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[Suggestion] Marauders

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SOL Ranger
Imperial Armed Forces
#1 - 2013-09-03 16:28:33 UTC  |  Edited by: SOL Ranger
Marauders

The first draft proposal for Marauders I find somewhat misplaced as has been stated by many others, mostly due to the pigeon holed role of an immobile turret/tank, I would like to tackle the issue on the role of Marauders without moving away from the proposal completely.

I've hesitated to post this because it is quite early still to pass judgement on the official proposal and it is hardly refined to any extent, but here goes anyway; Take this for what it is, a counter proposal aka. an opinion.


Reasoning

A Marauder in my view isn't someone who is often alone, as I see it it is more so a term used for a group who pillage and raid; Having a group of Marauders(current battleships) maraud/raid doesn't really fit as these things are quite clumsy even if they were made faster and more agile, as a follow up force they are quite adequate but in a first wave attack their slow nature makes them not fit for the task; I don't disagree with people who think that they should have the potential to be quite nimble however I do feel the battleships on their own do not "Maraud" successfully, you need a dedicated group of fast attack ships for that, which together creates the raiding party which marauds.

  • It needs swarms of quick but smaller similar in style hard hitting ships, so we get the destroyer class.
  • It needs even quicker vessels to reliably pounce on others before they get a chance to leave, the 'Tactical Jump Drive' works a bit towards that but they still need something more flexible and reliable to initially catch and hold down targets so that the destroyers can come in and finally the Marauder itself, so we get the interceptors.

    • Why did I not blanket select all frigates and destroyers into this?
    I believe the role of combat ships doesn't fit for Marauding even if those ships are excellent, only immensely swift or very high damage attack vessels are needed; Additionally both Interceptors and Destroyers could use some more useful roles.
    There is nothing that prevents the use of other ship types which can dock inside, they just don't gain any bonuses from the marauder nor do they provide any additional benefits to the raiding party either.
    I would fully expect to see stealth scout ships providing most of the intelligence work for them to then dock up when the marauder lands and undock in a destroyer to engage in joyful destruction.


    Both of these ship types are quite flimsy with tank, to allow them to be used more reliably in respect to the Marauders longevity we add localized boosts to the single squad.

    Marauder squad bonus:

    These bonuses are active for the immediate squad only and only within 250km, only for interceptors and destroyers, these are not generic fleet bonuses.

  • Increases loot by 5%(50% max, 50% reduced amount of destroyed items for player targets) and bounties by 10%(100% max) from destroyed ships(NPC and players) for each squad member; Only affects the marauder itself, interceptor and destroyer class ships within 250km(only ships in the field count).
  • Reduces signature radius of your squad by 10%; Only affects interceptor and destroyer class ships within 250km.
    • Increases the shield, armour and hull resistances of your squad by 20%; Only affects interceptor and destroyer class ships within 250km.
  • Increases the shield, armour and hull hit points of your squad by 50%; Only affects interceptor and destroyer class ships within 250km.


    • I find that not only does this reinforce the actual role of the Marauder, but it creates a very nice and easy small gang platform to iterate on, for new and veteran players, PvE/PvP, for Hisec/Losec and Null.

    Additionally there are other sides to this which make it even more interesting, it fleshes out the versatility of the ship class to distinguish it from ordinary and pirate battleships, it becomes a stepping stone between battleships and dreadnoughts/carriers, without threatening any for their roles.


    So I've established that the Marauder(ship) is for me a destroyer gang leader good at getting paid, then what?
    The ships are quite raw, they don't have much utility other than a couple high slots, those high slots do not create a Marauder spirit more than they do on a regular Battleship.
    Pirate ships are all about overwhelming dominance through generic statistics, Marauders should be about dominance through tactical means, like Strategic Cruisers but in a limited scope yet fully capable of utilizing its tactical capabilities in space, without the need to dock up.

    Marauders need unique capabilities to support the marauding role, actually it needs utility which defines the process of marauding as opposed to just warping somewhere and attacking the enemy; It needs tactical dominance.

    Tactical dominance shopping list:
  • Ease of travel
  • Expert communication
  • Expert intelligence gathering
  • Unsurpassed ship property flexibility in space.

    • This brings us to the next section, Modules.

    The Vargur requires launcher hardpoints, following tempest tradition.
    SOL Ranger
    Imperial Armed Forces
    #2 - 2013-09-03 16:28:43 UTC  |  Edited by: SOL Ranger
    New modules:

    To achieve tactical dominance we need some new technology, we need useful modules which which the Marauder will define its practicality for Marauding and equally to steer clear of the other roles combat vessels carry.


    In the mission to allow unsurpassed unhindered mobility without the use of a cloak in hostile space the Marauder employs a different strategy of scouts which signal for the Marauder and allows it to directly make interstellar jumps without the use of a warp gate. A Marauder can jump to pinpoint locations at will rarely needing to use any propulsion or propulsion modules other than the Jump Drive.

    'Tactical Jump Drive' module
  • Allows direct jumps to any targets at any range system wide, direct jumps take 10 seconds spool time.
  • Allows direct jumps to any in fleet member/agent up to 1 system away. 15 seconds spool time during which graphics will show a spooling graphics at the future landing point.
  • Landing location is the position of the target when the module was first activated.
  • Allows blind directional jumps up to 250km(in 50km intervals).
  • 70 CPU, 1500 powergrid, Medium


    • In an effort to provide basic unaided intelligence and reliable communications at long ranges and to reduce the need to always travel even for mere trivialities a Marauder requires secure interstellar communications.

    'Tactical Long Range Communicator' module
  • Allows the user to tap into local chat in up to 2 systems away.
  • Allows the user to directly communicate with Agents up to 2 systems away.
  • 120 CPU, 200 powergrid, High.


    • Section modules:

    Section modules are not standard modules, they provide sections of activity/offices on the ship to accomplish a particular required special task.


    Section modules are used in the section slots on the Marauders, every Marauder has 4 free slots which can be used for any of the following modules, some are unique and may only be used once.
    Note that these modules may cost quite a bit in fitting requirements, so that just fitting every utility section might not be a good idea without weighing their value for your specific needs.


    'Emergency Maintenance Section' Section module
  • Modules repaired with nanite paste are repaired 50% faster.
  • Can repair burned out modules in space.
  • Can fit/remove modules in space over 1 minute.
  • Repairs armour and hull by 10 HP/ 10s passively regardless of repairers, also repairs any docked drone or craft armour and hull at the same rate.
  • Section modules cannot be removed in space.
  • Only one may be fitted per ship.
  • Uses 100CPU and 1000 powergrid to fit.

    • 'Manufacturing Section' Section module
  • Allows rudimentary reprocessing of items and ores, high efficiency penalty, reduced to 25% penalty with reprocessing skills.
  • Can with the direct use of blueprints create items of a low grade nature, created in a haste at a 200% increased speed but a high increased material cost, reduced to 100% increased cost with manufacturing skills.
  • Allows the creation of Nanite Repair Paste with metal scraps albeit expensively.
  • Only one may be fitted per ship.
  • Uses 100 CPU and 1000 powergrid to fit.

    • 'Ship Docking Section' Section module
  • Provides the ship with 2x 60000m3 compartments for active ship docking, anything larger than 60000m3 cannot be assembled nor docked but can be transported.
  • Provides the ship with additional 20000m3 ship hangar space.
  • All compartments share one persistent item hangar, the marauder pilot has access to it as well.
  • Each docking section adds 2000m3 to the shared item hangar.
  • A ship can hold a maximum of 10 compartments.
  • Uses 100 CPU and 1000 powergrid to fit.

    • 'Medical Section' Section module
  • Provides the ship with rudimentary medical facilities for cloning, only available for fleet members.
  • Uses 100 CPU and 1000 powergrid to fit.
  • This needs an additional change to make it less prone to horrible side effects, podding must never cause a player to lose skillpoints.

    • (other sections such as cargo/drone/ore bay size etc)

    The Vargur requires launcher hardpoints, following tempest tradition.
    SOL Ranger
    Imperial Armed Forces
    #3 - 2013-09-03 16:28:52 UTC  |  Edited by: SOL Ranger
    (Section Modules continued)

    'Tactical Operations Section'(TacOps) Section module.
  • Uses doctrines to alter ship and squad behaviour.
  • Doctrines may be changed at any time, the process takes 60 seconds during which time the ship will run without doctrine and the new doctrine activates immediately after those 60 seconds unless the module been been turned off: The module has no cycle.
  • All doctrines are inherent to the module, no additional items/scripts are needed.
  • Only one may be fitted per Marauder.
  • Uses 100 CPU and 1000 powergrid to fit


    • Doctrines

    ONLY THE LAST BONUS IN EVERY DOCTRINE IS A SQUAD BONUS, IT ONLY AFFECTS INTERCEPTORS AND DESTROYERS WITHIN 250KM.

    'GUARDIAN DOCTRINE' tactical doctrine
  • [+]400% bonus to Energy Transfer Array range.
  • [+]200% bonus to remote armour repairer range.
  • [+]200% bonus to shield transporter range.
  • [+]25% increased capacitor recharge rate.
  • [-]50% reduced damage to all weapon systems.
  • [-]25% reduction to large turret tracking.
  • [-]25% reduction to cruise missile and torpedo explosion velocity
  • [-]50% reduced maximum velocity, agility reduced by 50%, can warp.
  • Squad: Increases shield, armour and hull resistances of your squad by 20%; Only affects interceptor and destroyer class ships in fleet and within 250km.

    • 'PRIVATEER DOCTRINE' tactical doctrine
    For use by the opportunistic pilot, aids in the procurement of loot quickly whilst compromising as little combat capabilities as possible in the process.
  • [+]50% increased drone control range
  • [+]50% increased drone hitpoints, velocity and mining yield.
  • [+]50% increased tractor beam range and velocity
  • [+]100% increased salvager range.
  • [+]75% reduced salvager cycle time.
  • [+]100% increased range of tactical jump drive fleet target jump(2 systems).
  • Squad: Reduces salvager cycle time of your squad by 75%; Only affects interceptor and destroyer class ships within 250km.

    • 'SIEGE DOCTRINE' tactical doctrine
    For use against large slower foes which present little danger, very resource intensive.
  • [+]60% increased rate of fire to all large weapon systems.
  • [-]95% reduction to large turret tracking.
  • [-]95% reduction to cruise missile and torpedo explosion velocity
  • [-]40% reduced capacitor recharge rate.
  • [-]25% reduction to maximum velocity, agility reduced by 50%, can warp.
  • Squad: Provides no squad bonus.

    • 'ASSAULT DOCTRINE' tactical doctrine
    Make assaulting a profitable highly effective short range endeavour without making the doctrine universally used with short range weapons and long range ammunition in kiting, for kiting you will want pirate battleships.
  • [+]10% increased damage to all large weapon systems.
  • [+]10% increased rate of fire to all large weapon systems.
  • [+]50% bonus to large turret tracking.
  • [+]50% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo explosion velocity
  • [+]25% reduction in the amount of heat damage absorbed by modules.
  • [+]100% increased maximum velocity, agility reduced by 50%, can warp.
  • [-]60% reduced large turret optimal range and falloff.
  • [-]60% reduced cruise missile and torpedo velocity and flight time.
  • [-]60% reduction to maximum targeting range.
  • [-]25% reduced capacitor recharge rate.
  • Squad: Increases turret tracking and missile explosion velocity of your squad by 25%;Only affects interceptor and destroyer class ships within 250km.

    • 'SENTRY DOCTRINE' tactical doctrine
    Highly effective yet somewhat energy/ammunition wasteful long range doctrine, resources may be used more wastefully when safe although still not recommended unless in large surplus, the doctrine tries to avoid the use of short range guns/torpedoes whilst providing reliable highly uninterrupted damage at long ranges.
  • [+]50% increased rate of fire to all large weapon systems.
  • [+]75% bonus to large turret optimal range.(specifically ignoring falloff)
  • [+]75% bonus to cruise missile velocity.(specifically ignoring torpedoes)
  • [+]50% increase to maximum targeting range.
  • [+]25% increase to scan resolution.
  • [+]100% increased sensor strength.
  • [-]30% reduced damage to all large weapon systems.
  • [-]75% reduced maximum velocity, agility reduced by 75%, can warp.
  • Squad: Increases optimal range/falloff and missile velocity of your squad by 25%;Only affects interceptor and destroyer class ships within 250km.

    • (REMOVED)'FORTRESS DOCTRINE' tactical doctrine

    The Vargur requires launcher hardpoints, following tempest tradition.
    SOL Ranger
    Imperial Armed Forces
    #4 - 2013-09-03 16:29:01 UTC  |  Edited by: SOL Ranger
    MARAUDER summary

    The lead ship of a dedicated raiding party, it attacks and plunders either up close or from afar and it is very prone to brute force tactics regardless of engagement ranges, this due to superior resilience against unorthodox warfare tactics which give the Marauder a clear edge in complex engagements; If that does not suffice the elite raiding squadron it carries onboard can surely make the odds fall in its favour.
    The combat capabilities of the Marauder are of high grade and generally very flexible but offer little in the form of a complete solution in any given immediate situation, it follows strict doctrines and makes use of them to their extremes, this is why the Marauder is best used as a tactical attack vessel and will disengage immediately if unexpected problems arise.

    Note:
    Can fit Section modules.
    Can fit Tactical Jump Drive. 70% reduction in Jump Drive reactivation delay.
    Can fit Tactical Long Range Communicator.
    Can use Warfare Link modules.


    VARGUR

    Role bonus:
    100% bonus to Large Projectile Turret damage.
    50% Reduction in the amount of heat damage absorbed by modules.
    15% reduced capacitor need on all modules.
    150% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams.
    100% bonus to the range of Stasis Webifiers.
    Marauder Warp Strength +1.
    50% reduced effect from enemy Stasis Webifier.
    50% reduced effect from enemy Energy Neutralizer and Energy Vampire.

    Special ability:
    200% bonus to the range of Stasis Webifiers.

    Minmatar Battleship Skill Bonus:
    5% bonus to large projectile turret rate of fire per level.
    10% bonus to large projectile turret falloff per level.

    Marauder Skill Bonus:
    7.5% bonus to armour repair and shield boost amount per level.
    5% reduced capacitor need for shield boosters and armour repairers.

    Slot layout: 8H, 7M, 7L; 4 turrets, 2 launchers
    Fittings: 12900 PWG, 625 CPU
    Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 9500 / 9200 / 8200
    Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 142m/s / .112 / 116840000/ 18.1s
    Drones (bandwidth / bay): 65 / 260
    Sensor strength: 22 Ladar

    KRONOS

    Role bonus:
    100% bonus to Large Hybrid Turret damage
    50% Reduction in the amount of heat damage absorbed by modules.
    15% reduced capacitor need on all modules.
    150% to range and velocity of tractor beams.
    100% bonus to the range of Stasis Webifiers.
    Marauder Warp Strength +1.
    50% reduced effect from enemy Stasis Webifier.
    50% reduced effect from enemy Energy Neutralizer and Energy Vampire.

    Special ability:
    100% bonus to Warp Scrambler and Warp Disruptor range.

    Gallente Battleship Skill Bonus:
    5% bonus to Large Hybrid Turret rate of fire per level.
    7.5% bonus to large Hybrid Turret tracking per level

    Marauder Skill Bonus:
    7.5% bonus to armour and hull hitpoints per level.
    7.5% bonus to repair amount of armor and hull repair systems

    Slot layout: 8H, 6M, 8L; 4 turrets, 0 launchers
    Fittings: 14000 PWG , 580 CPU
    Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 6600 / 11200 / 11800
    Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 132 m/s / .114/ 113160000/ 17.8s
    Drones (bandwidth / bay): 75 / 300
    Sensor strength: 26 Magnetometric


    PALADIN

    Role Bonus:
    100% bonus to Large Energy Turret damage.
    50% Reduction in the amount of heat damage absorbed by modules.
    15% reduced capacitor need on all modules.
    150% to range and velocity of Tractor Beams.
    100% bonus to the range of Stasis Webifiers.
    Marauder Warp Strength +1.
    50% reduced effect from enemy Stasis Webifier.
    50% reduced effect from enemy Energy Neutralizer and Energy Vampire.

    Special ability:
    100% bonus to Energy Neutralizer and Energy Vampire range.

    Amarr Battleship Skill Bonus:
    5% bonus to large laser damage per level.
    7.5% bonus to Large Energy Turret optimal range per level.

    Marauder Skill Bonus:
    10% bonus to armour hitpoints per level.
    5% bonus to capacitor capacity per level

    Slot layout: 8H, 6M, 8L; 4 turrets, 2 launchers
    Fittings: 16500 PWG, 530 CPU
    Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 7300 / 11000 / 11700
    Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 125 m/s / .119 / 111665000/ 18.42s
    Drones (bandwidth / bay): 55/ 220
    Sensor strength: 24 Radar


    GOLEM

    Role Bonus:
    100% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo damage
    50% Reduction in the amount of heat damage absorbed by modules.
    25% reduced capacitor need on all modules.
    150% to range and velocity of Tractor Beams.
    100% bonus to the range of Stasis Webifiers.
    Marauder Warp Strength +1.
    50% reduced effect from enemy Stasis Webifier.
    50% reduced effect from enemy Energy Neutralizer and Energy Vampire.

    Special ability:
    100% bonus to optimal range of target painters.

    Caldari Battleship Skill Bonus:
    5% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo velocity per level.
    5% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo rate of fire per level.

    Marauders Skill Bonus:
    10% bonus to shield hitpoints per level.
    10% bonus to shield recharge rate per level.

    Slot layout: 8H, 8M, 6L; 2 turrets, 4 launchers
    Fittings: 12500 PWG, 715 CPU
    Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 10000/ 7100 / 8000
    Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 125 m/s/ .12 / 114195000 / 19s
    Drones (bandwidth / bay): 45/ 180
    Sensor strength: 28 Gravimetric


    Or something similar to this.

    The Vargur requires launcher hardpoints, following tempest tradition.
    Siginek
    Newbie Friendly Industries
    CeskoSlovenska Aliance
    #5 - 2013-09-03 17:45:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Siginek
    Idea of very versatile marauder is good, BUT ur proposal is way too owerpowered in all ways ... its like u r thinking about marauders like about some god ship ... i doubt CCP will ever do such massive change of existing ship not mentioning most of ur ideas would need to be nerfed at least to half to not make marauders too overpowered ... on one side they r tech 2 ship which would deserve better stats compare to tech 1 or pirate BS because they r rly expensive and requie lot of training time, but on the other side this is just too much
    ...
    But some of ur ideas are good not just for marauders but generally for whole EVE .... for example tactical jump drive could be good for escalation, but it should be limited for local system, not for surrounding systems ...
    SOL Ranger
    Imperial Armed Forces
    #6 - 2013-09-03 17:53:25 UTC
    Siginek wrote:



    It could be that some of the statistics I've provided are a bit over the top, I'm actually not sure, but when looking at the official proposal everything I've suggested is much weaker and more situational with none of the doctrines providing universal benefits.

    The official proposal pretty much covers god mode right off the bat.

    The Vargur requires launcher hardpoints, following tempest tradition.
    Siginek
    Newbie Friendly Industries
    CeskoSlovenska Aliance
    #7 - 2013-09-03 18:07:33 UTC
    nah, official proposal is more like indestructable sitting duck with no real use because why would i need tank that can hold 5 BS but with damage of one of them ... that can give u some time before ur support arives but for pve ship which marauder is is that tank together with its DPS useless ... thats why i said ur ideas are good but most of ur proposals are too OP
    Battle Cube
    Cube Collective
    #8 - 2013-09-03 19:16:44 UTC
    Honestly i didnt read the whole proposal.... But i never even CONSIDERED the IDEA of making this ship provide better loot....i could imagine it being for both PVE and for effecting PVP drop chances.... Now that is a cool idea all in its own.

    Refreshing at least
    SOL Ranger
    Imperial Armed Forces
    #9 - 2013-09-03 19:23:58 UTC
    Siginek wrote:
    ... thats why i said ur ideas are good but most of ur proposals are too OP


    I really wouldn't know where to start, I've tried to go down in strength from the official proposal and instead add usefulness and reliability whilst removing E-war immunity, repair bonuses and even range in the 'Bastion' now Fortress doctrine and made it strictly defensive.

    I pretty much watered down 'Bastion' into specific roles where almost all of them has some kind of weakness(Privateer nearly doesn't, which is fine); Razor specific roles which are very useful I don't find are a problem as long as they still have obvious weaknesses, maybe some numbers are a bit off though, that is very possible.
    Changing doctrine in mid fight could be devastating as when that doctrine comes into play 30 seconds later it could very well be in a situation you needed another doctrine again.

    What this essentially means is that the Marauder can pick fights, but if the attack plan crumbles it's time to fly off or hope you have time to adapt.

    It could be possible that drawbacks should be increased for most of the doctrines, anyway, please elaborate as to what is OP so I can adjust

    Thank you.

    The Vargur requires launcher hardpoints, following tempest tradition.
    Cade Windstalker
    #10 - 2013-09-03 19:46:08 UTC
    Two points:

    This is hilariously over-powered.

    There is already a thread for discussing the Marauder changes.
    SOL Ranger
    Imperial Armed Forces
    #11 - 2013-09-03 20:02:26 UTC
    Cade Windstalker wrote:

    This is hilariously over-powered.


    Could you hilariously point out where so we can discuss it?

    The Vargur requires launcher hardpoints, following tempest tradition.
    SOL Ranger
    Imperial Armed Forces
    #12 - 2013-09-04 07:04:02 UTC
    Battle Cube wrote:
    Honestly i didnt read the whole proposal.... But i never even CONSIDERED the IDEA of making this ship provide better loot....i could imagine it being for both PVE and for effecting PVP drop chances.... Now that is a cool idea all in its own.

    Refreshing at least



    I hope you read it fully at some stage, it might not be perfect but I think there are many things that reinforce the Marauder role beyond the profitability bonus in my suggestion.

    The Vargur requires launcher hardpoints, following tempest tradition.
    Cade Windstalker
    #13 - 2013-09-04 09:23:38 UTC
    SOL Ranger wrote:
    Cade Windstalker wrote:

    This is hilariously over-powered.


    Could you hilariously point out where so we can discuss it?


    There's too much, I'd end up taking up an entire forum page. Lets start with the huge list of bonuses to just about everything a ship can do.

    The loot bonus is horribly abuseable and ends up just being a flat buff to NPC loot and bounties. (Never mind that bonuses don't work that way and any sort of leadership boost would overlap and not stack).

    You've invented a module to replace warping. Said module also lets you completely bypass stargates regardless of the distance in AU between you and the target system... no and no. Things that make other mechanics completely irrelevant should have trade-offs. For caps it's the fact that they can't use gates and cost fuel.

    The agent module doesn't get around having to turn in mission rewards and since the agent turn in may trigger a session change might not even work (not sure about this).

    You have a module that obsoletes docking in stations. Seriously, no.

    You can somehow shove 2 Destroyers/Interdictors inside a Battleship... (yeah that wouldn't be abused at all)

    You've basically turned the thing into not only a mini-capital ship but something that would be considered over-powered even FOR capital ships.

    Your fleet boosting option is the largest set of bonuses I've seen on anything in the game, both in terms of number and magnitude. Hilariously broken is the only words here.

    And you've basically given the hulls a selection of the best bonuses off the T3s but at greater magnitude...

    And of course for all of the above there seems to be no significant trade-offs made beyond things taking up a module slot.

    Is that enough?
    Debora Tsung
    Perkone
    Caldari State
    #14 - 2013-09-04 10:46:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Debora Tsung
    I wanted to say someting about "Marauders, the new super command battleship FOTM of the coming decade..."

    But then i saw Cade's post, which covers all that quite nicely and more politely.

    +1 from me. :)

    Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

    Fighting back is more fun than not.

    Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.
    Arya Regnar
    Darwins Right Hand
    #15 - 2013-09-04 11:20:24 UTC
    No -1

    EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
    SOL Ranger
    Imperial Armed Forces
    #16 - 2013-09-04 12:09:42 UTC
    Cade Windstalker wrote:


    There's too much, I'd end up taking up an entire forum page. Lets start with the huge list of bonuses to just about everything a ship can do.


    Just because there are many bonuses don't make them overpowered, the bonuses are there to define a role.
    If some of the figures are too high, please name them and I'll try addressing them individually, but collectively saying there is too much I do not agree.

    "The loot bonus is horribly abuseable and ends up just being a flat buff to NPC loot and bounties. (Never mind that bonuses don't work that way and any sort of leadership boost would overlap and not stack)."

    Abused through having 10 people within 250km playing together for a bonus of 50% loot and 100% bounties? Why would anyone do that? 10 accounts to spare just to float in space in interceptors and destroyers, seems horribly inefficient for someone looking to abuse things.

    "You've invented a module to replace warping."
    It doesn't replace warping unless you want to sit and wait a full minute+spool for every jump and it is only for the Marauder.
    This is a unique method of transportation for the Marauder and I don't see anything wrong with it, quite the contrary I find it refreshing.

    "Said module also lets you completely bypass stargates regardless of the distance in AU between you and the target system... no and no. Things that make other mechanics completely irrelevant should have trade-offs. For caps it's the fact that they can't use gates and cost fuel."

    You are correct, the jumps should be directly dictated by actual range and not by system count, sloppy of me.
    I don't believe a trade-off is necessary to let a Marauder jump without a fuel cost nor to bypass a gate if a fleet member resides in a adjacent system, these are both intentional.

    "The agent module doesn't get around having to turn in mission rewards and since the agent turn in may trigger a session change might not even work (not sure about this)."

    It is merely a communication device meant to see/request/decline missions, aka trivial things with an agent. To complete a missions isn't a triviality, although you bring a good point, maybe it shouldn't require you to dock at all to fit the Marauder role even better.

    "You have a module that obsoletes docking in stations. Seriously, no."

    For one specific ship, allowing it a unique property, the ship is supposed to survive for long durations behind enemy lines, I see no issue with this; Just because something is different and introduces advantages otherwise unheard of doesn't make it a bad idea, you don't like it, I respect that.
    I like it though and I bet my pink slippers there will be many who agree with me on this, people who are stuck in carbon coloured holes come to mind.

    "You can somehow shove 2 Destroyers/Interdictors inside a Battleship... (yeah that wouldn't be abused at all)"
    Up to 10 not 2 and the pilots who come with them, think carrier for a raiding party.
    I actually missed to enter the part where I increased the size of the ships up to around 1.5m m3 to end up quite larger than a regular battleship, possibly the signature and mass should be increased, although size!=mass so... maybe not.

    "You've basically turned the thing into not only a mini-capital ship but something that would be considered over-powered even FOR capital ships."
    This is the intention, a relatively low damage versatile small capital ship, no it isn't "overpowered".

    "Your fleet boosting option is the largest set of bonuses I've seen on anything in the game, both in terms of number and magnitude. Hilariously broken is the only words here."

    This affects two of the tank-wise flimsiest ships in the game and only these two ship types in a close gang role with the Marauder, both of which often get volleyed without even getting a single shot fired, you're hilariously exaggerating.

    "And you've basically given the hulls a selection of the best bonuses off the T3s but at greater magnitude...
    And of course for all of the above there seems to be no significant trade-offs made beyond things taking up a module slot."

    I don't feel long ranges on the special abilities nor the special abilities themselves are a problem, they add flavour to the ships; Additionally these ships are significantly larger/more expensive than strategic cruisers and the effect reflects that and the ranges they engage in.

    The Vargur requires launcher hardpoints, following tempest tradition.
    Cade Windstalker
    #17 - 2013-09-04 20:09:15 UTC
    I'm sorry, no where do you say anything about your "I'm better than a command ship" bonuses affecting only small ships.

    Also, and I'll reitterate this again, there are no-tradeoffs for any of this. Your entire post is a "Give me an OP god-ship"

    Also, for a very specific example of how you could abuse this. Sit an ultra-tanked Marauder in the middle of a fight. You could probably get it up to 1mil EH. In anything under an Asakai sized fleet fight it's going to be basically unkillable and can just pop out a Dictor, which will then launch its bubble and then return to safety.

    Nevery mind that:


    • Nothing currently in-game affects only everyone in 250km. The game is not setup to support this at present.
    • 10 people doing missions or incursions can now make more money than anyone in another ship doing that in low-sec or null, never mind what a 10-man multi-boxer could do.
    • The entire "make small ships completely OP" concept is flawed in more ways than I can count. One ship should not be able to make a Destroyer better in most ways than a Cruiser.
    • Modules do nothing in stations. If you have a "module" that lets you do something only in a station it's not a module it's a skill.
    • You are removing ISK sinks from the game with a ship, no.


    I could go on but I hope this gets the point across.

    Also: "I think this is fine" is not an argument for why something is not over-powered in game mechanics terms or why it doesn't obsolete something else in the game.
    SOL Ranger
    Imperial Armed Forces
    #18 - 2013-09-05 08:12:21 UTC  |  Edited by: SOL Ranger
    Cade Windstalker wrote:

    I'm sorry, no where do you say anything about your "I'm better than a command ship" bonuses affecting only small ships.


    It states it in every bonus all across the pages everywhere.
    All of the bonuses require the people to be in interceptors and destroyers within 250km, if the game doesn't provide this possibility currently then that should be changed so that it does; If you want to suggest something based on a relic of a limitation, go ahead I won't stop you.

    Clarification:
    These bonuses apply to no other ships than interceptors and destroyer class ships, nor more ships than the immediate squad of the Marauder(maximum of 10) also only affects the ships in squad and only within 250km.

    The loot bonus requires 10 people to be in interceptors and destroyers to max it out, maybe it isn't explained perfectly but that is the intention, a multiboxer will go down in profit by a significant margin trying to abuse the loot bonus.


    No, I'm not looking for a "god ship", stop being facetious, I seriously hope for your sake you know better than that.
    I already adjusted the resistance bonuses on the ship to bring it down in terms of potential EHP in an attempt to make it less bulky.

    Again, I just want to remind you that the official proposal is a 'God ship' which gets all bonuses in one mode and I'm actually trying to bring a moderate situational specialized solution with a high utility base instead; This ship, whilst being powerful won't be able to just sit down alone on a gate and expect to win like the official proposal, it isn't immune to anything and requires its support wing to be highly effective.


    I think you're saying the potential EHP is too high for a T2 Battleship costing 1-1.5b, do you have a suggestion as to how to lower it without making it too vulnerable?
    With too vulnerable I mean that so it doesn't become a loot piñata for the first "press F1 now" blob to come around or alpha it instantly with little effort. The ship will not be sitting in Fortress doctrine(bastion) contrary to your belief, it takes 30 seconds to enter that doctrine during which you fly without doctrine and it doesn't provide any offensive properties. If it is in guardian doctrine its own damage is reduced quite significantly.

    I'm trying to allow the Marauder to be sturdy but not immortal, very useful but only in special tactics and for long missions, actually I think you understand this but you're just not interested in having any of it.

    I'm sorry but your posts are just ridden in hyperbole, especially your introduced scene of an assault being nearly impossible on a marauder and its gang, not only is that a total of 11 men you're apparently trying to assault, but against a fortress(bastion) doctrine marauder sitting on a gate fully tank fit? Why would anyone do that unless they want to explode.

    This is supposed to allow low end or dedicated gang activity with ease, what it doesn't do is to take over EVE and ruin pvp as you seem to suggest; You sound like you want to engage the marauder in frigates or other flimsy ships when it has a deployed 10 man destroyer fleet. This is the very reason why blobs work so well, you fly whatever you want and press F1 whilst having to suffer no consequences to that choice.

    Want to T1 blob this thing? You can, but you'll be taking damage too, not from a "bastion" Marauder, but from the dedicated gang it represents.


    The section modules all work outside of station, you're stuck in a belief that a section module is the same as a regular module, it is not, these are modularized sections for the ship. Imagine the cube and you add rooms to it, same thing in principle.


    I get your stance and your agenda of protecting EVE from anything out of the ordinary but I think you're blowing it out of proportion in every point you're trying to make.
    Sure there are issues with the suggestion, I'm fully aware it isn't perfect balance wise as this is a suggestion meant for ruthless iteration, this is why I'm asking what specifically would need to be toned down.

    The roles are actually there to give it a unique role and by removing those properties makes it a generic ship, which is contrary to the idea of it in the first place.

    Essentially what many of your arguments fall down on are that the ship is too different, that it proposes too many new features so it is "overpowered", and that it wanders from what you seem to be acceptable for EVE; Games change, I understand that people are afraid of change, I'm not, EVE needs some fresh air in my opinion.


    If you want to suggest a pirate battleship instead or something more like 'Bastion', go ahead, I prefer this and I suggested this because it is what I would find to be a good role for a Marauder, you disagree and I'm fine with that.

    I ask you, point out specific problems and not wide stretching blanket statements like "flawed in more ways than I can count" "make small ships completely OP"; Your complaints are generic and impossible to address, strike at the jugular and if you can propose counter solutions accordingly.
    Just saying "overpowered" isn't an argument, it is a blanket statement meant to reinforce your opinion without facts, unless you specify.

    If something is meant to give flavour to the ship and enforce a role then that is one of the last things you want to change.


    Instead specify issues with "It shouldn't have X feature because of Y reason(, here is Z proof)(,here is W alternative)."

    It does not need be elaborate nor highly scientific, just not based on blanket statements denouncing everything.


    Respectfully I'll just agree to disagree with you for now.

    The Vargur requires launcher hardpoints, following tempest tradition.
    Cade Windstalker
    #19 - 2013-09-05 08:23:52 UTC
    No, you missunderstand my point. Your bonuses are ridiculous. Compare them to anything in the game and find me a comparable ship that gets even remotely similar bonuses.

    There are none.

    Your proposed ship seems to do everything well and has a response to every situation. This is not balanced. Balance means tradeoffs, which this concept does not have. Just the default ship hull is stronger than any other sub-cap in the game and the rest of your proposals range from the ridiculous (supports a 10 man inty/destroyer fleet... seriously who's going to do this?) to the just plain broken:

    15% reduced capacitor need on all modules.
    100% bonus to the range of Stasis Webifiers.
    50% reduced effect from enemy Stasis Webifier.
    50% reduced effect from enemy Energy Neutralizer and Energy Vampire.

    Any one of these would probably be over-powered by itself except MAYBE the range bonus to webs. Having any two of them on one ship without even tying them to a ship skill is just WTF worthy.

    Also as near as I can tell from your formatting the "Doctrines" only the last bit affects small ships and not all of them even have that note. Take your Guardian Doctrine for example:

    Sol Ranger wrote:
    'GUARDIAN DOCTRINE' tactical doctrine
    [+]400% bonus to Energy Transfer Array range.
    [+]200% bonus to remote armour repairer range.
    [+]200% bonus to shield transporter range.
    [+]20% increased shield, armour and hull resistances.
    [+]25% increased capacitor recharge rate.
    [-]25% reduced damage to all weapon systems.
    [-]25% reduction to large turret tracking.
    [-]25% reduction to cruise missile and torpedo explosion velocity
    [-]50% reduced maximum velocity, mass is increased by a factor of 5, can warp.
    Increases shield, armour and hull resistances of your squad by 20%; Only affects interceptor and destroyer class ships in fleet and within 250km.


    Apparently now Logi can rep from max lock range and do so hilariously well. How is this not broken? Throw one of these in a fleet with any logi ship and it's now god. Throw one in a fleet with a Carrier and I don't even know what to call it.

    Please, do us all a favor and go read some books on Game Design. Then go read CCP's original intent for the T2 ships (specialization).

    This is not specialized, this is a god-ship.
    Gypsio III
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #20 - 2013-09-05 08:27:33 UTC
    It never ceases to impress me how members of the playerbase can come up with such amazingly bad ideas.
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