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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Aglais
Ice-Storm
#1821 - 2013-09-03 20:30:40 UTC
baltec1 wrote:


Just because its called a skirmish fleet doesnt mean the fleet spends all of its time zipping about.


This is not a false statement. The problem though, is how the bastion module forces the Marauder into staying in one location for a set period of time. If things go south, they're suddenly at a massive disadvantage and can't do much about it until the module finishes cycling. This IMO is what clashes the most with the whole 'skirmish' idea to me.
Nano Quantum
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1822 - 2013-09-03 20:32:41 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Quote:


+More Sensor Strength
+Web bonus back(something that will lock down targets, open for ideas)
+Larger drone bay and bandwidth
+Less tank more dps(last priority)

If CCP wants these to be mini dreads they it would make sense to increase their DPS output. Who cares how "applied" it is. The towers aren't moving.....

I understand people are screaming for more dps but realistically the marauders were fine before this update. All they needed was a sensor strength upgrade!

I'm more than happy to help create ideas for PVP balance. Increasing their tank as much as they did though was a bit much....


Dont need more sensor strength
Dont need webs
Dont need more drones
Its the massive tank and better damage projection that makes the ship interesting.

Sensor Strength has always been an issue with Marauders used in a PVP role. It is being addressed by the bastion E-war immunity.The issue with webs can be compensated by fleet composition I agree. As for the drones bays both bandwidth and drone capacity is being nerfed which is a valid concern in both dps and in maintaining the previous PVE style role some may enjoy. I'm sure it not matter much to you if they were simply gotten rid off since you stated you don't use them. The last thing is entirely the strong point and interesting part of the ships now even more so I agree.
Nano Quantum
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1823 - 2013-09-03 20:37:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Nano Quantum
Aglais wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


Just because its called a skirmish fleet doesnt mean the fleet spends all of its time zipping about.


This is not a false statement. The problem though, is how the bastion module forces the Marauder into staying in one location for a set period of time. If things go south, they're suddenly at a massive disadvantage and can't do much about it until the module finishes cycling. This IMO is what clashes the most with the whole 'skirmish' idea to me.

Pretty much my take on it as well and the stated 60 seconds bastion mode needs to be seriously debated and tested. Id' argue a 45 second cycle time serves the "bastion mode" downside while not turning the ship into an Alpha meat before it enters and when it comes out of the mode. The pilots facing off against marauders should not just be having them served on a silver platter KM. It ought not be an easy shiny KM of just being bashed away at and a reduced bastion cycle time would assure it would not be the case.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1824 - 2013-09-03 20:43:45 UTC
Aglais wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


Just because its called a skirmish fleet doesnt mean the fleet spends all of its time zipping about.


This is not a false statement. The problem though, is how the bastion module forces the Marauder into staying in one location for a set period of time. If things go south, they're suddenly at a massive disadvantage and can't do much about it until the module finishes cycling. This IMO is what clashes the most with the whole 'skirmish' idea to me.


Its just like any other ship in that reguard. The difference is that it has some tools to get out of these sticky situations that most others dont have. People need to be more creative with these things.
Nano Quantum
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1825 - 2013-09-03 20:50:41 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Aglais wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


Just because its called a skirmish fleet doesnt mean the fleet spends all of its time zipping about.


This is not a false statement. The problem though, is how the bastion module forces the Marauder into staying in one location for a set period of time. If things go south, they're suddenly at a massive disadvantage and can't do much about it until the module finishes cycling. This IMO is what clashes the most with the whole 'skirmish' idea to me.


Its just like any other ship in that reguard. The difference is that it has some tools to get out of these sticky situations that most others dont have. People need to be more creative with these things.

I agree with the above and have come around to the idea of the bastion mode, but as most things in EVE and life the devil is in the details.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1826 - 2013-09-03 20:54:36 UTC
It was a nice surprise to find out that you can activate your micro jump drive while in bastion mode, if you time it correctly you will micro jump as you are leaving bastion mode.

Or so CCP Ytterbium has implied.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Nano Quantum
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1827 - 2013-09-03 20:58:48 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
It was a nice surprise to find out that you can activate your micro jump drive while in bastion mode, if you time it correctly you will micro jump as you are leaving bastion mode.

Or so CCP Ytterbium has implied.

Yeah that is what I have understood as well just waiting on confirmation, but since the bastion module does not offline modules other than base speed...well the implications can be interesting.
Javius Rong
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1828 - 2013-09-03 21:10:59 UTC
The more I have thought about this the more I think CCP needs to do an HAC and come up with a version 2 proposal as this one still doesn't make sense.

So I want to sit still for 60 seconds in a 2billion+ ship??? Maybe the hi-sec carebears but I see no real use for 0.0 PvE or PvP.


Now a T2 resist BS with high close range damage (not projection) and some maneuverability. That might actually be useful. Maybe these should be turned into Dread killers and given a Nuet and sig radius bonus with some other draw back.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1829 - 2013-09-03 21:16:27 UTC
Javius Rong wrote:
The more I have thought about this the more I think CCP needs to do an HAC and come up with a version 2 proposal as this one still doesn't make sense.

So I want to sit still for 60 seconds in a 2billion+ ship??? Maybe the hi-sec carebears but I see no real use for 0.0 PvE or PvP.


Now a T2 resist BS with high close range damage (not projection) and some maneuverability. That might actually be useful. Maybe these should be turned into Dread killers and given a Nuet and sig radius bonus with some other draw back.


You just made more pirate battleships with more tank.
Battle Cube
Cube Collective
#1830 - 2013-09-03 21:16:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Battle Cube
Javius Rong wrote:
The more I have thought about this the more I think CCP needs to do an HAC and come up with a version 2 proposal as this one still doesn't make sense.

So I want to sit still for 60 seconds in a 2billion+ ship??? Maybe the hi-sec carebears but I see no real use for 0.0 PvE or PvP.


Now a T2 resist BS with high close range damage (not projection) and some maneuverability. That might actually be useful. Maybe these should be turned into Dread killers and given a Nuet and sig radius bonus with some other draw back.



i think i am coming to terms with the changes.... and since i want to use marauders this will be what i do with them....

i shall multibox L4s with them. The reasoning is this: it will be easy to jump in, bastion, turn on self rep, then just lock up and fire. No capchains, no tank management, no moving into range, no cap boosters, so very easy for multiboxers. Then i will un-bastion and mwd to gate since coordinating mjds while multiboxing is at best mildly inconvenient.

a lot of poeple will think this is OP for multiboxers, but whatever.

maybe set up one of the ships with an MJD in order to kill the frigates

actually, i could just set them all up with MJDs if i had all characters follow one in order to set align, it will take a little longer but it works for sync'ed gate warps so it should work here

i used to only be able to multibox like 2 effectively, maybe 4 (but then setting up cap chains for tanks meant that it was easier to shoot my alts if they were in the same corp) but now i should be able to field a full 10 at a time easily
Javius Rong
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1831 - 2013-09-03 21:20:11 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Javius Rong wrote:



Now a T2 resist BS with high close range damage (not projection) and some maneuverability. That might actually be useful. Maybe these should be turned into Dread killers and given a Nuet and sig radius bonus with some other draw back.


You just made more pirate battleships with more tank.


Yeah never said my idea was worth a damn.... Just seems like this mini-Dread is in conceived.
Vayn Baxtor
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1832 - 2013-09-03 21:39:32 UTC
I did not delve too much in the MJD playstyle this Marauder will offer but my only gripe with the MJD subject is that we might see specific alliances fielding these in today's "oh so amazing" battles that only involve people bouncing around from one safespot/ongrid spot to another.
Of course we have yet to see Marauders be fielded in large numbers, but somewhat we've seen that happen with T3 ships, so it is possible.

I don't know. The actual MJD beef is cool, but I have the feeling this could backfire.

Using tablet, typoes are common and I'm not going to fix them all.

Hanna Cyrus
Spessart Rebellen
#1833 - 2013-09-03 21:47:47 UTC
A Marauder is a T2 specialized ship. Specialized in doing PVE, in PVE should it be "King of the hill" not more, not less. Not every ship must be balanced or raped to be in a PVP role, which never was planed for (sensor strenght). Most users of these ship, use them as a PVE platform. Only a few used them at PVP in a niche PVP (WH Kronos).

So balance them as a PVE monster, but not with a bastion mode. A ship hull with these pricetag, should stay for what the name Marauder say. I must not the fastet one, not the one with the most ehp or the best tank. It should be the best in the niche it's designed for. The Marauder stays for: PVE.

Every ship class has it's role, i would enjoy to fly my Marauders with my friends and i don't like the idea, to use an other ship for a PVE incursion with my friends. I don't want to hear: bring a Pirate BS to the incursion, we can't remote rep you anymore.

If you want to PVP use an other ship class, there are enough out there. Pirate ships i have heard, should be good at it or designed for? Or are the Pirate BS better for PVE than a dedicated ship?
Cade Windstalker
#1834 - 2013-09-03 22:03:03 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Nano Quantum wrote:
While they were never intended or designed as such this marauder rebalance is supposed to address that...and by simply waving people's concerns away by stating they were never meant to PVP adds nothing to resolving the issue now which is PVP balance.

Please link where that said they were going to make marauders PvP ships.
Edit:NM it was in the OP, and that is so horribly wrong to try to use this bastion module as a increased PvP excuse.


Key word in the OP would be "niche". These are not supposed to be general use PvP ships.

Zeus Maximo wrote:
In order to be viable they need:

+More Sensor Strength
+Web bonus back(something that will lock down targets, open for ideas)
+Larger drone bay and bandwidth
+Less tank more dps(last priority)

If CCP wants these to be mini dreads they it would make sense to increase their DPS output. Who cares how "applied" it is. The towers aren't moving.....

I understand people are screaming for more dps but realistically the marauders were fine before this update. All they needed was a sensor strength upgrade!

I'm more than happy to help create ideas for PVP balance. Increasing their tank as much as they did though was a bit much....


I think what you're looking for is the Pirate Battleships.

Also you're focusing on the wrong thing about "Mini-dreads". They are not supposed to be DPS machines, as stated in the OP.

The fact that you and several others are claiming that getting the web bonus back (which was only removed from two of them!) will make them PvP viable proves how hilariously OP that bonus is.
Hanna Cyrus wrote:
A Marauder is a T2 specialized ship. Specialized in doing PVE, in PVE should it be "King of the hill" not more, not less. Not every ship must be balanced or raped to be in a PVP role, which never was planed for (sensor strenght). Most users of these ship, use them as a PVE platform. Only a few used them at PVP in a niche PVP (WH Kronos).

So balance them as a PVE monster, but not with a bastion mode. A ship hull with these pricetag, should stay for what the name Marauder say. I must not the fastet one, not the one with the most ehp or the best tank. It should be the best in the niche it's designed for. The Marauder stays for: PVE.

Every ship class has it's role, i would enjoy to fly my Marauders with my friends and i don't like the idea, to use an other ship for a PVE incursion with my friends. I don't want to hear: bring a Pirate BS to the incursion, we can't remote rep you anymore.

If you want to PVP use an other ship class, there are enough out there. Pirate ships i have heard, should be good at it or designed for? Or are the Pirate BS better for PVE than a dedicated ship?


The Bastion Mode is great for PvE, not so much Incursion PvE but then again if you're bringing these to incursions you're also bringing 4 utility highs. If there's another one in fleet you can Cap-Chain and MWD around like maniacs with short range guns and not have to worry about cap.

Plus they still have higher base resists than other battleships further improving them for incursions.

I think they still need a bit of tweaking between the hull and Bastion, and with what Bastion actually does, but overall I think this is a solid base idea.

Also the CSM got to see some of the WIP Tranforms and said they look awesome! Shocked
NextDarkKnight
Storm Chasers.
Pandemic Horde
#1835 - 2013-09-03 22:08:50 UTC
Hmmm.. CCP can you consider only cutting the drone bandwidth while the new module is deployed or fitted? I think that will make some people happy that don't or wont' use the module. It'll let the ship have more customization options.
Zeus Maximo
Mentally Assured Destruction
The Pursuit of Happiness
#1836 - 2013-09-03 22:09:00 UTC
Aglais wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
"Marauders are going to be useless for PVE/PVP!"

Except I can think of how amazing a Kronos would be running Guristas sanctums, or how great these ships would be in an elite "Top-Gun" style skirmish doctrine.


"Look at the new mobility of Marauders now! Skirmishing in PvP!"

Please sir, please help me find my sides- I think they're just leaving Earth orbit now.

Putting these new Marauders into a 'skirmish fleet' is exactly like expecting a quad-plated abaddon to be able to keep up with a bunch of nano-stabbers. It's not happening.

In order for the Marauder to be useful in PvP it has to deploy Bastion Mode. Which makes it stationary. Which makes it far more of a 'point defense'/area denial style fighter, than a skirmisher. As a result, "Marauders" end up with the MOST MISLEADING NAME IN THE ENTIRE GAME. They're not even trying to make it better at PvP, and I don't think the devs have TRIED the new Marauders in PvP in their internal server. The only thing to my knowledge they've even really tested is the Kronos. In L4s.

These ships are completely paradoxical.

"Let's give them MJD bonuses, so they can blip 100km away when a threat appears!"
"Let's give them the Bastion Module, so they can become completely immobile for an entire minute and get extreme tank!"

At extreme range, tank is pointless. When this tank is necessary, RANGE is pointless. There's no synergy! The new Marauders are barely about 'harassment' or 'skirmishing'. They're about tactically redeploying themselves around a battlefield and trying (but failing) to be 'mini dreadnoughts'. And people have pointed out- look at how much they had to increase mass and decrease mobility. And how they didn't change base sensor strength at all despite that LITERALLY BEING THE ONLY REASON THEY ARE NOT THROWN AROUND MORE IN PVP RIGHT NOW. This is a clumsy change. There's no "Yes, this makes sense" factor regarding the stat alterations, in my opinion. They're extremely forced. The only improvements are in the PvE arena, and they're improving in areas that Marauders are already damn near perfect in- it's a moot point, basically.

See my posts here and here for possible alterations to Marauders that would actually make them competent in PvP, in situations that aren't so overwhelmingly niche so as to just not happen, period.



I could +1 this all day

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Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#1837 - 2013-09-03 22:22:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Altrue
I still think that :
1- Speed shouldn't be nerfed. Loosing time this way is paradoxical for the ultime PvE ship. :/

2- Tractor beam range should match the weapon's range. How good is it to kill a BS at 95km with a golem if I can't loot it ? Do I need to MJD just to reach it ?

3- Last but not least, there has to be a variation of the bastion module that drastically cuts tracking and sig resolution but increases damages, for structure shooting.

Point 2 and 3, come on, for a 1b hull, that's the minimum we could get !

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Caleb Seremshur
Commando Guri
Guristas Pirates
#1838 - 2013-09-03 22:27:15 UTC
my challenge to all the forum warriors now is to provide me an example of why I would fly a new marauder over a t1 or pirate ship.

Please consider: solo vs fleet comp
cost
tank and dps
utility

for advanced posters:
reasons to fly this in a nullsec/wormhole
actual willingness to engage a target
Cade Windstalker
#1839 - 2013-09-03 22:55:27 UTC
Altrue wrote:
I still think that :
1- Speed shouldn't be nerfed. Loosing time this way is paradoxical for the ultime PvE ship. :/

2- Tractor beam range should match the weapon's range. How good is it to kill a BS at 95km with a golem if I can't loot it ? Do I need to MJD just to reach it ?

3- Last but not least, there has to be a variation of the bastion module that drastically cuts tracking and sig resolution but increases damages, for structure shooting.

Point 2 and 3, come on, for a 1b hull, that's the minimum we could get !


1. It's a tiny speed nerf, especially if you use the MJD/triangles or use a MWD.

2. Sure, why not? Though honestly increasing their tractor range isn't really going to break anything.

3. No, we do not need "Dread-blap Junior". For reference a Moros only does about 1500 DPS without Siege. Dreads were removed from high-sec for a reason.
Silvetica Dian
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#1840 - 2013-09-03 23:04:46 UTC
Zeus Maximo wrote:
[quote=Onictus][quote=Zeus Maximo]

What is easier to hit? A moving target or a stationary one?

.


It depends if you are moving or not as what matters is transversal and that number is the same for you and the stationary target. Assuming someone orbiting then it is likely that they maintain a higher transversal on a stationary target than a moving one and thus the stationary target is harder to hit.
Also i read quite a lot of your posts and they are pretty much wrong in every way possible.

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