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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1661 - 2013-09-03 07:19:32 UTC
Tepalica wrote:
...

A number of your reasonings seem based on the issues with battleships as a whole and/or current usage with a bit of misapplication of usage information which was aimed at individual stated concerns and stating capabilities as suggested usage cases by CCP.

One important counter point regarding PvE is the idea that increased defensive capabilities on the hull will translate in usage to more gank based fittings with better range of application than their pirate counterparts. With the MJD focus you may well eliminate the need for any tank based fitting save the bare minimums.

Depending on actual results we could wind up with ships that make speed and DPS differences irrelevant since they can reach what they need to from wherever they are and can instantly be where they need to be more often.
Ele Rebellion
Vertex Armada
Man I Love Flying Spaceships
#1662 - 2013-09-03 07:24:30 UTC
I have major concerns about both the PvP and PvE capabilities that the Bastion Marauders will have... I'm going to use the Kronos here as example since it is the one I'm most familiar with.

First off, The damage output seems to be lacking. With max skills there is a 25% bonus plus the 100% role bonus. Apply that to 4 hybrids and you have the equivalent of 10 (4 x 1.25 x 2 = 10). Without any bonus from the bastion module the dps will still still fall behind the Vindicator (8 x 1.375 = 11) .. I know you said you don't want its damage output to surpass the Vindicator, but it wouldn't make sense to me for a ship that goes into a special mode to still fall behind in damage output... Now that with the price comparable to a Vindicator and the fact that it can't receive remote reps, why would anyone take these in a fleet?

Another issue. removing the stasis web bonus and nerfing the drone bay and bandwidth eliminates its use in most level 4 security missions. Reason being is how is this thing supposed to hit a frigate? I thought well just MJD away and then shoot frigates from distance.. but then as I was running a level 4 in my SNI it occured to me.. What would a Kronos pilot do if they were fighting a frigate that had them scrammed and was low on drones. (since to use MJD the Kronos would have to exit Bastion and spool the MJD; making it susceptible to EW) ..without a web bonus it would be near impossible to hit a fast moving frigate.

So what would the use of one of these really be? I can't seem to find one. Some people have suggested POS Bashing in High Sec or SubCap WHs, but wouldn't a buffer shield tanked Vindicator with dps fit (and better drone bay/bandwidth) be more effective with a T2 Logistics cruiser behind it? (I've never seen anyone go POS Bash solo.)

The advantages are of the bastion are Range, EW Immunity, Resist, and self Reps.

Only thing I see that is really going to benefit from this is the Golems. They are keeping their target painter bonus, shield rep bonus, and explosion velocity bonus. Plus gaining the bastion bonuses. Currently my SNI with good skills and a couple implants, Gist X-Type XL shield booster and Gist X-Type XL boost amplifier reps around 1200 every 4 seconds.. those two modules on a Golem in bastion mode with its bonuses (not including the 1.1 10% bonus to that repper) is going to be sitting around 3,500 every 4 secs and will have the range to use Torps in PvE. (not to mention that the 3,500 every 4 seconds only cost around 180GJ per cycle on max skills so it will be EASILY cap stable)

The Paladin is in the same boat as the Kronos. Its loosing stasis web bonuses for more range that it don't really need, and its still lacking in reps and cap (since armor repping ships need 2 reps to even come close to competing with 1 shield rep)

The Vargur is in the middle. Its going to have the Golem's defence and reps, but its still going to have the issues of hitting smaller targets.



CCP, Please take this one back to the drawing boards.. I really want to see the Marauders rebalanced (and I love the idea of a Mini-Dread), but I feel that this isn't the way to do it.




Oh, and almost forgot... Why the HP nerfs to Shields and Armor but bonus to Hull? These things already have WAY less hp than the pirate faction ships... and why does the Kronos have 8600 Hull HP but only 7200 Armor HP if its supposed to be an Armor tank? (Armor repair bonuses)
Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1663 - 2013-09-03 07:30:53 UTC
too many negative posters. I am excited that marauder will be so much different than all the other BS. Even if it suck i dont care , at least it is something new
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1664 - 2013-09-03 07:34:32 UTC
Ele Rebellion wrote:
Another issue. removing the stasis web bonus and nerfing the drone bay and bandwidth eliminates its use in most level 4 security missions. Reason being is how is this thing supposed to hit a frigate? I thought well just MJD away and then shoot frigates from distance.. but then as I was running a level 4 in my SNI it occured to me.. What would a Kronos pilot do if they were fighting a frigate that had them scrammed and was low on drones. (since to use MJD the Kronos would have to exit Bastion and spool the MJD; making it susceptible to EW) ..without a web bonus it would be near impossible to hit a fast moving frigate.
EW wouldn't stop the spool up of the MJD unless it's a scram and at last check rats don't use scrams, just normal points, so even with the EW immunity gone it seems like it shouldn't be an issue.
marVLs
#1665 - 2013-09-03 07:53:40 UTC
Problem is that this concept don't fit anywhere.
Marauders are T2 ships so should be specialized, but Bastion modules won't give anything useful.

I mean in LVL4 RNI will overall be better than them in damage, damage projection, and time. Same with some others navy and pirate ships. No need for more tank.

Incursions - still better pirate ships.

PVP - still useless

WH - too risky and not cost effective to immobilize over 1.5bil ship for 1min

Low/Null - same as above

Srly CCP is afraid to not make them OP but they won't be, they still forget that their costs does not encourage to use them often, no mather what it will be better to bring couple of t1 ships instead of marauder for the same price.

Make them the biggest damage subcaps, so they will be kings of some PVE and useful in PVP.
Crellion
Nano Rhinos
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#1666 - 2013-09-03 08:11:21 UTC
marVLs wrote:
Problem is that this concept don't fit anywhere.
Marauders are T2 ships so should be specialized, but Bastion modules won't give anything useful.

I mean in LVL4 RNI will overall be better than them in damage, damage projection, and time. Same with some others navy and pirate ships. No need for more tank.

Incursions - still better pirate ships.

PVP - still useless

WH - too risky and not cost effective to immobilize over 1.5bil ship for 1min

Low/Null - same as above

Srly CCP is afraid to not make them OP but they won't be, they still forget that their costs does not encourage to use them often, no mather what it will be better to bring couple of t1 ships instead of marauder for the same price.

Make them the biggest damage subcaps, so they will be kings of some PVE and useful in PVP.


Pretty much, either this or immunity to neuts while in Bastion... otherwise dont bother...
Vidar Kentoran
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1667 - 2013-09-03 08:45:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Vidar Kentoran
If you're going to persist with this Bastion mode stuff, please at least lower the cycle time to something that at least has the POTENTIAL to survive in nullsec and lowsec, like, say, 15 seconds. I mean, 15 is still probably too risky(align time still means you'll probably die 80-90% of the time an enemy shows up in local), but at least it makes it conceivable.

You can't use this mode in pve anywhere except highsec missions because it makes you into a sitting duck, 60 seconds or even 45 seconds is around 5x as much time as is needed to drop a carrier on you or just lock you down.

I dunno what the point of discussing it in the context of pvp is, the price/performance of one of these ships in pvp is absolutely awful compared to a dread or carrier. There's no real point in fielding them except for the lulz, they're trivially neuted to death and Bastion mode is just 'well guess what im a sniping bs that is literally incapable of warping out' for 1B+.
Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
#1668 - 2013-09-03 08:46:59 UTC
Well, this winter's gonna get pretty cold from the looks of it. Marauders' base stats getting nerfed/useful bonuses getting removed and given a mod that makes them minute-long bulls-eyes and gives them little to offer in PVE outside of...wait for it...you guessed it, MOAR TANK.

"Tomahawks?"

"----in' A, right?"

"Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each."

"----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
Gluten Free Cartel
#1669 - 2013-09-03 09:00:30 UTC  |  Edited by: hmskrecik
Large Collidable Object wrote:
you did a pretty great job at not making any T2 ship better than T1, tbh

TBH, if they did, why would you fly T1 ships anymore? You want tiers back?

Hanna Cyrus wrote:
Sorry, the problem is the "bastion" cycle time. 60 seconds are too long for many things you can do.

I guess there is needed something holding it back from becoming "I WIN" button.
SOL Ranger
Imperial Armed Forces
#1670 - 2013-09-03 09:06:29 UTC
Crellion wrote:
... or immunity to neuts while in Bastion...



Immunities are only acknowledgements that the mechanics they're trying to avoid are too powerful in general/special circumstance in the first place and to counter them they in that situation make them useless, which is an even worse idea.

Immunities quite literally are anti-balance solutions, this includes the E-war immunity on the 'Bastion'.
Mechanics always need granularity even when you're supposed to have an advantage, Immunity has none, it is absolute and reduces complexity; Even if some E-war is based strictly on RNG I find those mechanics would still be preferred over outright immunities, although not by much.


My suggestions:
  • A significant sensor strength increase would be more fitting on the 'Bastion' towards fighting off E-war than the proposed immunity.
  • A passive 50% reduction to the effectiveness of Neuts/NOS on the Marauder hulls rather than the immunity you proposed.

    • The Vargur requires launcher hardpoints, following tempest tradition.
    marVLs
    #1671 - 2013-09-03 09:15:59 UTC
    Pssst... hey kid... do You want module that gives you over 9000! reps when You need only 500?

    Here You goCool ... totally useless Cry
    Roime
    Mea Culpa.
    Shadow Cartel
    #1672 - 2013-09-03 09:20:17 UTC
    Yeah no more than 500hp/s is ever needed in any PVE

    Source: anon hisec scrub

    .
    Shade Millith
    Tactical Farmers.
    Pandemic Horde
    #1673 - 2013-09-03 09:22:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Shade Millith
    nahjustwarpin wrote:
    omg this ship will be so OP because it can tank first spawn in vanguard!

    I think most people will just sell their marauders after the rebalancing nerf or just leave it as hangar queen.

    83 pages and mostly posts about a fail attempt. CCP will just do what they want because hey, it tanks so much!


    Why would a person that owns a Golem or a Vargur stop using them? Without the Bastian mode, they're pretty much the same ship they were before.


    Sobaan Tali wrote:
    Well, this winter's gonna get pretty cold from the looks of it. Marauders' base stats getting nerfed/useful bonuses getting removed and given a mod that makes them minute-long bulls-eyes and gives them little to offer in PVE outside of...wait for it...you guessed it, MOAR TANK.


    More tank means less slots used for tank. Less slots used for tank mean more slots used for damage application.

    marVLs wrote:

    I mean in LVL4 RNI will overall be better than them in damage, damage projection, and time. Same with some others navy and pirate ships. No need for more tank.


    With 30% more resists, and 100% boost amount out of the bastian, a Golem is going to be able to use a 2 midslot tank, and still get 600 - 700 DPS active tank. That leaves it with up to 5 midslots free for bonused target painters. Most likely 4, because a MJD would be very useful for moving around the field.

    I don't know how many your standard RNI would use, but I doubt it's more than two. Those TPs are going to make the Golem is going to be hitting cruisers a hell of a lot harder. And will have the extra 25% range bonus





    TL:DR A tank bonus gives you more damage application, because you're wasting less slots on tank that you could be using for target painters/tracking enhancers/damage mods!! If a 800 DPS tank is what you're after, only an idiot is going to let the tank bloat out to 2000 DPS with wasted slots.

    Thread is filled with unimaginative people.
    Shade Millith
    Tactical Farmers.
    Pandemic Horde
    #1674 - 2013-09-03 09:23:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Shade Millith
    EDIT : Pushed wrong button.
    Tyberius Franklin
    Federal Navy Academy
    Gallente Federation
    #1675 - 2013-09-03 09:28:03 UTC
    marVLs wrote:
    Pssst... hey kid... do You want module that gives you over 9000! reps when You need only 500?

    Here You goCool ... totally useless Cry

    If you are using the same tank fitting with the mod as you are without, you aren't a good judge of what is useless and what isn't.
    Battle Cube
    Cube Collective
    #1676 - 2013-09-03 09:29:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Battle Cube
    please at least give the ship normal t2 resists, and then reduce the bonus from the bastion module so the non-bastion mode will be more balanced....

    it seems that Not using the bastion module should be a legitimate choice. So im guessing the ship is going to go forth as is with little change.(i have pretty much given up hope ) I am not a fan of the bastion mode. But thats fine - someone will use it. I would like to use the nonbastion mode of this ship



    My question is: Will the non-bastion mode of this ship be balanced in its own right? Or will it be (by design) nerfed because of how op ccp thinks bastion mode is?
    baltec1
    Bat Country
    Pandemic Horde
    #1677 - 2013-09-03 09:30:31 UTC
    Its amazing to see so many bears screaming for an I win ship with no drawbacks.
    Battle Cube
    Cube Collective
    #1678 - 2013-09-03 09:32:32 UTC
    baltec1 wrote:
    Its amazing to see so many bears screaming for an I win ship with no drawbacks.



    you apparently havent read anything. People arent screaming for an i win ship, people are screaming for a BALANCED ship, that falls into line with ships of comparable isk cost and SP requirement. You be trollin'.
    Skia Aumer
    Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
    #1679 - 2013-09-03 09:34:41 UTC
    hmskrecik wrote:
    I guess there is needed something holding it back from becoming "I WIN" button.

    Since when did they become IWIN? They tank better? Alright, but why do I need more tank? Tanking NPCs was not a challenge since... ever, and now we've got MJD, so you can always save your butt if something goes wrong. Hell, I was running angel havens in a freaking Hurricane! And a Dominix can just sit nicely 100 km away, popping up everything. If I bring a carrier - I can wreck havoc and then salvage with ghost-rided Noctis.

    So once again - what's the advantage of Marauders? In bastion or not, they're just inferior.
    baltec1
    Bat Country
    Pandemic Horde
    #1680 - 2013-09-03 09:35:46 UTC
    Battle Cube wrote:
    baltec1 wrote:
    Its amazing to see so many bears screaming for an I win ship with no drawbacks.



    you apparently havent read anything. People arent screaming for an i win ship, people are screaming for a BALANCED ship, that falls into line with ships of comparable isk cost and SP requirement. You be trollin'.


    I have and what they are demanding is indeed as unbalanced as you can get.