 UTC
Zeus Maximo wrote:

Marauders need:

sensor strength buff
paladin/kronos need 90% web back
t2 resists since they are "advanced battleships"
larger drone bay if possible


Marauders don't need:

More repping power
Smaller drone bay
To be immobile
MJD bonus


My reasoning for 90% web:
Paladin: Large lasers can't track unless target is slowed down up close. Armor ships are also slower and can't keep up
Golem: Missiles always track and have distance, shield ship = faster
Vargur: Great tracking and distance, shield ship = faster
Kronos: Blasters have horrible range and need ship locked down. Armor ships are also slower and can't keep up

Never mind that the Kronos is going to be about as fast as a Golem, and 'always track' is not the same as 'do enough damage to matter', this whole post is just a silly "I need buffs" post.
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#2002 - 2013-09-04 16:45:21 UTC
Ravasta Helugo wrote:
You need to pair that analysis with the 37.5% rep reduction.

Also the omni-taking nature of the first iteration mod lent it's self much better to mission running amongst different pirate factions.


Eh, just fit an AB and move around a bit. 400 m/sec movement is worth way more than 37.5% repping against terrible NPC tracking and 60 m/sec explosion velocity missiles.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2003 - 2013-09-04 16:45:38 UTC
[quote=Makoto Priano

If we're losing resists from the Bastion, is it possible that we could get a damage application bonus? For instance, a tracking and explosion radius buff would be brilliant. It'd give a clear application advantage to the Marauders in Bastion, while not buffing their DPS.[/quote]


You did, the web.
Ravasta Helugo
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#2004 - 2013-09-04 16:46:12 UTC
Zeus Maximo wrote:
These changes make every ship balanced for both PVE and PVP

Quote:

Your rep power in Bastion mode is still greater than what they are now

It's 37.5% less out of Bastion. This translates to 45% boost over my current tank in Bastion.
Quote:
Your resists will be higher than what they are now

Significantly less than what they would have been, and EHP is essentially a wash due to HP reductions.
Quote:
All turrets and missiles will be able to hit small npcs due to web bonus(this solves smaller drone bay)

Slightly nerfed from what it currently is, and at the price of the Rep bonus.

Stop pretending this is a good deal for PvE players just because you finally got a ****** T2 PvP Battleship.
TheFace Asano
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2005 - 2013-09-04 16:47:24 UTC
The Golem should also have the painter bonus removed or the web. Both seems OP. I think I will just stick with my navy raven or just not use the bastion module.

Give back the speed these had before, or hell make them on par with Attack BS in speed.
Edora Madullier
French Kiss Singularity
#2006 - 2013-09-04 16:49:56 UTC
Zeus Maximo wrote:
These changes make every ship balanced for both PVE and PVP
For PVE:
Your resists will be higher than what they are now


Only vs two types of damage. A single minor one (Kinetic) for the mission/plex Paladin, since you don't want to run against Angel Cartel and their explosive damage with your lasers anyway, thus making the explosive resistance bonus kind of useless for this role.


I was excited with these upcoming changes, but right now feel kind of disappointed. What's the point of a web strength bonus taking into account the MJD bonus? Those are really not meant to be together, imo.

Whiners won, I guess...
Ager Agemo
Rainbow Ponies Incorporated
#2007 - 2013-09-04 16:50:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Ager Agemo
New fit for a golem!

Highs
4 Torp launchers,
2 Energy Disruptors
1 NOS
Bastion Mode.


Mids
T2 Invul
T2 Em Hardener
XL ASB
TP
MWD
SCRAM
WEB

Lows
BCU
BCU
BCU
DAMAGE CONTROL

Rigs
2x Rigor Rig

See the problem? the MJD does not works here... it needs a MWD speed bonus! not a MJD time bonus...
and the target painters could be replaced by a native exp radius bonus! thus making it the most missile focused ship ever without Adding DPS you get more application.
Ravasta Helugo
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#2008 - 2013-09-04 16:51:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Ravasta Helugo
Xequecal wrote:
Ravasta Helugo wrote:
You need to pair that analysis with the 37.5% rep reduction.

Also the omni-taking nature of the first iteration mod lent it's self much better to mission running amongst different pirate factions.


Eh, just fit an AB and move around a bit. 400 m/sec movement is worth way more than 37.5% repping against terrible NPC tracking and 60 m/sec explosion velocity missiles.

These ships now move 100 m/s. With AB they can go 250 m/s. And that's at the cost of fitting the MJD, unless you want to waste a mid. In other words, they nerfed THAT form of tanking as well.

Quote:
You did, the web.

Oh, spare me.

A web to apply damage within 12 km, when my main weapon system has an optimal/falloff out to 100 km.

Incursion whining killed what would have been an amazing change to Marauders. Bring back the original iteration, please!
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#2009 - 2013-09-04 16:55:11 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Flidais Asagiri
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Time for another update.
We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:


-1. *** Non-constructive Post *** Post should have a point, not just a rant. ( ISD Flidais )

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Big rEy
Ro Maniacs
Fragsters
#2010 - 2013-09-04 16:55:53 UTC
Ravasta Helugo wrote:

Oh, spare me.

A web to apply damage within 12 km, when my main weapon system has an optimal/falloff out to 100 km.

Incursion whining killed what would have been an amazing change to Marauders. Bring back the original iteration, please!

This^

I Don't always PvP, but when I do...

I Don't always PvP, but when I do...
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2011 - 2013-09-04 16:56:47 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Time for another update.
We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:


-1. THESE SUCK.
These changes have gone full r e t a r d.


ROFL. Another capsuleer expresses himself with eloquent reasoned argument.

Big smile

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Edora Madullier
French Kiss Singularity
#2012 - 2013-09-04 17:00:44 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Time for another update.
We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:


-1. THESE SUCK.
These changes have gone full r e t a r d.


ROFL. Another capsuleer expresses himself with eloquent reasoned argument.

Big smile


Well it seems to work, since the first iteration has been destroyed because of such posts from whiners. Gotta use the weapons you know are effective.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#2013 - 2013-09-04 17:00:47 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
ROFL. Another capsuleer expresses himself with eloquent reasoned argument.
Big smile


And that was the third edit before I posted, too. ;)

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
DTson Gauur
Underground-Operators
#2014 - 2013-09-04 17:01:06 UTC
The first iteration had me excited... This new one is total bull, who needs a web anyway when NOTHING survives to web range? My Paladin even as it currently is on TQ can kill pretty much everything with _TACH BEAMS_ before the rats get closer than 40km. Usually they die before they can get up to speed.

Only things that actually need droned to death are the Mk2 web drones, because they got devhaxx and fly to you @5km/s, and whne mission has them, those are the last ones to take out anyway.
Zeus Maximo
Mentally Assured Destruction
The Pursuit of Happiness
#2015 - 2013-09-04 17:02:39 UTC
TheFace Asano wrote:

Now there isn't much use for the bastion module with this iteration. You still have a large increase to local tank, but you won't be able to fend off much before dying.


Your tank will be greater than what it is now as the bastion bonus is huge. Therefore you will be able to fend off more when the time comes.

TheFace Asano wrote:

-1 for me, the original proposal looked better. I think most people would just use the pirate bs instead for PVE, the utility highs and tracking are not worth the risk of 1 billion + isk for just the local tank boost which is unecessary for most normal situations anyway, and you won't be able to fend off a gang for long without the immense gain of resists. They are now all too slow or don't have enough drone bay to PVE competitively with the Pirate BS either.


Most pirate bs's are 1 billion isk whereas the marauders are much cheaper. Your resists will be greater than what they are now and the new web bonus will allow you to make up for your smaller drone bay. 80% web bonus, or whatever it is, will allow most guns to track and any size drone to hit perfectly. We are talking about applied dps here.

TheFace Asano wrote:

The web bonus is counter productive for the bastion mode as well as the mode gives you increased range. Whats the use of the range bonus if the ship has to be much closer to use its web? This proposal will keep the ships shelved for everything I think, and those who do use them will only use the bastion module to see the cool animation or AFTER having already been locked down by a gang to slow down getting killed.


You still get the tracking and range bonus with the bastion mode. If you don't want to use the web bonus for PVE then don't put a web on your ship. Silly complaint here. PVPers WILL use the web bonus. The range bonus will be great when in bastion mode so you can shoot stuff that your gang has tackled a few k away outside of point/web range.

TheFace Asano wrote:

The original was pretty close, just needed some tweaking and less ability to be ganked while solo.


The new t2 resists are pretty big EHP buff.

"It is not possible either to trick or escape the mind of Zeus."

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Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2016 - 2013-09-04 17:02:40 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Makoto Priano wrote:


If we're losing resists from the Bastion, is it possible that we could get a damage application bonus? For instance, a tracking and explosion radius buff would be brilliant. It'd give a clear application advantage to the Marauders in Bastion, while not buffing their DPS.



You did, the web.

No, silly. Applied DPS buffs don't count. Only raw, paper, DPS counts.
Ravasta Helugo
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#2017 - 2013-09-04 17:03:01 UTC
Edora Madullier wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Time for another update.
We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:


-1. THESE SUCK.
These changes have gone full r e t a r d.


ROFL. Another capsuleer expresses himself with eloquent reasoned argument.

Big smile


Well it seems to work, since the first iteration has been destroyed because of such posts from whiners. Gotta use the weapons you know are effective.

^ This
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2018 - 2013-09-04 17:03:29 UTC
Ravasta Helugo wrote:

A web to apply damage within 12 km, when my main weapon system has an optimal/falloff out to 100 km.

Incursion whining killed what would have been an amazing change to Marauders. Bring back the original iteration, please!



If you are shooting 100km its not like you nee tracking killer.

Unless you are one of those missile diehards.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#2019 - 2013-09-04 17:05:59 UTC
DTson Gauur wrote:
The first iteration had me excited... This new one is total bull, who needs a web anyway when NOTHING survives to web range? My Paladin even as it currently is on TQ can kill pretty much everything with _TACH BEAMS_ before the rats get closer than 40km. Usually they die before they can get up to speed.

Only things that actually need droned to death are the Mk2 web drones, because they got devhaxx and fly to you @5km/s, and whne mission has them, those are the last ones to take out anyway.


The webs aren't need that much for PVE with the original idea but without some kind of web bonus for PVP they are restricted to very niche useage.

I will say again the original idea is a good one being hamstrung by being shoe horned onto the existing marauders.
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#2020 - 2013-09-04 17:06:20 UTC
You can actually use the Paladin in wormholes now without immobilizing yourself. Sleeper BS missiles have an exp velocity of 60m/sec and do pure exp/kin damage so with an AB fitted and Amarr racial resists they basically do no damage whatsoever. Sleepless Upholders, the only BS that aren't favored towards exp/kin damage, have 0.017 tracking, you can actually speed tank their lasers in an ABing BS.

It's perfectly viable to run C3s in a 1250 DPS setup with three heat sinks, AB, web, two tracking computers, and a 4-slot tank. You don't need to root yourself so you're not much more vulnerable to ganks than a T3 is.