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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Ravasta Helugo
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1761 - 2013-09-03 16:43:11 UTC
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
nonsciolist wrote:
Maximus Aerelius wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
BASTION MODULE

Provides 30% shield, armor and hull resistances when activated, which function on the same way than Damage Control modules (not stacking penalized)


Do you mean that only one can be fitted per ship and I don't understand the (not stacking penalized) comment. Does this in fact mean that you could fit MOAR THAN ONE and activate two at the same time? *Cue wet pants*.


I guess it means that bonus doesn't have a stacking penalty when used with a damage control.


So the Bastion module gives 30% resists to shields, armor and hull? So if used with a damage controller (60% resists on hull), if it is not stacking penalized, you would have 90% omni hull resists? They seemed to add hull HP to most of them as well. I am thinking there could be some very interesting hull tanking fits for these new marauders. 1 high slot Bastion module, and 1 low slot damage controller, you got 90% resists, throw on a reinforced bulk heads or two, and some hull reps in the mids, that would leave you a lot of slots for damage/targeting mods. To bad it doesn't get a hull repairer bonus, or did I just miss it?

72%, not 90%.
SOL Ranger
Imperial Armed Forces
#1762 - 2013-09-03 16:43:36 UTC
A suggestion for Marauders:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3566921#post3566921

The Vargur requires launcher hardpoints, following tempest tradition.
Silvetica Dian
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#1763 - 2013-09-03 16:58:15 UTC
[quote=Daishan Auergni

May I introduce the concept of the TRIANGLE?

.[/quote]
Because a like wasn't enough

Money at its root is a form of rationing. When the richest 85 people have as much wealth as the poorest 3.5 billion (50% of humanity) it is clear where the source of poverty is. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/20/trickle-down-economics-broken-promise-richest-85
Jan'z Kolna
Society Of Mutual Adoration
#1764 - 2013-09-03 17:08:01 UTC

ma·raud (m-rôd)
v. ma·raud·ed, ma·raud·ing, ma·rauds
v.intr.

To rove and raid in search of plunder.

v.tr.

To raid or pillage for spoils.

[French marauder, from maraud, tomcat, vagabond.]

if you go ahead with this bastion module, then eve marauders need name change , because they won't fit marauder definition in any possible way

call them 'monitors' or something

then make proper marauders that do, you know , marauding
Arya Greywolf
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1765 - 2013-09-03 17:14:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Arya Greywolf
Still waiting on a response to this:

Dear CCP Ytterbium,

What is your reasoning for giving the Vargur a larger drone bay than the Paladin? I don't see any compelling evidence why it should be this way. It should either be even or the Paladin should have the larger drone bay -- for the following reasons:

1) The Vargur has better innate tracking through its bonuses.

2) The Vargur has better tracking through the innate values of autocannons.

3) The Vargur is faster.

4) Amarr are generally 2nd in drones armament (whilst I admit it is the weakest point, it's still one CCP has considered and used as reasoning in the past to justify drone bay allocation).

The points listed above (especially the first 3) lead to one conclusion, to wit: That the Vargur has the greater ability to deal with smaller targets on the field than the Paladin. Why does this matter? Because drones on Battleships are, many times, the one weapon system that saves them from frigates and other targets that get under their tracking.

This is the primary reason why the Talos has a 25 drone bay and the other ABCs do not: it has the shortest range - by far - of all the ABCs and thus the full flight of ECM drones or Warrior IIs give it the extra protection it needs. With the Paladin and Vargur, this range disparity is dissimilar and nearly non-existent. Whilst the Paladin has an optimal bonus, the Vargur has a falloff bonus (and we all know how much falloff Barrage has). Further, with the Bastion module, both boats receive a substantial bonus to optimal and falloff.

And so, my point still stands that the Paladin is more susceptible to smaller targets and therefore should have a larger (or at least equal) drone bay as compared to the Vargur.

Thus, I see no compelling reason why the Paladin should not have the 50mb drone bay and the Vargur a 25mb drone bay -- or at the least they should be equal.

Thanks for reading this, cheers.
Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
#1766 - 2013-09-03 17:26:52 UTC
Please read the OP...

Meet the Mario Kart 8 - Capsuleer Club Cup
Zane Ziebold
Repo Industries
#1767 - 2013-09-03 17:28:56 UTC
Bah Gallente ships should have more drones then other factions it there bread and butter. Shocked
Akrasjel Lanate
Immemorial Coalescence Administration
Immemorial Coalescence
#1768 - 2013-09-03 17:31:12 UTC
Zane Ziebold wrote:
Bah Gallente ships should have more drones then other factions it there bread and butter. Shocked

But it's not a Domi hull ship, Mega hulls fawor guns Blink

CEO of Lanate Industries

Citizen of Solitude
Zor'katar
Matari Recreation
#1769 - 2013-09-03 17:39:15 UTC
Since you're increasing damage projection by 25%, maybe it's fair to increase tractor projection (100% -> 150%) to match? Also, salvage drones are a great match with Marauders. How about giving speed and/or cycle time bonuses for them? (Another good reason to double drone bays, as well.)
Nano Quantum
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1770 - 2013-09-03 17:41:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Nano Quantum
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Yes, this can be used in high-sec of course. You just get a weapon timer (requires security to be turned off though).

Do not underestimate the use of the bastion module, even for missions. The innate tank allows removal of tanking modules on fittings and the projection bonus helps a lot as well. I remember reaching 55-60km falloff on a Null Neutron Blaster Kronos on our internal test server Shocked

Only one bastion module may be fitted, but the resistance given don't stack, just like Damage Control. You can still fit one -with- a damage control though.

Q. Will bastion module/mode have a re-activation cool down? I did not read mention of it in the OP just the activation on time. Will there be capacitor use associated with activating it and running it or will the now stated no activation cost other than fittings stay?
Will activating bastion mode cause one to loose target locks one already has as well as one coming out of bastion do the same?
Will one be able to activate prop mods while in bastion mode as normal?
One will obviously not be able to move since base speed is set at zero, but my question mostly concerns the use of timing prop mods just as one comes out of bastion mode. I was just wondering if it be possible to activate before hand so it be possible to get moving asap.

My current view is that the current plan of no capacitor and fuel costs stay as well as the plan to make that a separate new skill to learn. If anything i think the length of time on bastion mode at max skills is a bit high. Is there a chance that it be be say 45 seconds at max skills for it. Given that the weapons times limits one ability to dock or gate jump it should not matter at 45 seconds to run the risk of the ships becoming actual marauders.
Zane Ziebold
Repo Industries
#1771 - 2013-09-03 17:43:46 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:



  • Gallente Battleship Skill Bonus:
    • 5% bonus to large hybrid weapon damage
    10% bonus to large Hybrid Turret Falloff per level (instead of 10% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level)




Why are you taking away the webbing bonuses, this is why i trained up to fly Marauder in the first place.
Ewersmen
Perkone
Caldari State
#1772 - 2013-09-03 17:51:20 UTC
Marauder for pvp lol

The tank on all marauders is bad ....we don't need a new mode ..just increase the tank ...I fly a golem and I know you have to find the line between tank and dps .

But should I have to find the line ..Its a t2 bs for god sake make the awesome ....not a transformer .
Battle Cube
Cube Collective
#1773 - 2013-09-03 17:54:49 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:
Battle Cube wrote:
when i speak casually of "dps" i mean applied dps.

We realise it is better at projecting its dps, but it has a lower dps Cap
if you are in the correct range with a higher dps ship, you dont have as much projection, but you are still applying more dps because you are in your shorter range. For example, a vindi has very high paper dps but poor projection.... so it moves into position to apply its dps.

So you Can apply more dps in a ship with less projection. At range you wont apply it, and better projection would be better dps, but thats why we move to the correct range

Of course, moving into range takes time, time during which your DPS is poor. Also, we're talking about applied DPS, which is not merely about range, but about landing damage. The Marauders have those nice tracking, explosion velocity, and/or painter bloom bonuses, which mean that any time the target is difficult to hit due to size, transversal, or velocity, the marauders' applied DPS is higher than that from a comparable battleship. What's more, if the marauders' hull bonuses are sufficient to allow good applied DPS without tracking mods or painters, well that frees up fitting for other things.


Exactly. This is also why a Machariel kills things faster than a Malestrom even when their dps numbers are similar or a Navy Raven kills faster than the other missile battleships despite having "the same dps".

This is a very major disconnect between what happens in game and what people say on the forums. it's a major reason why people's predictions about how ships will perform tend to be wrong. DPS isn't just only a guideline it's usually a MISLEADING indicator.


a machariel has higher "paper" dps then a maelstrom......
Nano Quantum
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1774 - 2013-09-03 18:05:17 UTC
Ewersmen wrote:
Marauder for pvp lol

The tank on all marauders is bad ....we don't need a new mode ..just increase the tank ...I fly a golem and I know you have to find the line between tank and dps .

But should I have to find the line ..Its a t2 bs for god sake make the awesome ....not a transformer .

I agree the base tank hp nerf makes these ships more vulnerable to alpha before one can local rep or be rr. If anything a small base increase to their respective tank types and a sensor strength increase of +10 across the class would make them more usable for pvp. The base target range should be increases +10 rather than the five in particular to the ranged weapons type ships like the golem to allow effective on time damage to be applied effectively before you have a swarm of drones eating away.
Battle Cube
Cube Collective
#1775 - 2013-09-03 18:06:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Battle Cube
question for devs:
So for those of us who aren't planning on using bastion mode:

Will non-bastion mode be balanced on its own right against the other ships? Or will non-bastion mode be purposely unbalanced (nerfed) because of the possibility of fitting bastion ?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1776 - 2013-09-03 18:11:46 UTC
Ewersmen wrote:
Marauder for pvp lol

The tank on all marauders is bad ....we don't need a new mode ..just increase the tank ...I fly a golem and I know you have to find the line between tank and dps .

But should I have to find the line ..Its a t2 bs for god sake make the awesome ....not a transformer .


They did buff the tank...
Nano Quantum
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1777 - 2013-09-03 18:15:24 UTC
Battle Cube wrote:
So for those of us who aren't planning on using bastion mode:

Will non-bastion mode be balanced on its own right against the other ships? Or will non-bastion mode be purposely unbalanced (nerfed) because of the possibility of fitting bastion ?

It is nerfed unbalanced for PVP even more so because of the removal/change of bonus to webs on some and drone nerfs across the board not to mention they be even slower. Let us not mention they will be near perma jammed in pvp by light ecm drones in PVP. For PVE use the drones may be an issue for some depending on their fittings and play style and the nerf to their respective main tanks would make them a bit more vulnerable in some cases, but doubtful they be in real danger of being lost less the pilot makes serious mistakes.
CanI haveyourstuff
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1778 - 2013-09-03 18:16:28 UTC  |  Edited by: CanI haveyourstuff
Battle Cube wrote:
Or will non-bastion mode be purposely unbalanced (nerfed) because of the possibility of fitting bastion ?


problably that... it's the CCP way of doing things.


and yeah as someone said, "MARAUDER" name does not fit if you want to make it into tiny cap ship.


Give them god damn tank already, more dps, more everything, more sensor str.. make them worth pvp ships, they are T2 battleships for eff sake.. "MARAUDERSSSSS" mmaaarrraaauuudddeerrrssssss ?!?!?! hello? :D

make them wanted, make them worth 1bil+, make them pvp/pve choise no1 when it comes down to raw dps.
Nano Quantum
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1779 - 2013-09-03 18:19:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Nano Quantum
baltec1 wrote:
Ewersmen wrote:
Marauder for pvp lol

The tank on all marauders is bad ....we don't need a new mode ..just increase the tank ...I fly a golem and I know you have to find the line between tank and dps .

But should I have to find the line ..Its a t2 bs for god sake make the awesome ....not a transformer .


They did buff the tank...

The base tank was nerfed making them more likely to be alpha'd, but the tank on marauders was hardly what was holding them back for pvp.T2 resists would have been welcomed in any case and should be considered to offset of the base tank decrease. The base sensor strength of the ships staying the same is also a huge ???they ought to be made on par with T1 base hulls at the very least.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#1780 - 2013-09-03 18:23:40 UTC
Battle Cube wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:
Battle Cube wrote:
when i speak casually of "dps" i mean applied dps.

We realise it is better at projecting its dps, but it has a lower dps Cap
if you are in the correct range with a higher dps ship, you dont have as much projection, but you are still applying more dps because you are in your shorter range. For example, a vindi has very high paper dps but poor projection.... so it moves into position to apply its dps.

So you Can apply more dps in a ship with less projection. At range you wont apply it, and better projection would be better dps, but thats why we move to the correct range

Of course, moving into range takes time, time during which your DPS is poor. Also, we're talking about applied DPS, which is not merely about range, but about landing damage. The Marauders have those nice tracking, explosion velocity, and/or painter bloom bonuses, which mean that any time the target is difficult to hit due to size, transversal, or velocity, the marauders' applied DPS is higher than that from a comparable battleship. What's more, if the marauders' hull bonuses are sufficient to allow good applied DPS without tracking mods or painters, well that frees up fitting for other things.


Exactly. This is also why a Machariel kills things faster than a Malestrom even when their dps numbers are similar or a Navy Raven kills faster than the other missile battleships despite having "the same dps".

This is a very major disconnect between what happens in game and what people say on the forums. it's a major reason why people's predictions about how ships will perform tend to be wrong. DPS isn't just only a guideline it's usually a MISLEADING indicator.


a machariel has higher "paper" dps then a maelstrom......


Easy test then. Take of damage mods from the mach till it matches the maelstroms dps (replace those damage mods with whatever you like).

Than take both DPS nomalized ships into some kind of pve content. Record which on STILL kills things faster.

Hint, it's name starts with M and ends with achariel.