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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

First post First post First post
Author
Vulfen
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1681 - 2013-09-03 09:36:59 UTC
SOL Ranger wrote:
Crellion wrote:
... or immunity to neuts while in Bastion...



Immunities are only acknowledgements that the mechanics they're trying to avoid are too powerful in general/special circumstance in the first place and to counter them they in that situation make them useless, which is an even worse idea.

Immunities quite literally are anti-balance solutions, this includes the E-war immunity on the 'Bastion'.
Mechanics always need granularity even when you're supposed to have an advantage, Immunity has none, it is absolute and reduces complexity; Even if some E-war is based strictly on RNG I find those mechanics would still be preferred over outright immunities, although not by much.


My suggestions:
  • A significant sensor strength increase would be more fitting on the 'Bastion' towards fighting off E-war than the proposed immunity.
  • A passive 50% reduction to the effectiveness of Neuts/NOS on the Marauder hulls rather than the immunity you proposed.



  • How about something similar to the capacitor battery? Reflect the neut back at say 50% and NoS is negated by 50%

    i also agree the boosting of ewar defence rather than immunity makes more sense, thinking about it in terms of the golem, why would an e-war immune ship get a bonus to an e-war mod (TP) no other deployable ship in the game can do this so i think they need to be in keeping with that.

    I think that a 50% speed decrease and 5x mass multiplier would also be better otherwise if you use these ships in solo pvp, or a small fleet made up of these ships you have to fit a scram and web otherwise everything will escape from you but the armour based ones are a bit lacking on midslots for this, i think the moros + paladin need an extra mid and the vargur and golem need an extra low (cpu mod to fit the ASB) i think it would be better with the 7 highs ( 4 guns 2 utility 1 bastion) which means carebears can still fit a tractor beam and salavager
    Battle Cube
    Cube Collective
    #1682 - 2013-09-03 09:38:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Battle Cube
    baltec1 wrote:
    Battle Cube wrote:
    baltec1 wrote:
    Its amazing to see so many bears screaming for an I win ship with no drawbacks.



    you apparently havent read anything. People arent screaming for an i win ship, people are screaming for a BALANCED ship, that falls into line with ships of comparable isk cost and SP requirement. You be trollin'.


    I have and what they are demanding is indeed as unbalanced as you can get.

    So would you call pirate faction Unbalanced because it is straight up Better than t1? Because part of balance is the isk cost..... and so is the sp requirement. Even if people were screaming for marauders to be THE BEST battleships in ALL TERMS, it would not be unreasonable (due to its massive dual-cost). Poeple are asking for a ship that is not Worse in all scenarios VS pirate faction.
    baltec1
    Bat Country
    Pandemic Horde
    #1683 - 2013-09-03 09:43:05 UTC
    Battle Cube wrote:

    So would you call pirate faction Unbalanced because it is straight up Better than t1? Because part of balance is the isk cost..... and so is the sp requirement. Even if people were screaming for marauders to be THE BEST battleships in ALL TERMS, it would not be unreasonable (due to its massive dual-cost). Poeple are asking for a ship that is not Worse in all scenarios VS pirate faction.


    Isk cost in not part of the balance equation. Pirate battleships will be getting teircided against the t1 battleships just like the frigates have been. We already know the cynable is in line for a nerf.
    Shade Millith
    Tactical Farmers.
    Pandemic Horde
    #1684 - 2013-09-03 09:45:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Shade Millith
    Skia Aumer wrote:
    hmskrecik wrote:
    I guess there is needed something holding it back from becoming "I WIN" button.

    Since when did they become IWIN? They tank better? Alright, but why do I need more tank? Tanking NPCs was not a challenge since... ever, and now we've got MJD, so you can always save your butt if something goes wrong. Hell, I was running angel havens in a freaking Hurricane! And a Dominix can just sit nicely 100 km away, popping up everything. If I bring a carrier - I can wreck havoc and then salvage with ghost-rided Noctis.

    So once again - what's the advantage of Marauders? In bastion or not, they're just inferior.



    I'm gonna set up a macro to just spam this. Because it seems like I need to.

    A tank bonus gives you more damage application, because you're wasting less slots on tank that you could be using for target painters/tracking enhancers/damage mods!! Rather than using 4-5 slots for tank, you can drop it down to 2 or 3.
    Battle Cube
    Cube Collective
    #1685 - 2013-09-03 09:46:32 UTC
    baltec1 wrote:
    Battle Cube wrote:

    So would you call pirate faction Unbalanced because it is straight up Better than t1? Because part of balance is the isk cost..... and so is the sp requirement. Even if people were screaming for marauders to be THE BEST battleships in ALL TERMS, it would not be unreasonable (due to its massive dual-cost). Poeple are asking for a ship that is not Worse in all scenarios VS pirate faction.


    Isk cost in not part of the balance equation. Pirate battleships will be getting teircided against the t1 battleships just like the frigates have been. We already know the cynable is in line for a nerf.


    Ah, thats why frigates cost the same as battleships, and why faction costs the same as t1.

    Man, why havent i been buying all estimels? Probably because i have too many titans. I should probably trash those, they are worthless.
    Skia Aumer
    Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
    #1686 - 2013-09-03 09:47:51 UTC
    baltec1 wrote:
    Isk cost in not part of the balance equation. Pirate battleships will be getting teircided against the t1 battleships just like the frigates have been. We already know the cynable is in line for a nerf.

    :facepalm:
    Have a look at this:
    http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/8742/1/Shiptech_1920.jpg
    Battle Cube
    Cube Collective
    #1687 - 2013-09-03 09:49:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Battle Cube
    Shade Millith wrote:
    Skia Aumer wrote:
    hmskrecik wrote:
    I guess there is needed something holding it back from becoming "I WIN" button.

    Since when did they become IWIN? They tank better? Alright, but why do I need more tank? Tanking NPCs was not a challenge since... ever, and now we've got MJD, so you can always save your butt if something goes wrong. Hell, I was running angel havens in a freaking Hurricane! And a Dominix can just sit nicely 100 km away, popping up everything. If I bring a carrier - I can wreck havoc and then salvage with ghost-rided Noctis.

    So once again - what's the advantage of Marauders? In bastion or not, they're just inferior.



    I'm gonna set up a macro to just spam this. Because it seems like I need to.

    A tank bonus gives you more damage application, because you're wasting less slots on tank that you could be using for target painters/tracking enhancers/damage mods!! Rather than using 4-5 slots for tank, you can drop it down to 2 or 3.


    Meh.... in a shield fit the most of the lows you were using was a damage control, and freeing mids just gets you more damage application but not real damage. So less tank slots on a shield fit marauder just means a little more range on its already high bonuses in bastion mode - so what does this mean? Very little increased dps. I mean, before hand i was using rigs for dps and all lows but maybe 2 on my vargur.

    Additionally if you fit low tank high dps counting on bastion to get your tank to an acceptable level, then when you are not in bastion you are very weak.
    baltec1
    Bat Country
    Pandemic Horde
    #1688 - 2013-09-03 09:53:39 UTC
    Skia Aumer wrote:
    baltec1 wrote:
    Isk cost in not part of the balance equation. Pirate battleships will be getting teircided against the t1 battleships just like the frigates have been. We already know the cynable is in line for a nerf.

    :facepalm:
    Have a look at this:
    http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/8742/1/Shiptech_1920.jpg


    And?

    They are still going to be balanced vs t1 ships.
    Hanna Cyrus
    Spessart Rebellen
    #1689 - 2013-09-03 09:54:12 UTC
    The problem is the Bastion mode. You can't use it, where you want it badly. 60 seconds cycle time! In WH with no local and people that can scan, loot piniata. In o.o and low sec say thank you titan and BO bridge. In high sec, with nerfed ehp, i would never use them again, maybe to be the lol on a killboard...

    For what in hell you need so much tank? incursions runs better with dedicated fleet Pirate BS or VG with fast locking and fast moving ships. In lvl4 you can easily approach the next gate, when all shot down jum instandly in the next pocket, for what the hell i need an MJD? No matter what you think, i think the majority of the real users don't want them this way.

    Fix scan res, maybe a MWD bonus, fix sensor strenght and don't lower drone bandwith, maybe some people use salvage drones? My mates fly often in little fleets with rr in L4s, the noob that flyes with me, can't make anything i have with bastion superior range and he? If he moves, i can't rep him anymore (utilityslots).
    I don't like the idea.

    Please, forget the bastion idea, else make it useful. Shut on/off mechanik, no cycle time. Make scripts for the bastion modul, one to make the class viable for different use PVE/PVP. Don't balance marauders for the AT. In PVP you are the sitting duck, waiting to be bombd or else alphad from a small ABC group.

    I see in this Modul new ways to collapse WHs, to bump freighter or orcas by fair more strenght ever known, this going to be worst. in future you need a bumping marauder for station games, now you can bump caps, yay! sorry, this is what i see this for the bastion thing....
    Roime
    Mea Culpa.
    Shadow Cartel
    #1690 - 2013-09-03 09:54:25 UTC
    Damage application & projection = real damage

    .

    Cassius Invictus
    Viziam
    Amarr Empire
    #1691 - 2013-09-03 09:56:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Cassius Invictus
    Proposition to fix planned marauders:

    1) Remove 7,5 repair amount bonus

    2) Reduce bastion repair amount bonus from 100% to 50%.

    2) Add 4% resist (amarr, caldari) or 7,5 % hp (gallente, minmatar) bonus

    3) Rise base armour/shield resists 10-15%.

    Problem solved.
    Battle Cube
    Cube Collective
    #1692 - 2013-09-03 09:58:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Battle Cube
    i used to joke about how the marauder should be changed into "luxery battleship" because of how it wasnt really very good before... but i would take that now.

    Give us a luxery battleship. More drone space, more utility, more bonuses (tractor beam, salvager.... survey scanner.... i dont know) maybe an ammo bay, maybe a drone loading system from cargo, make it a smooth ride :\

    make bastion mode turn the ship into a concessions stand..... give like 1% fleet boosts..... give it rep bonus...... i dont know

    give bastion mode infinite free fireworks or a built in billboard
    Skia Aumer
    Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
    #1693 - 2013-09-03 10:03:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Skia Aumer
    Shade Millith wrote:
    A tank bonus gives you more damage application, because you're wasting less slots on tank that you could be using for target painters/tracking enhancers/damage mods!! Rather than using 4-5 slots for tank, you can drop it down to 2 or 3.

    You can only fit 3 damage mods and 3 application mods without being stacking penalized severely. They fit well on pirate BS already.
    I see your point, indeed you can save some slots. But for PVE there is not much you can add in there, and using Marauders for PVP is ridiculously stupid.
    marVLs
    #1694 - 2013-09-03 10:04:13 UTC
    Shade Millith wrote:

    A tank bonus gives you more damage application, because you're wasting less slots on tank that you could be using for target painters/tracking enhancers/damage mods!! Rather than using 4-5 slots for tank, you can drop it down to 2 or 3.



    In theory yes, practically nope.

    In LVL4's RNI needs nothing more to buff damage and still will do missions faster because don't need to be immobilized.

    In Incursions (shield HQ, that's biggest community):
    Paladin way worse than Nightmare.
    Kronos way worse than Vindi.
    Golem, could be used thanks to TP bonus and Cruise missile awesome buff, but no use of bastion, and still turrets > missiles in Incursions, so everyone will prefer another Vindi with web bonus, agility, and awesome DPS.
    Vargur? Better use mach, more mobility (vargur bastion will not hold those sites so no buff to range and tracking)
    baltec1
    Bat Country
    Pandemic Horde
    #1695 - 2013-09-03 10:07:10 UTC
    Skia Aumer wrote:
    and using Marauders for PVP is ridiculously stupid.


    Not with these changes its not.
    Mournful Conciousness
    Federal Navy Academy
    Gallente Federation
    #1696 - 2013-09-03 10:09:20 UTC
    Battle Cube wrote:
    i used to joke about how the marauder should be changed into "luxery battleship" because of how it wasnt really very good before... but i would take that now.

    Give us a luxery battleship. More drone space, more utility, more bonuses (tractor beam, salvager.... survey scanner.... i dont know) maybe an ammo bay, maybe a drone loading system from cargo, make it a smooth ride :\

    make bastion mode turn the ship into a concessions stand..... give like 1% fleet boosts..... give it rep bonus...... i dont know


    This is a fun idea. Also, would suggest and on-board cabin for your mission agent so you can accept and complete missions without returning to station.

    Smile

    Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".

    Battle Cube
    Cube Collective
    #1697 - 2013-09-03 10:11:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Battle Cube
    Mournful Conciousness wrote:
    Battle Cube wrote:
    i used to joke about how the marauder should be changed into "luxery battleship" because of how it wasnt really very good before... but i would take that now.

    Give us a luxery battleship. More drone space, more utility, more bonuses (tractor beam, salvager.... survey scanner.... i dont know) maybe an ammo bay, maybe a drone loading system from cargo, make it a smooth ride :\

    make bastion mode turn the ship into a concessions stand..... give like 1% fleet boosts..... give it rep bonus...... i dont know


    This is a fun idea. Also, would suggest and on-board cabin for your mission agent so you can accept and complete missions without returning to station.

    Smile



    AWWWE YEEAAHH add in walk-in-ship, have a little bar, give us a house in there so we can buy furnature and play minecraft in our cabin

    add built in refinery.... add limited docking/repair/fitting services for nubs, add a ship bay.....
    Shade Millith
    Tactical Farmers.
    Pandemic Horde
    #1698 - 2013-09-03 10:15:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Shade Millith
    Battle Cube wrote:

    Meh.... in a shield fit the most of the lows you were using was a damage control, and freeing mids just gets you more damage application but not real damage. So less tank slots on a shield fit marauder just means a little more range on its already high bonuses in bastion mode - so what does this mean? Very little increased dps. I mean, before hand i was using rigs for dps and all lows but maybe 2 on my vargur.
    .



    http://i.imgur.com/5xvLfzP.jpg

    That one slot tank Vargur is going to get the same tank the 3 mid/1 low slot tank Vargur would get.

    And that's not including the 25% falloff bonus from the Bastion mod.
    Aganola
    Ministry of War
    Amarr Empire
    #1699 - 2013-09-03 10:16:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Aganola
    [quote=CCP Ytterbium]
    stuff[/guote]

    I can see, someone has been watching GUNDAM lately. This 'Bastion' module is an echo of Atrhun Zala's Aegis, nice nod, I like it... :-)

    In all seriousness, the Marauders should be that: marauders, harassers, kings of dirty tricks and always a having gun under the table.

    What most people do not realize is that CCP is afraid to boost these ships too much because of current 0.0. I mean, seriously think about it: let loose 250 of these buggers in a fleet and not even Titans will have a fighting chance to survive (guess you should not have had to remove their ability to target subcaps, eh?)

    Still, the biggest winner of the current changes will be the Golem. And the biggest loser will be the Kronos.


    I'd opt to include a SCRIPT into the bastion module: one for damage dealing and one for tanking. It can be run unscripted but then it will be not as specialized.

    Like this:

    Unscripted
    ~~~~~~~~~~
    - +2% bonus to shield/armour/hull resistances per level of bastion skill (skillzz, yeah, we totally need that, ;-) no stacking penalty!)
    - +2% bonus to shield/armour/hull repairers per level
    - +2% bonus to large turret falloff/optimal and missile velocity per level
    - +2% bonus to tracking and explosion velocity per level
    - not immune to EW

    Scripted: damage (battering ram)
    ~~~~~~~~~~
    - +10% bonus to damage of weapons systems per level (no stacking penalty!)
    - +5% bonus to turret tracking and missile explosion velocity per level
    - +5% bonus to large turret falloff/optimal and missile velocity per level
    - NOT immune to EW (!)
    - can be remotely assisted

    Scripted: tank (bastion)
    ~~~~~~~~~~
    - +5% bonus to shield/armour/hull resistances per level (no stacking penalty!)
    - +20% of shield/armour/hull repair amount per level
    - Immune to all forms of EW (yes, including neut)
    - Cannot be remotely assisted (no energy transfer, no remote repairs, no tracking enhancers)

    The rest is the same.
    (Read: immobile, mass x10, 10CPU/100PG, only one per Marauder, 60 sec cycle, cannot be deactivated before that, recieves flag, etc)

    This way we have a heavy hitter OR a heavy tanker, but not both at the same time! You can do Incursions with the battering ram (damage script), or you can do 10/10s of level5s with the bastion (tank script).

    Now, let us look at the ships:
    Changed:
    Bonuses, their dependencies and their effects, read carefully!
    Stats while using the same amount of points

    PALADIN
    ~~~~~~~
    Skill bonuses (Amarr):
    +2% bonus to capacitor capacity and recharge rate per level
    +5% bonus to large energy turret damage per level

    Skill bonuses (Marauder):
    +5% bonus to repair amount, repair speed
    +5% bonus to range and velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level

    Shield/Armour/Hull: 6000/9000/7000


    GOLEM
    ~~~~~
    Skill bonuses (Caldari):
    +2% bonus to to cruise missile/torpedo velocity and cruise missile/torpedo explosion velocity per level
    +5% bonust to large missile damage per level

    Skill bonuses (Marauder):
    +5% bonus to shield boost amount
    +5% bonus to range and effectiveness of target painters per level

    Shield/Armour/Hull: 8100/6000/7000


    KRONOS
    ~~~~~~
    Skill bonuses (Gallente):
    +2% bonus to large hybrid turret tracking rate per level
    +5% bonus to large hybrid turret damage per level

    Skill bonuses (Marauder):
    +5% bonus to repair amount, repair speed of armour per level
    +10% bonus to velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level

    Shield/Armour/Hull: 5900/7500/9000


    VARGUR
    ~~~~~~
    Skill bonuses (Minmatar):
    +2% bonus to large projectile turret falloff rate per level
    +5% bonus to large projectile turret damage per level

    Skill bonuses (Marauder):
    +5% bonus to shield boost amount
    +5% bonus to effectiveness of target painters and range of stasis webifiers per level

    Shield/Armour/Hull: 7500/6500/6400
    CanI haveyourstuff
    Native Freshfood
    Minmatar Republic
    #1700 - 2013-09-03 10:16:43 UTC  |  Edited by: CanI haveyourstuff
    Marauder fleet boost bonuses, that would rock.
    Also what Aganola said.

    anyway that bastion stuff and whatnot changes atm you are planning are just bad
    If you want us to use marauders then they better be worth 1b+

    random ass vindicator can do 2.2k dps, costs 1b+... who the hell would buy marauder instead?