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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Vayn Baxtor
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1841 - 2013-09-03 23:04:47 UTC
Quote:
A Marauder is a T2 specialized ship. Specialized in doing PVE, in PVE should it be "King of the hill" not more, not less. Not every ship must be balanced or raped to be in a PVP role, which never was planed for (sensor strenght). Most users of these ship, use them as a PVE platform. Only a few used them at PVP in a niche PVP (WH Kronos).

So balance them as a PVE monster, but not with a bastion mode. A ship hull with these pricetag, should stay for what the name Marauder say. I must not the fastet one, not the one with the most ehp or the best tank. It should be the best in the niche it's designed for. The Marauder stays for: PVE.

Every ship class has it's role, i would enjoy to fly my Marauders with my friends and i don't like the idea, to use an other ship for a PVE incursion with my friends. I don't want to hear: bring a Pirate BS to the incursion, we can't remote rep you anymore.

If you want to PVP use an other ship class, there are enough out there. Pirate ships i have heard, should be good at it or designed for? Or are the Pirate BS better for PVE than a dedicated ship?


Another thing to add:
Thing is that PVE ships always bleed into PVP.
I am just saying it might be advisable to keep them niche or else we will have more PVE kings bringing imbalance to PVP - To a point how T3 can dominate the field once somebody loads a fleet full of them. T3 should be balanced some time around so there is no reason to sidetrack on that subject.

But things really need to be thought through. Aside to the literal meaning of Tiericide, I was under the impression Tiericide should not only make unpopular ships more popular but also balance it in a way that we don't just people grabbing the same ships just because they facemelt stuff with ease.

Using tablet, typoes are common and I'm not going to fix them all.

TZeer
BURN EDEN
No Therapy
#1842 - 2013-09-03 23:06:02 UTC
- A battleship
- Costs $$$$$
- Market it as a tool for smaller fights and gangs
- Give it a module that locks it into place for 60 sec
- Scan time of <5 sec with probes....
- Single frig can easily move 100km in 20 sec

Yepp, yeah, I can really see this ship work great....

Roll
Baggo Hammers
#1843 - 2013-09-03 23:07:02 UTC
I look forward to these changes. Almost a "Transformers" quality. Now drones that can be transformed!

If you don't know where you're going, any road will take you there.
Deacon Abox
Black Eagle5
#1844 - 2013-09-03 23:25:11 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Oh yes, and forgot to mention with a proper deadspace X-L shield booster and a good tank, a single Vargur or Golem can tank the first wave of a Vanguard Incursion by itself. Sure, damage isn't that good when you do (you can't use cap booster, go through charges too fast, thus have to go for cap stable Evil), but the fact remains it's still possible. Even discussing that very fact with other designers as it most likely is far too OP for PvE.

Can you do the same with a deadspace or officer LAR fit Kronos or Paladin?

Otherwise, just more evidence of shield dominanceStraight What else is new?Roll

CCP, there are off buttons for ship explosions, missile effects, turret effects, etc. "Immersion" does not seem to be harmed by those. So, [u]please[/u] give us a persisting off button for the jump gate and autoscan visuals.

Cade Windstalker
#1845 - 2013-09-03 23:25:40 UTC
TZeer wrote:
- A battleship
- Costs $$$$$
- Market it as a tool for smaller fights and gangs
- Give it a module that locks it into place for 60 sec
- Scan time of <5 sec with probes....
- Single frig can easily move 100km in 20 sec

Yepp, yeah, I can really see this ship work great....

Roll


PvE focused. Niche PvP use. Not a zomg-god ship.

Working as intended.

Vayn Baxtor wrote:
Another thing to add:
Thing is that PVE ships always bleed into PVP.
I am just saying it might be advisable to keep them niche or else we will have more PVE kings bringing imbalance to PVP - To a point how T3 can dominate the field once somebody loads a fleet full of them. T3 should be balanced some time around so there is no reason to sidetrack on that subject.

But things really need to be thought through. Aside to the literal meaning of Tiericide, I was under the impression Tiericide should not only make unpopular ships more popular but also balance it in a way that we don't just people grabbing the same ships just because they facemelt stuff with ease.


Couple of points:

T3s were never intended to be PvE ships, the player base looked at them initially and said "SP loss!?!?! No way anyone would PvP in that!!!". Then they realized that they didn't die very often or easily and that you could mitigate the SP loss by only training the skills to 4 along with a few other things and T3 fleets happened.

You are indeed correct about what the tiericide is supposed to accomplish and is indeed accomplishing. However, some people in this thread still want every ship to have the best DPS/tank/ect Straight

Baggo Hammers wrote:
I look forward to these changes. Almost a "Transformers" quality. Now drones that can be transformed!


What, the little X's turn into +'s or something? Shocked
Pattern Clarc
Citeregis
#1846 - 2013-09-03 23:38:33 UTC
It totally breaks PvE, and I wonder what happens if you use this in the next AT....

It's neither balanced, nor useful in PvP - which is what all ships in this PVP FOCUSED game should be based around.
Not working as intended.

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction
Cade Windstalker
#1847 - 2013-09-03 23:46:37 UTC
Pattern Clarc wrote:
It totally breaks PvE, and I wonder what happens if you use this in the next AT....

It's neither balanced, nor useful in PvP - which is what all ships in this PVP FOCUSED game should be based around.
Not working as intended.


Did you even read the OP? The entire point of these is a PvE focus with niche PvP application Roll
Zeus Maximo
Mentally Assured Destruction
The Pursuit of Happiness
#1848 - 2013-09-03 23:54:55 UTC
Silvetica Dian wrote:
Zeus Maximo wrote:
[quote=Onictus][quote=Zeus Maximo]

What is easier to hit? A moving target or a stationary one?

.


It depends if you are moving or not as what matters is transversal and that number is the same for you and the stationary target. Assuming someone orbiting then it is likely that they maintain a higher transversal on a stationary target than a moving one and thus the stationary target is harder to hit.
Also i read quite a lot of your posts and they are pretty much wrong in every way possible.



Obviously transversal matters.... I stated that because a marauder will be a sitting duck at 0 speed meaning it will be easier to hit. Doesn't that make perfect sense in pvp? Are you that guy that sits at zero speed during a fight? Hell, you should do that with an actual dread on field.

Am I wrong here too? Sorry I see the bigger picture and don't get personal :) I want these things fixed in the right manner!

"It is not possible either to trick or escape the mind of Zeus."

U-MAD Membership Recruitment

PoH Corporation Recruitment
stoicfaux
#1849 - 2013-09-04 00:01:47 UTC
marVLs wrote:
But why just why those tank bonuses in bastion? For what they are?


  • LVL4? they don't need more tank


CCP Ytterbium You forget that doing over 9000! missions over and over again is boring, so players want to do them with minimal effort, why should i jump in pockets, get reduction in damage because of falloff etc. when i can go with RNI that will aplly more damage and better and in more relaxing way that Marauders.

Because you can fit a cheap Pithum C medium shield booster on a Vargur or Golem and basically perma-boost your way through missions? Less micromanagement, greatly reduced fitting, etc.

As for the RNI, with the Golem, you can fit two hydraulic bay thrusters and never have to volley count again. Plus ~15km/s missiles
really screws up NPC defenders. You're immune to defenders at 70+km (maybe closer) and within about two seconds of flight time, their effective hit rate drops roughly in half or less. That extra 25% missile (18km/s missiles) could result in even screwier NPC defender behavior.


Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Ravasta Helugo
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1850 - 2013-09-04 00:05:39 UTC
I love the changes, with the exception of maybe adding a few points of CPU to the Paladin.

But I'm still going to dig in my heels and request an application buff to pair with the projection buff. I want to effectively engage close targets as well. The prospect, as was earlier described, of jumping into an NPC Swarm is pretty cool... but for a Tach Pali requires a bit more tracking.
Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1851 - 2013-09-04 00:08:06 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:

Maybe it's the lack of versatility? A tengu is good at more stuff, so why not just invest once? Perhaps it's just a mindset thing. People just don't think to do it. Speak to most people and they'll say, "battleships don't work in wormholes". But I use them. The fact is that they do work.

They certainly work in fleets for C5 anom running (non-escalation). We find them a really good option for pilots without the skills for T3s or command ships, once they've grown out of battlecruisers.
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1852 - 2013-09-04 00:13:09 UTC
Deacon Abox wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Oh yes, and forgot to mention with a proper deadspace X-L shield booster and a good tank, a single Vargur or Golem can tank the first wave of a Vanguard Incursion by itself. Sure, damage isn't that good when you do (you can't use cap booster, go through charges too fast, thus have to go for cap stable Evil), but the fact remains it's still possible. Even discussing that very fact with other designers as it most likely is far too OP for PvE.

Can you do the same with a deadspace or officer LAR fit Kronos or Paladin?

Otherwise, just more evidence of shield dominanceStraight What else is new?Roll


You can rep a similar amount of DPS, the only problem is armor reppers are backloaded so you might explode before you actually rep any damage at all.
Pattern Clarc
Citeregis
#1853 - 2013-09-04 00:13:20 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Pattern Clarc wrote:
It totally breaks PvE, and I wonder what happens if you use this in the next AT....

It's neither balanced, nor useful in PvP - which is what all ships in this PVP FOCUSED game should be based around.
Not working as intended.


Did you even read the OP? The entire point of these is a PvE focus with niche PvP application Roll

I read the OP, I disagree with the entire premise of prescribing tools and items for PvE and PvP, 1) PvE shouldn't be so far removed from PvP to be necessary to have different modules and tools, 2) A sandbox shouldn't be prescriptive in the devision between one or the other.

That's why maurders kind of sucked, PvE focused ships no one gave any ***** about. What they've gone and done is neither balanced sensibly for PvE or otherwise, it's just dumb.

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction
Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1854 - 2013-09-04 00:22:07 UTC
Akvi Raiku wrote:
I think it is not good to leave only 5 lightdrones at the same time as ship totally immobilized.
75m3 is better, but b\w still can be 25Mb\s.
Other way..
Ok, maybe it's a variant to use a large neutralizers against fast targets, but.. CCP should research the idea to replace bonus for tractor beams with the bonus for range of energy neutralizers (only in bastion mode, only on paladin for ex) and with bonus for stasis webs' factor (only in bastion mode, only on kronos for ex). It will be very nice bonus change since bastion don't raise dps.
So we'll get 2 marodeurs with more-pvp-specialization. Golem and Vargur still may have the bonus for tractors (pve orientation).

Thus further reinforcing the 'armour is for PvP, shields are for PvE' effect that the low-mid slot distribution and fitting encourages. I do not think that this is a good idea.
M1k3y Koontz
Speaker for the Dead
Shadow Cartel
#1855 - 2013-09-04 00:27:39 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Javius Rong wrote:
The more I have thought about this the more I think CCP needs to do an HAC and come up with a version 2 proposal as this one still doesn't make sense.

So I want to sit still for 60 seconds in a 2billion+ ship??? Maybe the hi-sec carebears but I see no real use for 0.0 PvE or PvP.


Now a T2 resist BS with high close range damage (not projection) and some maneuverability. That might actually be useful. Maybe these should be turned into Dread killers and given a Nuet and sig radius bonus with some other draw back.


You just made more pirate battleships with more tank.


As well as ECM immunity, a jump drive bonus (which I agree doesn't quite fit, unless you MJD away from the gang and let the enemy stream toward you one at a time) and a range bonus.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
Cade Windstalker
#1856 - 2013-09-04 00:32:05 UTC
Pattern Clarc wrote:
I read the OP, I disagree with the entire premise of prescribing tools and items for PvE and PvP, 1) PvE shouldn't be so far removed from PvP to be necessary to have different modules and tools, 2) A sandbox shouldn't be prescriptive in the devision between one or the other.

That's why maurders kind of sucked, PvE focused ships no one gave any ***** about. What they've gone and done is neither balanced sensibly for PvE or otherwise, it's just dumb.


That is your opinion, you are entitled to it. Personally I'm rather intrigued and kind of looking forward to Bastion mode and not having to worry much about tank in Level 4s.

Marauders, on the other hand, sucked because their disadvantages out-weighed their advantages for PvE or PvP and because the Pirate Battleships ended up stepping all over them in too many ways to count.

I am personally of the opinion that anything that's viable for either PvE or PvP will find uses in the other, more or less without exception now that we have everything from solo missions to 60 man fleet incursions.

I would, however, be a little disturbed if CCP either gave these full T2 resists as some have been suggesting, or made them out-DPS Pirate Battleships under any circumstances. The first leads to half-million+ EHP Battleship hulls that won't die and the second leads to power-creep. (really they're both power-creep, the first is just concerning in a specific way).

Finally, mission running is one of the most common activities in Eve. Pretty much everyone does it at some point or another and many make a career of it. What they do with the ISK they make from it is another thing entirely but they still make their isk doing missions. Supporting this with a ship that is exceptionally good at missions is not a bad thing, despite your misgivings toward a "PvE focused ship in a PvP focused game".
M1k3y Koontz
Speaker for the Dead
Shadow Cartel
#1857 - 2013-09-04 00:33:44 UTC  |  Edited by: M1k3y Koontz
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
my challenge to all the forum warriors now is to provide me an example of why I would fly a new marauder over a t1 or pirate ship.

Please consider: solo vs fleet comp
cost
tank and dps
utility

for advanced posters:
reasons to fly this in a nullsec/wormhole
actual willingness to engage a target


Challengeaccepted.jpg

[ Vargur, Because F*** the system! ]

800mm Repeating Autocannon II
800mm Repeating Autocannon II
800mm Repeating Autocannon II
800mm Repeating Autocannon II
Bastion Module
[Utility Slot]
[Utility Slot]
[Utility Slot]

Micro Jump Drive
Republic Fleet Warp Disruptor
X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster
X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster
Shield Boost Amp
Shield Boost Amp

Damage Control II
Gyrostab II
Gyrostab II
Gyrostab II
Co-Processor


About 1000 DPS, about 4500 DPS tank with LG crystals and standard blue pill with one ASB, EWar proof, essentially neut proof, can only be killed by dreadnoughts or time (run out of cap boosters)


I believe I've made a point? If you're going to use a T1 its because of cost, and if you're going to use a Pirate VS its either a Mach for bumping, a Vindy for the web, or something absurd that tanks like a boss.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1858 - 2013-09-04 00:37:26 UTC
Aeril Malkyre wrote:

As it stands, this is an awesome ideagasm in need of a home. Nothing about the Marauder hulls (attack BS's), their abilities, or their description screams 'immobile brick'. This shows up in the fact that they all had to be HP, speed, drone and mass altered to offset this new module. That's indicative of cramming in functionality they're not built for, crowding out what they were trying to be good at.

The Marauders are not especially fast ships. The Golem and Paladin are slower than the base battleship hull, the Kronos is faster than the Mega but slower than the Navy Mega. Even the Vargur is only the same speed as the Tempest FI (and very slightly faster than a basic Tempest), and thus slower than a Typhoon FI (and the same speed as the base Typhoon). Marauders are not good at being fast, it's not their niche, and there's no reason to push them that way, given that the faction attack BSes are already filling that role. Making the Marauders all about applied damage and giving them a super-tank option makes them comfortably different from the navy/fleet faction battleships, especially as they have the bonus to MJD use to give them a special sort of mobility.
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1859 - 2013-09-04 00:39:36 UTC
They will be good at PVE, great in fact every mission runners dream.

They are however bad for PVE as content, here is a ship that breaks all game design possibilities.

Immune to E-war, no range problems can hit NPCs anywhere.

Can travel great distances quickly.

Massive tank makes omni tank easy, no need to even think about NPC damage profiles or tailoring ship fittings.

NPC ships don't scram so you can't even be pointed.

How do you make PVE that is challenging and interesting for these ships? How do you encourage diverse ship use when one ship is so strong?

This is not what PVE needs, it needs balanced communal content.
Ganthrithor
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1860 - 2013-09-04 00:45:05 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:

That is your opinion, you are entitled to it. Personally I'm rather intrigued and kind of looking forward to Bastion mode and not having to worry much about tank in Level 4s.

...

I would, however, be a little disturbed if CCP either gave these full T2 resists as some have been suggesting, or made them out-DPS Pirate Battleships under any circumstances. The first leads to half-million+ EHP Battleship hulls that won't die and the second leads to power-creep. (really they're both power-creep, the first is just concerning in a specific way).

Finally, mission running is one of the most common activities in Eve. Pretty much everyone does it at some point or another and many make a career of it. What they do with the ISK they make from it is another thing entirely but they still make their isk doing missions. Supporting this with a ship that is exceptionally good at missions is not a bad thing, despite your misgivings toward a "PvE focused ship in a PvP focused game".


Wait, so when it concerns buffing a "PvP ship," power creep is a problem, but when it comes to making an idiot-proof battleship for PvE that, "saves you having to worry much about tank in Level 4s," that is not power creep?