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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Cade Windstalker
#1621 - 2013-09-03 02:39:16 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:

How to wreck things in missions?

Warp in, activate Bastion, use extra projection with Null to smash frigate NPCs while they are closing in (I usually have transversal or radial velocity as overview column to know which ones I should shoot first). Once they're orbiting and you can't hit them anymore, smash cruisers and higher NPCs with Null or Navy Antimatter depending on range. Optional: use drones to kill frigates while dealing with bigger NPCs. Shooting frigates with blasters is a waste when you can let drones do it while you waste other targets.

If all that's left are frigates orbiting you and don't want drones to be shot, wait for Bastion mode to run out (best to anticipate one cycle in advance so you don't have to wait), activate MJD. At 100km away, activate Bastion again, wait for them to come in and smash them to pieces. Sure, you aren't going to do full damage in falloff, but even at 60-70km, all it takes is a single good hit on 4 grouped blasters to wreck them.

Having some battleship NPCs sitting at long range? (quite rare) At more than 50km, use MJD, turn around, then MWD. Less than 50km, just MWD. Funniest moment was the Serpentis / Guristas 120km spawn in Worlds Collide level 4 first room. Jumped straight into the Guristas spawn, then activated Bastion: laughed as they helplessly tried to jam my Kronos while I smashed them to bit at close range. Pay back time for the 1346321 times I got helplessly jammed. That was just my own experience here, your mileage may vary, of course.


So, it occurred to me that there's sort of this weird dichotomy with the Bastion module for missions.

You have this absolutely godly tank but you have a suggested mission setup that doesn't even really need the tank to be effective. You jump out to the point where you're out of range of all but the most annoying Guristas rats in an already tank bonused ship and start blapping things off the field with your awesome damage application.

This is great except that you don't need the tank to do it and having an awesome tank makes you want to use said tank, which means sitting next to things and shooting them while laughing like a maniac.

Right now between the MJD, the resists, and the range you could pretty much strip the 100% repair bonus straight off in favor of even more range and end up with an overall better setup for high sec missions and probably even most low or null sec pockets, especially if there's a gate into the room since someone warping in on you is now ~120km away and in range of higher damage weapons than they can bring to bear at that range.

Closer in drones and tracking becomes more of a factor while the range becomes less so. Perhaps some sort of script for the Bastion Transformathingie(tm) that lets you swap tank and tracking for range?

Alternatively have equipping the module reduce your drone-bay size so the ships have more flexibility without the module.

(I'm certainly not advocating for the return of the web bonus)
Battle Cube
Cube Collective
#1622 - 2013-09-03 02:42:08 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Battle Cube wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
The rage from the pve crowd is hilarious in here.


i'm part of that PVe crowd and I'm not raging. I'm confused.

Confused at how CCP can bascially THROW overpower pve ships at PVE players and those pve players not be smart ebough to see the gift their being given. In the same way so many people were dead wrong about the Navy ship reblancing (which turned out to be beyond awesome), they're wrong about this.

I mean really, incursion runners can't figure out that 10 sieged Maruders will have higher VG completion times than the current 7 dps ships + 3 logi (and none of this stops anyone from continuing to use Pirtat ships for HQs)? Null PVE's can't understand that Marauders would be able to devote more room to tracking mods because of elss need for tank on top of the other application bonuses that will make short work of everything from forsaken hubs and up? Complex runners don't get how you can solo tank a citidel torp with a standing still BS, ignore all the dps, kill the stations, loot with 40km tractor and worp off? No even gonna mention lvl 5 missions.

I'm serious when i say that any PVEr complaining about what ccp is doing is simply and incredibly uncreative. This is why ccp tends to ignore imput, because time and time and time and time again the players have been wrong about the outcome of changes.


current VG fleets are 2 logi not 3, (it is even possible to do vgs with just 1 logi )and the range is such that extra projection will not be enough to make the massive dps of pirate ships any less than a fleet of marauders without logies.


So TWO more dps ships won't matter? And Blapping frigs with ACs instead of 3-2-2 arties from machs (think rate of fire)?

What VGs are you flying in?

No, you're simply looking for a reason to dislike the changes, the truth is that these new maruaders will probably lead to isk inflation as people discover what you can do with them.


not 2 ships when you are getting lower dps from each. And arties are rarely used in VGs

And you couldnt be further from the truth - i WANT to LOVE these changes, because i want to fly a vargur, i have vargurs on 4 toons and i wanted to train the rest into them, i want a reason to fly them.
Cade Windstalker
#1623 - 2013-09-03 02:42:16 UTC
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
Daishan Auergni wrote:
I've seen a bunch of ppl complain that the MJD isn't suited for lvl4 gates because the gates aren't exactly 100KM off...

May I introduce the concept of the TRIANGLE? 3-sided shape. Should be familiar. Pick an acute angle such that jumping BACK will make the 3rd leg of the triangle whatever distance you need? I know. Takes some reckoning skill but surely it's better than doing 6KM/minute (~100m/s). With some practice jumping twice will land you on a gate or wreck or whatever in 2 minutes.


if I jump 100km from the warp in then I'm probably doing less dps to the npcs, it is probably better to warp in and use an AB or MWD to approach the gate while shooting the npcs. the triangle is useful when afking with a domi or rattler, but a marauder not so much.



Hence the range bonus. Also nothing forces you to jump so you're 100km away from the rats, you can always jump so you're actually closer to them or more able to apply better damage, hence the damage projection bonus on the Bastion module.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1624 - 2013-09-03 02:42:39 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Eterne
*please do not empty quote, even yourself* - CCP Eterne

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Battle Cube
Cube Collective
#1625 - 2013-09-03 02:47:52 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
Daishan Auergni wrote:
I've seen a bunch of ppl complain that the MJD isn't suited for lvl4 gates because the gates aren't exactly 100KM off...

May I introduce the concept of the TRIANGLE? 3-sided shape. Should be familiar. Pick an acute angle such that jumping BACK will make the 3rd leg of the triangle whatever distance you need? I know. Takes some reckoning skill but surely it's better than doing 6KM/minute (~100m/s). With some practice jumping twice will land you on a gate or wreck or whatever in 2 minutes.


if I jump 100km from the warp in then I'm probably doing less dps to the npcs, it is probably better to warp in and use an AB or MWD to approach the gate while shooting the npcs. the triangle is useful when afking with a domi or rattler, but a marauder not so much.



Hence the range bonus. Also nothing forces you to jump so you're 100km away from the rats, you can always jump so you're actually closer to them or more able to apply better damage, hence the damage projection bonus on the Bastion module.



right..... the ship gets a bonus to MJD so you can move... now you are out of range.... give projection bonus to fix problem we created for ship.....
Cade Windstalker
#1626 - 2013-09-03 02:50:53 UTC
Battle Cube wrote:
not 2 ships when you are getting lower dps from each. And arties are rarely used in VGs

And you couldnt be further from the truth - i WANT to LOVE these changes, because i want to fly a vargur, i have vargurs on 4 toons and i wanted to train the rest into them, i want a reason to fly them.


There is actually a Vanguard fleet doctrine where you use Sensor boosted Arty Macheriels and only one Logi. The fleet focuses on OTAs and NMCs where things spawn out at long range and alphas them before they can get close. Not something for newbies since you have to coordinate damage a bit but pretty good.
Cade Windstalker
#1627 - 2013-09-03 02:54:07 UTC
Battle Cube wrote:

right..... the ship gets a bonus to MJD so you can move... now you are out of range.... give projection bonus to fix problem we created for ship.....


It's not a problem, it allows you to more effectively pop rats by better applying your damage to them. Sniping from range is great if you can deal good damage at that range which range bonuses help you do.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#1628 - 2013-09-03 03:12:24 UTC
CEALAlatriste wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:


So TWO more dps ships won't matter? And Blapping frigs with ACs instead of 3-2-2 arties from machs (think rate of fire)?

What VGs are you flying in?



100 MicroWarpDrive Pirate Hull VG Fleet. You can stay at beacon in bastion mode blapping the frigates of the first spawn. Meanwhile mwd fleet moves to 2º and 3º spawn killing all the sanshas at optimal close range (way more effective dps than projected) before your bastion marauder fleet can even target them, because your sensor sucks and even with a sensor booster a marauder is slower than a pirate ship (yeah, pirate ships fit sebo too).

Thats for Overray Transfer Array. In Nation Mining Colony is same history: your bastion marauder fleet stays at beacon meanwhile mwd fleet moves to next spawns, everything is dead before you can target, bla bla bla. But, when every sansha is dead you have to put 255 units of lyavite in a can that is 80km away. You dont have logis, so a marauder uses its mjd to get there. First you must get your normal status, because you cant use mjd in bastion mode. Also, you cant do it in one jump because will overshoot the can by 20km and slowboating is not an option. So you do triangulation (or whatever) to get there in 2 mjd jumps.

Meanwhile, the scimitar of mwd fleet started its burn towards the can in the last spawn, and its already there when the last sansha dies. The fleet alings to next site and the logi drops the ore. The marauder fleet is still in bastion mode when the mwd fleet lands in next site.

And finally, the Nation Commander Outpost. Well, you think, my bastion marauder fleet is going to own you here, because there is no where to go. No cans, no towers to approach to, only 4 massive frigate spawns from everywhere in the room so everybody stands still in a NCO.

And the race begins. MWD fleet targets and tries to kill as many sanshas as possible meanwhile bastion marauder fleet is still in transformation, they are so cool.... But the transformation ends and boom: 1 sansha get down, boom 2º sansha, 3º ,4º... every shoot of bastion marauder fleet is blapping a sansha frig, deleting 1/3 of the spawn.

But the other 2/3 is already orbiting very close to you with mwd on at 1500m/s. Dont worry, we will use our webs to... oh wait! you dont have web bonus. Nevermind, nobody uses webs in contest because they boost our dps and the enemy fleet dps too. So we will blap that sansha with our superior tracking marauder bonus... oh wait! their vindicators have the same tracking bonus than our marauders and they also have 2 logistics with 6 faction tracking links that boost the other ships with 35% more tracking each.

So yeah, you lose. Again.

Next time play the thing before write a theorical opinion about it.

Regards.


Yep, we'll see who loses. How much you wanna bet we see some maurder VG fleets? I just 2 or 3 thouand isk laying around somewhere.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#1629 - 2013-09-03 03:15:07 UTC
Battle Cube wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Battle Cube wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
The rage from the pve crowd is hilarious in here.


i'm part of that PVe crowd and I'm not raging. I'm confused.

Confused at how CCP can bascially THROW overpower pve ships at PVE players and those pve players not be smart ebough to see the gift their being given. In the same way so many people were dead wrong about the Navy ship reblancing (which turned out to be beyond awesome), they're wrong about this.

I mean really, incursion runners can't figure out that 10 sieged Maruders will have higher VG completion times than the current 7 dps ships + 3 logi (and none of this stops anyone from continuing to use Pirtat ships for HQs)? Null PVE's can't understand that Marauders would be able to devote more room to tracking mods because of elss need for tank on top of the other application bonuses that will make short work of everything from forsaken hubs and up? Complex runners don't get how you can solo tank a citidel torp with a standing still BS, ignore all the dps, kill the stations, loot with 40km tractor and worp off? No even gonna mention lvl 5 missions.

I'm serious when i say that any PVEr complaining about what ccp is doing is simply and incredibly uncreative. This is why ccp tends to ignore imput, because time and time and time and time again the players have been wrong about the outcome of changes.


current VG fleets are 2 logi not 3, (it is even possible to do vgs with just 1 logi )and the range is such that extra projection will not be enough to make the massive dps of pirate ships any less than a fleet of marauders without logies.


So TWO more dps ships won't matter? And Blapping frigs with ACs instead of 3-2-2 arties from machs (think rate of fire)?

What VGs are you flying in?

No, you're simply looking for a reason to dislike the changes, the truth is that these new maruaders will probably lead to isk inflation as people discover what you can do with them.


not 2 ships when you are getting lower dps from each. And arties are rarely used in VGs

And you couldnt be further from the truth - i WANT to LOVE these changes, because i want to fly a vargur, i have vargurs on 4 toons and i wanted to train the rest into them, i want a reason to fly them.


lower but BETTER applied DPS. For some reason people couldn't understand that exact same point when CCP changed the navy raven.

it's like history keeps repeating itself on this forum lol.

It's all good, I think things will turn out fine.
Battle Cube
Cube Collective
#1630 - 2013-09-03 03:26:19 UTC
when i speak casually of "dps" i mean applied dps.

We realise it is better at projecting its dps, but it has a lower dps Cap
if you are in the correct range with a higher dps ship, you dont have as much projection, but you are still applying more dps because you are in your shorter range. For example, a vindi has very high paper dps but poor projection.... so it moves into position to apply its dps.

So you Can apply more dps in a ship with less projection. At range you wont apply it, and better projection would be better dps, but thats why we move to the correct range
Battle Cube
Cube Collective
#1631 - 2013-09-03 03:29:20 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Battle Cube wrote:
not 2 ships when you are getting lower dps from each. And arties are rarely used in VGs

And you couldnt be further from the truth - i WANT to LOVE these changes, because i want to fly a vargur, i have vargurs on 4 toons and i wanted to train the rest into them, i want a reason to fly them.


There is actually a Vanguard fleet doctrine where you use Sensor boosted Arty Macheriels and only one Logi. The fleet focuses on OTAs and NMCs where things spawn out at long range and alphas them before they can get close. Not something for newbies since you have to coordinate damage a bit but pretty good.


trufax.

MBizon Osis
Doomheim
#1632 - 2013-09-03 03:34:33 UTC  |  Edited by: MBizon Osis
Looks like what happened in that last big round of cap nerfbatmadness. http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/capital-ship-balancing/
Cept this time the hulls are getting nerfed before any testing based player feedback of any kind, the (mini-dred nick name) is so apt its getting dred like nerfs before the mini-seige mod is tested in game.
Nerfbat the drone bandwith and bay cap: check
Nerfbat the Shield, Armor and or Hull hitpoints: check
Nerfbat hull speed to match caps: check
I might be the only one to see it this way. And if CCP will do that to the player base that worked to the top levels of ships eve has to offer then there is no real hope of this not being forced on the marauder class.

The Web bonus is what gave this class a "place" in incursions and made missioning a little less painful after the rat AI changes is going away why? Was it OverPowering eve? And I guess the rat faction battleships are in for their own time in the nerfbatting cage, prolly wont keep the vindicator's web bonus either.

This Bastion mod could be kool new content to the game and is the kind of stuff I want to see CCP working on. But why wipe out a ship class to bring it in game? Can't you make a new Micro Jumpy/baby-dred class of T2 BS? (Thank you for the notepad it saved this from a disco.) Is it that hard to make more new ship types in eve rather than transforming already exsting content? And unlike some types I am prety sure you dont have a vast amount of complants about the marauder class being over powered. If anything they needed and tweek here and there in the other direction (noctis like bonus for the utility highs and more sensor strength) IMHO.

after 80 some pages of posts I have to wounder how many are by accounts that have not even skilled to marauders? Are just trolling? And the massive amount of stats, perfomance reviews, mission tactics and fleet doctrone for a mod no player has even seen yet never mind tried in game. The heated aurguments over maby and might and what ifs is wild to me lol)
Yes I like paladins. I am fired up over this. Think this is bad? Why do I have the feeling what is comming for the rat faction BSs is going to blow the roof off this place?
CueCue QQ
Trypophobia Transit Nexus
#1633 - 2013-09-03 03:37:41 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
if we ever did, it would be by severely penalizing turret tracking / missile explosion velocity when in Bastion mode, which would severally limit their use in PvE.


Can we do this then? Or maybe make the Bastion module scripted so we can have either the tanked version with damage projection, or the DPS version with a loss of tracking, and not giving the tank bonuses?
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1634 - 2013-09-03 03:41:57 UTC
Battle Cube wrote:
when i speak casually of "dps" i mean applied dps.

We realise it is better at projecting its dps, but it has a lower dps Cap
if you are in the correct range with a higher dps ship, you dont have as much projection, but you are still applying more dps because you are in your shorter range. For example, a vindi has very high paper dps but poor projection.... so it moves into position to apply its dps.

So you Can apply more dps in a ship with less projection. At range you wont apply it, and better projection would be better dps, but thats why we move to the correct range

And have you taken into account the time you spend moving into position? That's time spent not applying optimal DPS.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Battle Cube
Cube Collective
#1635 - 2013-09-03 03:49:37 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Battle Cube wrote:
when i speak casually of "dps" i mean applied dps.

We realise it is better at projecting its dps, but it has a lower dps Cap
if you are in the correct range with a higher dps ship, you dont have as much projection, but you are still applying more dps because you are in your shorter range. For example, a vindi has very high paper dps but poor projection.... so it moves into position to apply its dps.

So you Can apply more dps in a ship with less projection. At range you wont apply it, and better projection would be better dps, but thats why we move to the correct range

And have you taken into account the time you spend moving into position? That's time spent not applying optimal DPS.


generally speaking, you arent moving into optimal, you are staying in optimal. That is to say, you move once at the beginning, then keep at range.

And a ship that has to stay still is still going to be losing dps when the OTHER party moves....
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#1636 - 2013-09-03 03:50:57 UTC  |  Edited by: DarthNefarius
CCP Ytterbium wrote:

Oh yes, and forgot to mention with a proper deadspace X-L shield booster and a good tank, a single Vargur or Golem can tank the first wave of a Vanguard Incursion by itself. Sure, damage isn't that good when you do (you can't use cap booster, go through charges too fast, thus have to go for cap stable Evil), but the fact remains it's still possible. Even discussing that very fact with other designers as it most likely is far too OP for PvE.



So Armour Maurder fleets are screwed out of Vanguards the only place where they have an advantage ( and only in NCO's to boot)?
Why does CCP hate Armour?
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Battle Cube
Cube Collective
#1637 - 2013-09-03 03:52:45 UTC
DarthNefarius wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:

Oh yes, and forgot to mention with a proper deadspace X-L shield booster and a good tank, a single Vargur or Golem can tank the first wave of a Vanguard Incursion by itself. Sure, damage isn't that good when you do (you can't use cap booster, go through charges too fast, thus have to go for cap stable Evil), but the fact remains it's still possible. Even discussing that very fact with other designers as it most likely is far too OP for PvE.



So Armour fleets are screwed out of Vanguards the only place where they have an advantage ( andonly in NCO's to boot)?
Why does CCP hate Armour?



well... the reason armor isnt as popular is because armor tank is in low slot, same place where you get damage boosts, and incursions especially are all about higher dps and minimal tank. Its not really ccp hating armor, its just inherent in the mods unless they made midslot damage mods, tracking computers can only do so much
CEALAlatriste
Taberna del Turco
#1638 - 2013-09-03 03:54:28 UTC  |  Edited by: CEALAlatriste
Jenn aSide wrote:
Yep, we'll see who loses. How much you wanna bet we see some maurder VG fleets? I just 2 or 3 thouand isk laying around somewhere.


I dont have to, im already winning. That MWD pirate hull VG fleet is real, and the best all around VG fleet you can get. The bastion marauder VG fleet is just an idea, for now.

Anyways, after all that explanation i did, why do you think your bastion marauder fleet is as good as or better than mwd pirate hull fleet? I would like something more than "we'll see who loses"

Because i asked myself and:

- ¿will they have more dps than us? em... no. I dont care about projected dps if i have more and always shoot in optimal range.
- ¿will they have more tracking than us? em..... no. We have the same bonus (vindi) and logis with faction tracking links.
- ¿will they have web bonus as us? em.... no
- ¿are they more mobile than us? em.... no. In normal mode are slower and in bastion mode dont move. MJD overshoot them out of grid or takes 2 or 3 micro jumps to get in place.
- ¿can they deploy more drone power than us? em... no. Their drone bay its smaller and cant deploy sentries in NCO
- ¿why do they think they can win a contest? I dont know.

Regards.
Battle Cube
Cube Collective
#1639 - 2013-09-03 03:59:11 UTC
CEALAlatriste wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Yep, we'll see who loses. How much you wanna bet we see some maurder VG fleets? I just 2 or 3 thouand isk laying around somewhere.


I dont have to, im already winning. That MWD pirate hull VG fleet is real, and the best all around VG fleet you can get. The bastion marauder VG fleet is just an idea, for now.

Anyways, after all that explanation i did, why do you think your bastion marauder fleet is as good as or better than mwd pirate hull fleet? I would like something more than "we'll see who loses"

Because i asked myself and:

- ¿will they have more dps than us? em... no. I dont care about projected dps if i have more and always shoot in optimal range.
- ¿will they have more tracking than us? em..... no. We have the same bonus (vindi) and logis with faction tracking links.
- ¿will they have web bonus as us? em.... no
- ¿are they more mobile than us? em.... no. In normal mode are slower and in bastion mode dont move. MJD overshoot them out of grid or takes 2 or 3 micro jumps to get in place.
- ¿can they deploy more drone power than us? em... no. Their drone bay its smaller and cant deploy sentries in NCO
- ¿why do they think they can win a contest? I dont know.

Regards.



Well they do have 1 thing going for them: They wouldnt have to move during the site. So i guess it would be easier because they dont have to move? Thats the only advantage i see
CEALAlatriste
Taberna del Turco
#1640 - 2013-09-03 04:04:30 UTC
but they HAVE TO move in a NMC or they'll never finish the site without logi to carry on the ore.... and in ASS and HQ bastion marauders are useless because cant get RR, i dont think they can tank full room aggro TCRC